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Comment by pjc50 | Hacker News Reader

Yes. This should be seen in the context of the huge set of anti-trans laws and the Florida book banning. There is going to be another attempt at making it illegal for kids to hear about non-straight people at all. And outing kids to their parents, even at risk of violence, is a part of that.

The "land of free speech" always has a big "not you" exemption that can be wielded against people who aren't WASPy enough.

Edit: see the absolutely huge number of people on HN downthread cheering this on because they hate Facebook. Strange world.

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> The "land of free speech" always has a big "not you" exemption that can be wielded against people who aren't WASPy enough

WASPs are the ones pushing pornographic books in schools. Florida is one of the most diverse states in the country.

Neither of those things are true? The books being banned are not pornographic?

“WASP” has the specific connotation of northeastern white people of longstanding American lineage. (The term typically excludes southern and Appalachian whites that technically also are Anglo Saxon and Protestant.) Those people are the vanguard of social liberalism today, in states like Massachusetts and Connecticut.

In Florida, meanwhile, non-Hispanic whites are just 51% of the population (versus 65-70% in Massachusetts and Connecticut). And the white people who are there aren’t really “WASPs” in the typical sense of the word. DeSantis, of course, isn’t a WASP at all. He’s a Catholic. American social conservatism is primarily a coalition of southern whites, “ethnic whites” (German, Italian, and Irish), and Hispanics—none of whom were traditionally considered “WASPs.”

The books are absolutely pornographic: https://www.ibtimes.sg/texas-school-sparks-outrage-after-mom.... They contain graphic depictions of underage people engaged in sex acts.

The graphic depiction of underage people engaged in sex acts is against federal law and most likely Texas law as well. It is baffling to me how the media depicts this as "anti trans" or "anti lgbt" book banning while managing to never mention the specifics of the books.

I'm about as liberal as they come on social issues. But I don't think these books are appropriate in an elementary or middle school library.

> It is baffling to me how the media depicts this as "anti trans" or "anti lgbt" book banning while managing to never mention the specifics of the books.

It’s because a lot of people are using a small number of sexual minorities as a pretext for encouraging everyone’s kids to explore their sexuality.

Are all the books being banned pornographic? Is this a way for people to get some books that maybe should be banned but then go after books where gays and trans people are shown in a positive light?

It’s specifically a reaction to the American Library Association giving “Gender Queer” one of its top awards for the age 12-18 category. It revealed that the librarians teaching your kids are a lot more progressive about kids exploring their sexuality than even Obama-voting parents who support equal civil rights but still hold traditional beliefs about sex being shameful and something children should be protected from. That’s why republicans were able to leverage the issue in places like Florida and Virginia—places that often swing blue due to large Hispanic and Asian populations, who also happen to be pretty conservative on sexual issues.

" It revealed that the librarians teaching your kids are a lot more progressive about kids exploring their sexuality than even Obama-voting parents w"

Source? I ask because I didn't know librarians teach kids

Do you have a kid (or remember being one)? We had scheduled trips to the library and librarians were actively involved in recommending books, both to individuals and in terms of reading lists.

I don't but let me back up, I'm not doubting that happened. Can you provide a source for when a librarian taught sexed or something along those lines to kids?

How does banning books fix this? Was the person following the library's guidelines?

My third grader came home with a Pride sticker. To be clear, we have always told her that "sometimes kids have two mommies or two daddies and that's okay." But Pride also is wrapped up in a general positive and open attitude about sexuality that is inconsistent with my values. And frankly I don't trust my kids' liberal white teachers to talk about these subjects. There's clearly a huge disconnect between their values and my values.

I asked you for evidence of this claim

"It revealed that the librarians teaching your kids are a lot more progressive about kids exploring their sexuality "

And your proof is that your kid came home once with a pride sticker, which is about gay rights, but you have redefined to mean being open sexually and sex positive which you then say you are against.

Hating gay people is the same as hating all black people and is objectively wrong

In a country where same sex marriage is already the law of the land, and has overwhelming public support, you think that there’s not a high degree of overlap between Pride and those who have liberal attitudes on sex for other reasons? As a racial minority I can tell you that the people organizing marches on that basis typically have views that are much more radical than protecting interracial marriage.

