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Comment by TrackerFF | Hacker News Reader

Whenever I see FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) influencers, almost without fail, the "hidden" story is that they:

- Inherited money / property / etc.

- Started to dabble in stock 5-10 years ago, right before / during the greatest bull-run so far

- Work in tech / finance / law / general high-paying white collar job

- Dual income, spouse in similar profession

But the big talking points are of course how they like to make coffee home, and how you can save 2 bucks a day on doing that. Or how hustling 2-3 hours doing some menial online job will bring you extra 10-20 bucks a day, which adds up over 10-15 years.

edit: Also, related to the article, I have noticed a considerable uptick of these "YOU NEED TO KNOW THESE 5 [insert some software] TRICKS" tidbits. Just 10 minutes ago I was scrolling Instagram and got a bunch of vids like that promoting excel tricks, chatgpt tricks, etc.

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You’re correct that the influencers aren’t average, but how would you expect someone to have a top 1% outcome without some input variable being top 1%?

To retire early you have to either:

- Start with more than average (inheritance, scholarships)

- Earn more than average (tech/finance/legal/medical career, dual income)

- Save more than average (live well below your means for decades)

- Return more than average (luck, skill, or risk)

There’s plenty of get-rich-quick gurus with crazy schemes, but in the financial independence space specifically most content I’ve seen is realistic that you’ll have to drastically outperform in one area (an 8 figure exit is hard to mess up) or do two or three consistently well for 10-20 years (develop a high income skill and avoid lifestyle inflation).

> You’re correct that the influencers aren’t average, but how would you expect someone to have a top 1% outcome without some input variable being top 1%?

You’re missing the point: The parent comment was saying they those 1% influencers are in the 1% often due to things like 1% lucky timing (buying stocks at the right time, buying real estate when it was cheap), but that doesn’t make for interesting content.

So instead, they do mental gymnastics to downplay their lucky position and try to peddle it to the average viewer as generic advice.

> most content I’ve seen is realistic that you’ll have to drastically outperform in one area (an 8 figure exit is hard to mess up)

“Just do an 8 figure exit” is purely aspirational advice for someone browsing FIRE forums. Starting a business, building it, and then selling it for 8 figures isn’t the kind of thing you learn from FIRE influencers on Reddit or whatever, but it’s exactly the kind of dreams they pretend to peddle.

> live well below your means for decades

I know a few who have pulled this off, and they all follow the same plan:

- Right out of high school start a 3/4 year, low-debt, in-demand college/university program. Finish on time, don't change major halfway.

- Standard white collar desk job

- find a partner, live with them but don't have kids. NOTE: critical that the partner share the same mindset so that you can encourage each other rather than create conflict.

- no(or cheap) car(based on job salary, commute cost, housing price)

- no eating out

- buy cheap house or find rent-controlled housing

- learn DIY renovation skills

- take care of your health/physical condition

- no overseas vacations

- buy ETFs

Low spend is highly levered because it both increases your saving rate and also decreases your burn rate post-retirement. Very doable to retire pre-40 even in the current clusterf** of an economy.

Absolutely not for everyone though! It reminds me of people who can run ultra-marathons: it takes incredible patience and determination as you watch everyone around you jump off the cliff like a herd of bison, or get swallowed by one of the many once-in-a-lifetime economic busts that have impacted this generation. I imagine it will be pretty surreal to be retiring when most people your age will still be $N00,000 in debt.

I'm not at all one of these people, but I really enjoy knowing them(I know 3-4 couples going down this path at varying stages). They've taught me a lot, and I'm really rooting for them to succeed.

Best response here.

Of critical importance -- percent of your income that you spend is the most relevant variable.

Over simplified, but if you can survive on 5% of your income, it won't take you long to be able to sustain that standard of living indefinitely (assuming you're able to save / invest the majority of the remainder).

It’s also bizarre how many FIRE influencers fit the description of the linked article: Their primary income is related to being some sort of FIRE influencer. They downplay it as much as they can, but it’s impossible to escape the reality that their financial situation is due to peddling financial advice to others. The advice, of course, is always about what other people should do, but it can’t be about how they make their money because that would shatter the illusion.

I'm reminded again how, had I no morals whatsoever, I could be utterly and filthy rich.

Same, I know that feeling all too well.

If that's all it took thered be more rich people

yes, crimes are not easy. naive people never try it!

That's one way to look at it. Another is that the vast majority of people are good.

People are good at self-deception. Good people can still get rich selling nonsense, as long as they succeed to convince themselves first.

Or they're incredibly highly leveraged. They bought one home, fixed it up, rented it out, worked up to 20% equity and then immediately went out and got another mortgage and then another, etc. Many of them are one mistake or rate change away from the collapse of their "empire".

Saw that happen to the parents of a friend. Resulted in divorce, and a decade down the line, their lives are still fucked.

> - Work in tech / finance / law / general high-paying white collar job

Hypothetically, if somebody wanted to make their goal in life obtain a "high-paying" job, why can't they obtain one? If somebody can theoretically go to a 90 day bootcamp, get a junior level job, and within 5 years go from $40k/yr -> $140k/yr... is it mission accomplished?

I'm not saying "I believe everybody can bootstrap their way to $100k/yr no matter what within 5 years". I know people have families, handicaps, obstacles to overcome, it's not easy or everyone would do it, etc.

