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Comment by diego_moita | Hacker News Reader

On the topic "untranslatable words that express a culture" here are my favourites:

- Italian: words that express refined craftsmanship: sprezatura, virtuoso, capo-lavoro, affresco, al-dente, allegro/adagio, ...

- French: life must be appreciated to its full: joie-de-vivre, bon-vivant, coquette, lingerie, gourmet, finesse, chic, ..

- Japanese: a very sharp capability to appreciate what others can't: wabi-sabi, umami, satori, ...

- English: a very ingrained respect for democracy and its values: accountability, grassroots/astroturf, pork-barrel, bullying, harassment, lobying, ...

- German: a clear eyed perception that the world is dangerous and mean: torchlusspanic, schadenfreude,...

- Brazilian Portuguese: all that matters are emotional and physical connections: cafuné, xamego, sacanagem, ...

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I don't know most of these languages, but I'm not so sure about some of your English examples. I don't think "accountability", "bullying", and "harassment" are that untranslatable.

Whether a word is untranslatable very much depends on the language you're translating to. "Schadenfreude" translates quite directly to "leedvermaak" in Dutch, even though English has no word for it (therefore adopting it as a loan word).

Personally, I've never really found a word in another language that encompasses the same meaning and connotation as "gezellig", though there are close contenders (like "hygge" in Danish). There are also words I know of in other languages that are in the same category, describing a feeling or perception that's impossible to explain (and may be shaped by culture as much as language).

There are definitely English words that have the same problem, but they're still quite rare.

Sure, I'd need to know all languages in the world to say which are untranslatable or not.

But what I can say is that these languages introduced these words, perceptions, themes and discourses into worldwide discussion.

In Latin-derived languages the English words I mentioned are either directly imported or very new. One example: in Spanish and Portuguese the word "assedio" has appeared as a substitute for harassment. But this is a very recent phenomenon, until recently wife-beating wasn't even a crime in some Spanish/Portuguese speaking countries.

I checked a couple of bilingual dictionaries, and found your insight interesting that it looks like there is no precise direct translation for "bullying" in French or Spanish, but only multi-word translations like those in the submitted article.

In French, there is "harcèlement" for harassment, but according to WordReference.com, the closest one-word translations for bullying are "harcèlement" or "intimidation" (which appear closer to harassment and intimidation in English) [1]. Similarly, according to SpanishDictionary.com, the closest translation of bullying is the Anglicism "el bullying," with "intimidación" also used as a close but not exact equivalent [2].

Similarly, the closest equivalent to "accountability" according to WordReference is "responsabilité," with Spanish similarly using "responsabilidad" as its closest equivalent according to SpanishDictionary. Perhaps "responsabilité" and "responsabilidad" can carry the same connotations as the English word for "accountability" depending on the context, but it's true that there are no entries for standalone words in French or Spanish in these dictionaries that carry the exact associations as "accountability" in English.

[1] https://www.wordreference.com/enfr/bullying

[2] https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/bullying

Can you give an example where the word cozy doesn't describe the same thing as gezellig?

From the article, though cozy may be a rough translation, I see the author's point that cozy can't be a direct, precise translation.

The author writes that Oprah Winfrey is "gezellig," but it's a bit awkward to say that a person is "cozy." The English usage is correct to say that a person is "comforting." The author also writes that cheering on a sports team is "gezellig," along with going out in the evening with friends. But these activities seem high-energy to me, so "comforting" doesn't feel quite right (where as "gezellig" would feel completely right).

So, "gezellig" looks like a sentiment that is a mixture of "warm, comforting, and at-home," which can describe a person and also activities that are active and not necessarily passive. It's translatable, so I disagree with the author's premise that the word "gezellig" can't be translated, as the word is clearly translated by the author with abundant examples. However, I agree with the author's impression that a single English word cannot define the term.

I'm not familiar with "gezellig". The word "gemütlig" means roughly "comfortable", "comforting", "nice", and can be applied equally to a person or an environment. But it seems to have a particular resonance in German, possibly because Germans prize gemütligkeit very highly.

[Edit] Maybe that explains them having two words for it?

Not Dutch, but I speak a language that has a similar word, with the same meaning: "gesellig".

Look at the first picture in TFA. That's gesellig. Having coffee on a busy terrace on a sunny day is gesellig.

Spending time in front of a fireplace while it rains outside is cozy, not gesellig. Unless, as the article points out, you have friends over that are gesellig.

It shares a root with "gesels" which means "to chat". And you have the word "geselskap" which is similar to "audience", but used in a more social context.

Gesellig is all about having a good time with a fun crowd. Cozy can be this too, but it's more restrictive I think. Playing a drinking game while in you underwear in the snow might not be cozy, but it's sure as hell gesellig!

From what I can tell you're talking about Afrikaans here. I think the words are extremely similar, if not the same, and that makes sense with Afrikaans being largely derived from an older Dutch dialect. The word "gesellich" was present in Dutch already in 1240 according to Wiktionary, so Afrikaans will have inherited the word from Dutch with much of the same meaning. Perhaps it's even exactly the same!

I would describe spending time in front of a fireplace while it rains outside to be cozy (or "knus" in Dutch) as well, not gezellig. However, you could describe the fireplace and the room it's in as gezellig.

I'm not sure if I'd call that a translation, though, because of how the languages have evolved. I wouldn't call color and colour translations of each other, and gesellig and gezellig are similarly close in written form and etymological history.