Half the country thinks it’s okay for teenagers to have sex and another half thinks it’s immoral: https://news.gallup.com/poll/393515/americans-say-birth-cont.... You think the teachers who send third graders home with a Pride sticker aren’t overwhelmingly in the pro-teenage sex camp? You think the folks at the American library association who gave a book with explicit depictions of underage kids having sex don’t support such conduct? How to socialize kids about sex and sexuality is a multi-faceted subject that involves sensitivities that have nothing to do with gay people. You can reduce it to that if you want but you’re left scratching your head why people who overwhelmingly support same sex marriage can also support laws to more carefully curate what books public libraries make available.

"You think the teachers who send third graders home with a Pride sticker aren’t overwhelmingly in the pro-teenage sex camp"

No and prove it or shut the fuck up with bullshit "every liberal/democrat is a pedophile". Do you want to count the number of church official vs drag queens who have been arrested for child rape?

"Most child victims are abused by a parent. In 2020, a reported 483,285 perpetrators abused or neglected a child. In substantiated child abuse cases, 77% of children were victimized by a parent." Oh my god better make sure teachers don't send their kids home with pride pins, they might use it to defend against family rape.

https://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/nationa...

Probably no one thinks it shouldn't but you are manipulating the debate by finding an example like that and ignoring books that are banned for other reasons.

Here's a list from one county https://pen.org/banned-books-florida/

I'm going to do one because I'm pretty sure I don't need to check anymore to determine that you are cherry picking.

Love to Mama: A Tribute To Mothers, by Pat Mora, Paula S. Barragán M.

"Pat Mora edited and contributed to this beautiful and celebratory collection, in which thirteen poets write with joy, humor, and love about the powerful bond between mothers, grandmothers, and children. These poets represent a wide spectrum of Latino voices, from award-winning authors to a 15-year-old new talent. They write passionately about their Puerto Rican, Cuban, Venezuelan, and Mexican American backgrounds and the undeniable influence of their mothers and grandmothers. Illustrated with exuberance by Ecuadorian artist Paula S. Barragán M.,"

They banned a valid book so you can hold it up and say what you said. In fact without these new laws I'm sure the book in question (which you didn't mention) probably wouldn't be in libraries

Nobody is "manipulating the debate." The book linked above is the most challenged book in these efforts: https://www.npr.org/2022/04/04/1090067026/efforts-to-ban-boo.... The American Library Association gave that book its Alex Award in 2020, for books for children 12-18. It's not some random book cherry-picked out of nowhere.

None of the books are "being banned." States are deciding what taxpayer-funded school libraries are making available to children. No decision has been made regarding the specific book you linked. An entire set of books approved in 2021 are being reviewed for appropriateness. Of course valid books are going to be pulled in the meantime while the government does its review. It's like a product recall--you pull the batch while you figure out how bad stuff made it through the filter.

I can’t help but notice your attempt to imply that Florida educators were somehow trying to suppress “Venezuelan, Cuban, and Puerto Rican” authors with your example. DeSantis won 68% of Cubans, and the majority of Puerto Ricans and Venezuelans. Which circles back to my point above--the librarians pushing pornographic content in schools are overwhelmingly (80%) white. It's a cultural thing--on average, white people are the ones in this country okay with adolescents having sex, and the ones who put the heaviest emphasis on kids "finding themselves."

"I can’t help but notice your attempt to imply that Florida educators were somehow trying to suppress “Venezuelan, Cuban, and Puerto Rican” authors with your example"

I don't know how you are noticing anything when I seriously just picked a random book and said nothing about their ethnicity. No where in my argument did I use that as an argument.

"None of the books are "being banned." States are deciding what taxpayer-funded school libraries are making available to children."

That's still a form of a ban. You highlighted that it's taxpayer funded, which to me means it's a violation of the first amendment. If it was a private library then that would be fine.

"Of course valid books are going to be pulled in the meantime while the government does its review. It's like a product recall--you pull the batch while you figure out how bad stuff made it through the filter."

