Comment by javascriptlol | Hacker News Reader

Comment by javascriptlol | Hacker News Reader

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You put XML and REST in different categories. So what? They are both attempts to provide systems interoperability for a huge domain. What we go out of XML: some ability to browse the format with standard tools, and some human-readability . That is all we will get out of REST. If that's the point, so be it. If you want to use it, so be it. I might use it for some projects. However, to put it forward as something new and special is being willfully ignorant of history.

>Similarly, to suggest that HTTP hasn't proven itself (compared to what?)

Compared to writing your own protocol that is appropriate for your application. The fact that people think HTTP is good enough has meant the browser has only recently acquired the ability to have a proper duplex channel without polling. Sorry, but that's just pathetic.

>or that "innovations" of the web existed decades ago (really!?) is nonsensical to me.

Name one thing that can't be constructed more efficiently and flexibly on the desktop, aside from web links.

>It's the most widely deployed application protocol on Earth. It handles billions of dollars of transactions.

So what? Because it's popular that means it's good? I used to be dismissed because as long as 7 years ago I was telling people we needed sockets and proper client/server in the browser. Now I'm getting the last laugh as I watch the browser vendors take decades to slowly do this stuff. At each step, it is labeled "innovative" and interesting and hyped up beyond all comprehension. The progression of this trend is retarded by the insistence of inventing stupid premature optimisations like caching as a basic architectural feature.

>You claim the web is unreliable. I think that's a layer error. The issue is that networks are unreliable. That's not something one can paper over.

Then you're ignorant of the potential of low-level protocol design. Sorry, but I absolutely can tailor my network protocol to my particular application. The web takes the position that everyone should use HTTP. It is a terrible protocol for many things. How are you going to design your soft real-time applications using HTTP? The answer is you can't, because it is impossible to get the right guarantees. HTTP has only "proven itself" in the same sense that Windows has; it was good enough at the time, so now it's blown up and everyone's using it. So what? I want more.

> So what? They are both attempts to provide systems interoperability for a huge domain [...] However, to put it forward as something new and special is being willfully ignorant of history.

Firstly, they were not both attempts at systems interoperability for a huge domain. XML was about building a specific format. REST is an entire architecture. It's the difference between designing a car and designing the interstate freeway system.

Secondly, let me get this straight. It's been a long standing goal for decades of both academia and industry to build a global scale interoperable distributed system. That this was done with distributed hypermedia, bridging languages, graphics formats, operating systems and computer architecture is not "new and special"?

> [HTTP isn't proven] Compared to writing your own protocol that is appropriate for your application.

Most hand-written protocols suck.

It's also these days rarely required given the strength of existing application protocols, and the widespread desire for interoperability, but clearly you don't value with that.

> The fact that people think HTTP is good enough has meant the browser has only recently acquired the ability to have a proper duplex channel without polling. Sorry, but that's just pathetic.

No, that's not pathetic, it's a consequence of the economics of scale. It is very difficult to economically sustain an event-driven internet scale system. e.g. http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/economies-of-scale

> Name one thing that can't be constructed more efficiently and flexibly on the desktop, aside from web links.

Firstly, most of what we do with computers these days is communication, processing, and commerce over web links.

Secondly, most data management applications are vastly more flexible, interoperable, and efficient with web technologies than they were with desktop technologies such as Access or Powerbuilder.

> I used to be dismissed because as long as 7 years ago I was telling people we needed sockets and proper client/server in the browser. Now I'm getting the last laugh as I watch the browser vendors take decades to slowly do this stuff.

I wouldn't be laughing yet. WebSockets is a sideshow that's not going to change a whole heck of a lot of how web apps are built. There will be interesting uses for it, but it's ultimately limited in scale and scope due to a lack of shared design constraints.

> Sorry, but I absolutely can tailor my network protocol to my particular application.

Sure you can, but you're basically making a value judgement that interoperability is of no concern to you, and that reuse is of no concern to you.

I mean, why use TCP, when we can just roll our own transmission layer on UDP? There are times that's needed (RTP), but we get a lot of productivity benefit with TCP.

> HTTP has only "proven itself" in the same sense that Windows has; it was good enough at the time, so now it's blown up and everyone's using it.

Sorry, that's just nonsense. The web has been a vast success story for global interoperability, and that can be directly attributable to the design constraints embodied in the main protocols of the web (HTTP, URI, and MIME).

I highly suggest you read Roy's thesis and reflect before postulating your opinions on this subject, since you really don't seem to have any appreciation for the amount of thought and engineering that went into the Web.

I would be more than happy to read to any sources you may have of what other protocols and/or techniques are clearly superior to the Web protocols (presuming I retain interoperability at scale as a major value).

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