In contrast, I find it interesting that the meaning of "gesels" and "geselskap" in Afrikaans is so different from "gezel" and "gezelschap" in Dutch. A "gezel" is a friend, mate, or some other person who stands with you; a gezelschap is a group of gezellen. I'm not aware of any similar verb ("vergezellen", perhaps, which means "to accompany"). Sadly, the Afrikaans Wiktionary is not as complete as the Dutch Wiktionary so I can't easily verify the exact relationships between these words.

You are right about my language, it's indeed Afrikaans :)

Interestingly, we also have the word knus, totally forgot about it. We also have "snoesig", which is used to describe being tucked in or wrapped in a blanket.

So your description of geselskap (group of gezellen) is EXACTLY what geselskap means. Its a group of good or fun people, sometimes friends but not always. We don't have the concept of "gezel" though. Interestingly we also have the concept of bad (slegte) geselskap, which describes when you associate with the "wrong kind of people".

We ALSO have vergesel, which is the verb for accompany. We have "metgesel", which is the noun given to the person accompanying you i.e. escort/chaperone or date.

So for those who are not native Dutch and Afrikaans: in the 1650s the Dutch came to South Africa and started a colony. Over the centuries the Dutch dialect this side changed and picked up all sorts of words from local and other imported languages. In the early 1900s it oficially became it's own language. For a long time before that it was known as "kitchen Dutch" among other things, as it was the creole spoken by the slaves and servants of the Western Cape colonists. It's trivial for me to read and comprehend Dutch text, and a speaker only needs to slow down a little and I can follow what's being said well enough.

I'm no native speaker, so correct me if I'm wrong here. I think "knus" is a much better translation of "cosy", and in some instances knus and gezellig can be used as synonyms. As far as I can tell "cosy" is generally associated with warmth, while that's not necessarily a requirement for something to be gezellig.

- I don't think you can say someone has a cosy personality

- I don't think you can say "how cosy for you to be here" or "let's keep it cosy in here" when the mood is turning sour

- I don't think you would call going shopping with a group of friends cosy

- I'm not sure if you can have a cosy conversation, but maybe you can?

German "gesellig" is the same. But then again it is not per se a translation.

The word has a similar origin and definitely works as a translation for one of the uses of gezellig, but it doesn't cover the entire definition. It helps that the languages are so closely related but they're different enough that I wouldn't call it a translation.

The inverse is true of many Dutch words with a common German origin as well. We straight-up imported "überhaupt" because there's no commonly used, single word that expresses the same particular thing (other than another loan word).

What is missing?

I'm Scottish - so I'm tempted to say "dreich".... :-)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50476008

My favourite thing about 'dreich' is how often people hearing it for the first time just... get it. The word sounds dreary on its own.

I must admit that I've spent a lot of time walking up Scottish mountains in fairly dreich conditions - just makes me appreciate how utterly glorious this wee country is when it's not being dreich. :-)

Edit: From the comments on that BBC article:

Glasgow woman sits in the dentist's chair.

"Comfy?" says the dentist.

"Govan" says the woman.

Edit2: When I was a child I would have asked where someone was from by saying: "Far are ye fae"....

As a sassenach that took me a minute (even with your helpful addendum)...

I think craic from Irish would fit into this. Not sure if there's a broader category there.

I tend to agree. Im not Dutch, but my language has the same word.

My understanding is that craic means to have a good time with good people, and that's exactly what gesellig is.

Gesellig might have broader application in this context though, as an event can be gesellig, a person can be gesellig. It's am adjective. It seems craic is used for all sorts of other terms which do not apply here.

The word is of Scots origin, apparently.

I’m tempted to speculate…

Portuguese: saudade, fado

About the feeling of missing something, somebody or past times and complaining about the inevitability of it. Why? Portugal is a country of explorers, settlers and lost territories.

But we (English speakers) are not above ripping off untranslatable words from other languages. At work I used to talk about fingerspitzengefühl and schwerpunkt; we didn't even bother trying to translate them to English. And everyone I know knows about schadenfreude and zeitgeist and "je ne sais quoi."

Maybe we do have translations for them. Maybe the English word for schadenfreude is "schadenfreude." (But yes, if you want to say I'm cheating, that's fine.)

I took that same observation as evidence! The easiest means of expressing that concept is to just lift the word whole sale

I thought "al-dente" could be translated to "undercooked".

Undercooked has a broader meaning.

A steak can be undercooked but never will be al-dente.

Undercooked can mean improperly cooked, al-dente always means properly not cooked too much.

(I'm not Italian, this is wild speculation) I think it directly translates to something like "to the tooth", so I always imagine it meaning a food having a certain kind of "bite".

It simply means that you feel a degree of resistance or firmness when you bite an al dente piece of food, ie. it has a "tooth feel" unlike soft, fully cooked starchy things.

An engineer might say that al dente has more shear strength left than fully cooked.

"Undercooked" means "cooked too little", al-dente is not "cooked too little", it's "cooked enough" in order to be al-dente. I guess you could say al-dente is more "not cooked too much" instead. Personally I cannot stand pasta that is not al-dente.

Sibling comments here are good but what I think they are missing is a nuance of artistry that underlies a lot of GP’s examples.

So in this case, al dente means cooked to perfection. Not too much, not too little, and is reflective of the craftsman’s skill.

Al dente means the pasta "bites back". Its cooked, and its just cooked enough that there is still some bite in it. It's not turned to mush.

It translates as cosy. Or, in London area dialect “cushty”.

Cushty and cozy are not the same thing at all!

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