Was there some imminent danger that they need to be pulled before reviewed? How long is a review going to take and who gets to make the decision about what is appropriate? However you're right that my example was under review. I didn't notice that the list was of books was of those both under review or banned. So let's check out another book that was banned.

"And Tango Makes Three"[1] is banned in the Lake Country School District for K-3 [2]

The stated reason is: "Administrative removal as per HB 1557 due to sexual orientation/gender identification". The book is a children's book about gay penguins. There's no sex in it and therefore it's not pornographic. Why is this justified?

The parent comment also stated "it is baffling to me how the media depicts this as "anti trans" or "anti lgbt" book banning while managing to never mention the specifics of the books."

Well there's a specific book and it's Anti-LGBT. How does this protect kids.

-----------------------------------------

Finally what about the bible? It contains descriptions of sex acts, incest, prostitution. It also is a religious book that pushes its own moral values and agenda. Why is that allowed but not books about gays?

I believe the true purpose of this law is to enforce moral values on the community and attack gays/etc by hiding their existence. The goal being to appease conservative Republicans and/or evangelicals who consistently vote Republican.

Why doesn't the 1st amendment apply here? The safety of children? How is hearing that gay people exist unsafe for kids? If you are willing to make exceptions to the 1st amendment for the safety of children that is questionable then are willing to make exceptions for one amendment why not the 2nd amendment? Guns are the leading cause of death for children between 1 and 19 in the US [3]?

[2] https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2023/02/07/heres-a-l... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Tango_Makes_Three

[3]https://www.kff.org/global-health-policy/issue-brief/child-a...

> That's still a form of a ban. You highlighted that it's taxpayer funded, which to me means it's a violation of the first amendment. If it was a private library then that would be fine.

It doesn't violate the first amendment for the same reason it would violate the first amendment for the government to tell Barnes and Noble that it can't stock those books. When the government buys books with taxpayer money and makes them available in a taxpayer-financed public library, the government is the speaker. The first amendment permits the government to have a particular viewpoint when it acts as a speaker and provider of services.

> "And Tango Makes Three"[1] is banned in the Lake Country School District for K-3 [2] The stated reason is: "Administrative removal as per HB 1557 due to sexual orientation/gender identification". The book is a children's book about gay penguins. There's no sex in it and therefore it's not pornographic. Why is this justified?

As you admit, that is a book directed at children. Children don't think about penguins as having any sexual orientation. Sexual attraction is not a concept that's appropriate to introduce to young children.

> I believe the true purpose of this law is to enforce moral values on the community and attack gays/etc by hiding their existence. The goal being to appease conservative Republicans and/or evangelicals who consistently vote Republican.

Yes, but the moral value that's being enforced is sheltering children from being exposed to concepts of sex, sexuality, and sexual attraction. Conservative Republicans and evangelicals support that goal, but so do most people. I have literally never heard my Biden-voting Muslim-immigrant parents say the word "sex" or the Bangladeshi equivalent. And I'm married with three kids! The subject is nonetheless completely taboo. That's even though all of us support same-sex marriage in the abstract.

"Sexual attraction is not a concept that's appropriate to introduce to young children"

Valentine's day is celebrated in schools, countless movies and books talk about marriage, love, and attraction between a man and a woman. You're trying to make same sex attraction a "sex act" instead emotional.

I don't care how many people support it. The majority does not mean you can ignore the constitution.

I have literally never heard my Biden-voting Muslim-immigrant parents say the word "sex" or the Bangladeshi equivalent. And I'm married with three kids!

1.Your personal experience has no value in this conversation.

2. You having a repressed upbringng doesn't prove the opposite. I've never worn a seatbelt and have never been in a crash isn't proof that seat belts don't work.

Finally you come from a country with less rights, especially for woman and you come here and have no issue with taking the rights of another smaller group of people shows your ignorance. Not to mention the people you support along with this would remove muslims from this country if they could. You should be ashamed of yourself

You realize Bangladesh and West Bengal have extremely open prostitution and that BD is the only country in the region with legalized prostitution? Ever heard of Sonagachi in Calcutta or Kandapara near Dhaka?

It's cool as long as they also ban the Bible - incest, rape and what not.

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