Hacker News Reader

Comment by jpdaigle | Hacker News Reader

Yes, it would be interesting, because you'd expect materials to cost roughly the same wherever you are in the country (modulo shipping costs), and cost of labor to account for much of the city to city difference.

A former landlord of mine, whose house I was renting in Palo Alto at the time (2021), shared that they were planning to kick off a major renovation that would total around 800K$ all-in.

That's an absolutely stunning figure to renovate a 3bdrm home, considering I've also heard anecdotes from outside California, of completely stripping down a similar-sized home to the studs, redoing all plumbing / electricity / walls / flooring / high-end-everything in the kitchen... for under 250K$.

So, where's the extra half-million dollars going? The delta in renovation costs alone between these anecdotes represents 10 years of the average California constructor worker's salary [per the BLS](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472061.htm).

View on HN

Older tradespeople are retiring and younger participation in the trades has not kept up (for a variety of reasons). Labor improvement costs will only go up if you or unpaid help (friends) are unable to do the work. Higher level thesis is structural demographics in general compressing productive worker cohort.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skilled+trades+shortage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fsWN9lxVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpggP9ygO_U

I have been talking to people in the construction/trades industry for a long, long time. I sell them stuff.

At least for the last w20 years I've been talking with them, owners cannot find employees. It's the biggest complaint that I hear.

I talk to construction company owners all the time and journeymen make $100,000+ per year. Not at all the companies, not the shitty owners, but if you look, you will find that money.

This is way better than an average university education in all but a few majors like computer science.

Not only that, but as you apprentice and learn the trade, you get paid, unlike university where you pay.

When I went to university, you could get any degree, it didn't matter, because tuition was $600 per year. Get an English degree or art degree. You could pay your tuition and books and fees working a summer job.

Now, if you go to university, anything other than a computer science degree is a waste of money and time, more or less. Most of the STEM field majors suck - you don't get squat for a biology degree or chemistry degree, or so I hear. Only computer science is a sure thing. Oh, there might be a few weird degrees you can make massive money in, like petrochemical engineering or whatever, but jobs are far and few between, and there's no a massive market for those type of degree, unlike computer science.

> This is way better than an average university education in all but a few majors like computer science.

Quality of life is way lower however, most tradies bodies are in pain once in their 40s

I have known electricians making well over $100k, and a carpenter who does the same.

Both work 6 days a week, long days, and often physically demanding work. The electrician is at least union and has protections through them; he pulls data center gigs on his off days.

This is also around Northern VA, where $100k salary is fairly unimpressive; it's not SF or Vancouver, but housing ain't cheap and $100k ain't what it used to be.

Shipping costs are a massive deal in construction so you’re stuck with local materials and local workers. Which recursively means your also stuck with fairly local factory workers making those materials etc.

That said, the upper end of materials get crazy expensive anywhere. From basic linoleum floors in bathrooms, the next rung is tile and underfloor heating systems, and above that people are importing hand crafted marble from Italy etc. So each bathroom could have a 100$ toilet or a 15,000$ one etc.

Any high COL will have expensive trades people. Maybe when demand quiets down or more people start chasing money in the trades will prices come down, but it is $800K ATM because that's what it takes to get on the list.

I was quoted $150K for a full kitchen renovation in Seattle. Ugh.

That's what prices in the US should have been like, but housing and food was kept artificially low for decades due to use of migrant labor. The US market could stomach stagnating wages because illegals did all of the work for at or below minimum wage.

Now there is a shortage of trades and COVID + "build the wall" anti-immigration pushes meant there are no migrants, so you're paying regular price for 1st world labor.

> but housing and food was kept artificially low for decades due to use of migrant labor.

Food maybe, but housing? It has been rising since the last huge housing bust in the 90s, with only a blip downturn after 2008. Migrant labor is great because they want to do those jobs at all, and it isn't really about wages, poorer Americans just seem to be content to complain about immigrants while watching FoxNews with no ambition to do those jobs, richer Americans are the ones employing those migrants in the construction and agriculture (as well as Trump-style hospitality) industries while at the same time using illegal immigration as a wedge issue.

This isn't unique to that region.

Construction costs in London are significantly higher than in the north of England.

I'd be surprised if this isn't common worldwide. Tradesmen are generally in high demand in these areas, it's not like McDonalds where you can just pay minimum wage + $5 and hope for the best.

And as the other poster says, bulk materials are, well, bulky. Timber is comparatively expensive in the UK because we don't have vast forests like the US.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com