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Comment by ars | Hacker News Reader

> A lot of people can’t afford a new vehicle at current prices and many can’t afford used vehicles either.

If it lasts much longer it's going to be like Orange Juice. People will simply grow up without a car, and that will be their normal. The reduction in car demand will be permanent (demand destruction).

(Orange Juice used to be a basic part of breakfast and was normally always stocked in a typical fridge. High prices made that stop, and now an entire generation views orange juice as a treat rather than a staple.)

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I’ve grown up without car and spend most of my adulthood without a car (on and off) but still ready to pay significant (but not unlimited) price for freedom of movement a car gives - with car I can go anytime and almost anywhere (within a distance limited by time and roads of course). Most people don’t value this but I do and don’t think I’m unique here.

I felt the same way when I was growing up. Having a car changed everything. I really wish that I could have had that freedom without having to chain myself to an expensive and dangerous hunk of metal. Public transit, bikable, and walkable neighborhoods would save us so much time and stress and free those that cannot drive themselves.

> People will simply grow up without a car, and that will be their normal

If my last in-office experience ~5 years ago is any indication, that's already pretty common. A good portion of the younger employees had never owned a car, some didn't even have a drivers license. This was in The Mission district of SF.

I am seeing this even in my small rural community. Growing dependence on our bus service, bikes, and walking for demographics that can't really afford a car.

One of the very few places in the U.S. that even kinda pretends to be livable without a car. And even SF is pretty limiting without a car.

> And even SF is pretty limiting without a car.

Right? Especially if you consider all the short-drive destinations for recreational activities the rent certainly charges for.

Yep. I lived in downtown SF for 10 years, and only after fleeing during summer 2020 and buying a car do I realize how my social life in SF had really become so geographically limited even within SF. Obviously you can always Uber anywhere, and by public transit most of the city is only 90 minutes and 2 transfers away (snark), but the truth is that I see more areas of the city now when I visit via car from 25 minutes away than I did when I lived downtown.

In Europe, it looks like it is becoming the norm now for young people not to own a car. I'm not sure if it is price or ideology driven. For sure it is becoming harder and harder to own a car in the city, you need to shell a lot of money to pay the parking and meet the emission criteria

Having grown up in a small village, requiring you to have a car, I can not imagine my life without a car

It doesn't have to be price or ideology driven (though it can be). It's the rational choice for a lot of people. When a car is the slowest form of transport, costly to own, and you can rent/borrow a car for the very few occasions in the year you need to have one, it doesn't make sense to own one.

Add to that that a lot of young people in big cities don't even have a driving license.

Obviously it depends a lot on where you live. A lot of places in Europe still require you to have a car to get around.

we have 2 cars and we could get by owning just one. I also don't really need one because I work 40min away out of the city with a train connection. I see it as a freedom, I'm free to go where I want when I want, that's priceless for me. I will be very unhappy if I will be forced to not own a car.

> If my last in-office experience ~5 years ago is any indication, that's already pretty common. A good portion of the younger employees had never owned a car, some didn't even have a drivers license. This was in The Mission district of SF.

In SF that's nothing new. My family lived there in the 80s and my mom tells me that while we had a car, they never used it because it was a pain to find parking but it was very easy to catch the bus that came by every 5 minutes.

I get that, but practically nobody working in SF/SV startups is actually from SF/SV or even CA. It was surprising to me... but I'm from the midwest where getting your DL and your own car are as much the definition of Adult as an apartment is.

The cell phone killed the need for young people to have a car. All you really need is a way to know where all your friends are going tonight (or right now). Used to be you needed a car for that but now a cell phone will do it and it's a lot cheaper than a car.

My car died just before the pandemic hit, and I never got a chance to replace it. My wife and I have just shared her car since then, and neither of us get out and drive that often.

Now, with forced RTO, it looks like I may be forced to buy a car in order to do the commute. That's like a $25-50k hit in one fell swoop. I can't really look for an alternative job in town, because all the other employers are likely to expect me to also commute.

I could look for a different remote-only job, but there aren't that many around for DevOps Engineer types. If I was a Software Development Engineer, that would be much easier.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'm not sure what I can feasibly do.

I think I may just be screwed.

It shouldn’t be a staple. It’s basically soda in terms of sugar content.

Yes, an inadvertently great analogy.

Stopping doing something stupid that was bad for us (progress!) reframed as a sign of poverty and societal collapse from "the good old days".

It can be cost effective to Uber/Lyft if you only take a few trips a week. Compared to car insurance which can be $100-$200/mo, gas, maintenance, car tabs/registration fee (almost $300/year where I live). This doesn’t even consider the cost of the car itself which can be the equivalent of thousands of Uber/Lyft rides.

> Compared to car insurance which can be $100-$200/mo

How does that work? In the U.K. my insurance is $200 a year!

Is that a normal price or something extreme

It's actually quite low, I've only seen that low for liability-only coverage.

My bet is that it's due to insane medical expenses and death liability, which can easily have claims into the hundreds of thousands and millions (if your coverage even goes that high)

Mean individual auto insurance cost in the UK is around £500. You're getting a deal. Americans still pay more, though. If I had to guess why, it would be that Americans drive more miles, and it's easier and cheaper to drive while inexperienced in the US.

Since most Americans take loans to buy cars, they have to carry full (or low deductible) collision (your fault) and comprehensive (theft, vandalism, weather, etc) insurance, not just liability. Also, insurance against damage by uninsured motorists is crucial, and can be a large part of the bill.

That is a normal price.

- A car crash in the US can generate million dollar hospital bills. Personal liability cover of $2million is standard.

- American regulators require air bags to detonate quicker which might 10x collision repair costs.

- Americans are rich, and drive very expensive cars.

- Americans drive many more miles, which increases risk.

- US driving tests have significantly lower standards than the UK.

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