It's just... why waste your time being influenced by people on social media saying "boy oh boy do I wish I was making $100k/yr+" but not be willing to sacrifice for 5 years to make it happen?

They know their audience.

First off, their target audience (the FIRE crowd) aren't HS kids yet deciding what path to take, but rather young adults and adults either still in college, or those that have graduated college and worked a couple of years. The IDEAL target audience for FIRE are fresh grads that simply hate working.

I mean, sure, they can advocate that you go and "grind LC" to land some FAANG-type job, but that market is already established ("HOW TO LAND A FAANG JOB" influencer-sphere), most regular folks don't want to spend another 3-5 years and money on college, but rather look for things they can do right now - so they seek FIRE-influencers that will preach about flipping houses, becoming a landlord, minimizing costs/living frugally, diversifying your portfolio on real estate/stocks/crypto/etc.

Nothing wrong with that - but they tend to let out some crucial details, like how they themselves managed to get a $50k down payment straight out of college. Or how they managed to put $50k on certain companies (Tesla, anyone?) or crypto during the boom.

This type of marketing has existed for a long time. The classic example being “learn to get rich by buying my $20 book” which is just a list of random advice.

i read Donald Trumps "how to get rich" when i was a kid in the early 2000's. What a worthless book. So yes, influencers will always exist, if there is any niche to make money, someone will always fill that hole.

^this. And also they soon realize you need a whole lot more money than you thought to retire early.

Blind is riddled with these folks too.

I mean, what do you expect? If you work in a high paying job, it's tempting to start increasing your lifestyle spend (eating out every night etc). If you want to retire early you have to save that money, which means making coffee at home etc.

Why the fixation on coffee? If you bought a $5 latte every day you went to work, you’re look at, what, a bit more than $1200/year? If you make $150K/year, that is a perfectly reasonable outlay that won’t compromise your retirement plans. The key is having a balanced life. If you can’t help but buy every shiny thing you see, then that’ll be a problem. But the advice of these Internet personalities is just as poorly balanced in the direction of asceticism. Obviously this is a non-starter for nearly every normal person.

I think the problem is that people are fascinated by schemes that are extreme and highly unbalanced. Even the idea of FIREing… why are so many people obsessed with the idea of retiring early? Why not find a job that isn’t soul sucking and do that? Hey, maybe you get paid less, but maybe you’d have some coworkers you actually like and don’t mind spending time with. You have to be patient with your life to do that, and patience and balance aren’t sexy or exciting, I guess.

Agreed. Compare coffee to having a child. Daycare expenses + everything else, and coffee is a negligible expense, almost a rounding error.

In fact, that's probably one of the largest "lifestyle inflations" that happens.

You mean getting a child is one of the largest "lifestyle inflations" that happen?

The other thing so many overlook is that achieving your FIRE goals by living like a pauper means you have to continue to live like a pauper in retirement to make the numbers work. Otherwise, if you want to live those retirement dreams, plan on saving a whole lot more than the 25x the influencers tell you you need.

I'm not fixated on coffee? I said eating out every day and coffee as two arbitrary examples.

I think most people, definitely myself, find happiness in simplicity. Mindlessly consuming more and more luxury items as you progress in your career seems empty, even if you can afford it. And anyway, I prefer making my own food because it's less wasteful, cheaper, and I can make it how I want it

The difference between someone with a high paying job who doesn't retire early, and one who does retire early, has nothing to do with eating out every night or buying coffee. That's the point.

There's a big difference between spending, say, $50 a day and spending $100 per day, in terms of how much money is needed to retire and how much you can save.

A tech worker might make $200 a day after taxes. $5 on coffee isn't huge but in NYC etc it's pretty easy to blow $60 a day eating out and $100/day on rent, and that stuff can add up to where you hardly save anything.

Plus the biggest factor in how much you need to retire is what your expenses are. Significantly lowering your expenses boosts the savings rate but it also lowers that target number.

For me, it's a question of values. I'd rather live frugally and have more freedom than trade away more of my time to have more stuff and convenience in my life. For others, the balance is different.

I get what you're saying, but simply put - that coffee isn't going to do sh!t compared to being able to save 60% of your combined take-home paycheck, because you're living rent-free in your parents fourth home / inherited apartment / moms basement.

But it's much easier for these influencers to use these simple and everyday examples of how to save money.

Exploiting people that want easy answers and the illusion of everything being in their control has always been easy money for those willing to do the exploiting. Social media has made it easier than ever by providing ample reach and viral messaging.

The fire people also don't tell you that if you retire early you're existing standard of living will dip and then stay that way. So as long as you like hustling forever to get cheap deals you'll be fine, otherwise you'll be retired and poor and considering becoming unretired.

> - Work in tech / finance / law / general high-paying white collar job

> - Dual income, spouse in similar profession

These are totally legitimate ways of making more money and achieving an early retirement though. There's no deceitfulness there... Sometimes you do want the high paying job!

Absolutely. But few want to hear "Go to a good school, study hard for 4-5 years, work really hard toward interviews, and then go grind at FAANG/Investment Banks/MBB/etc. for 15 years, and move somewhere cheap", when they could

"Make a million bucks in just 5 years by flipping condos"

"Become wealthy by trading crypto / stocks, I did it in two years!"

etc.

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