Ableton Push 3 | Hacker News Reader

Ableton Push 3

ableton.com

354 pointsnavidhg297 comments

This thread is super hackernews-y, people complaining about the performance of the PC that runs it compared to equally priced specs, some comments about source code and APIs, some comments about copying a open source product, a few about when AI can make music??

Doesn't really seem to be much talk about the actual product, I must say I haven't owned either, but it looks super cool! The video was very well done showcasing the product and in/out with the guitar. I am still not a 100% sure who the target market is, hobby musicians? Professional DJs?

I also wonder how easy it is to repeat an action, on a guitar a C major sounds like a C major on that same guitar. But you can't really remember did I move my finger 4 blocks and 3/4th of the other block of 5 blocks and a half?

I bought one. I'm a hobbyist that's been using Ableton in a hobbyist manner since 2005 or so.

As a software developer that works remotely, I have extremely limited desire to sit in front of my computer when work is over, and thus I end up using my music gear (which is unfortunately all crammed in my home office) much less than I'd like to. The appeal of a product like this is that I can take it into a different room and scratch the music production itch when I have it without feeling like I'm sitting at my work office all day.

Going analog after long stretches of being digital is a good forcing function to take breaks and get physical. Even just strumming and knob twisting is enough change-up to get different juices flowing.

This Push looks even more fun with controls beyond pads. And this is a page out of Framework — atypical in DAWs and music gear:

> You can add the standalone components later using the Upgrade Kit, and replace your processor, battery or hard drive to keep up with advances in technology.

>I end up using my music gear (which is unfortunately all crammed in my home office)

Same here, I like to think of it as my studio, a place where I do creative things. Same crammed room but it sounds a lot more romantic.

Same, and these days my music desk is about half filled with half a dozen cases worth of modular synths, with a bread rack perpendicular to that housing some rack gear, too many effects pedals, and also too many standalone synths. I refuse to own synths that include their own full keyboards, talk about A LOT of space.

Push 3 looks awesome and I’m glad to see them jumping onto the standalone game like NI have with Maschine along with many others. The Polyend Play and Tracker are lots of fun too.

I have the same workspace for work and making music. But I can totally understand the desire to make them separate.

For some reason, it just seems that I am forcing myself to make music. If I take a mini MIDI keyboard and make music somewhere else, it's much easier to do.

As a software developer myself, I prefer using an iPhone to create music rather than a laptop. With plugins it is possible to make stuff like this with Garageband for iPhone https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cqd9naFOh1I/

If you really want one of these things, and you use Ableton, get this one. I've used a Native Instruments Maschine and and Akai APC, and they just don't integrate that well with Ableton. But I've found I end up using a keyboard (Native Instruments Komplete) most of the time, even for drums, and that does integrate well.

I picked up an MPC X for a great deal some years ago but I find that using it feels like using a limited DAW instead of inspiring much creativity. As an engineer as well, I always have the urge to try to preserve and record my noodling with the ability to recreate it and perhaps change out synths, so the MPC works decently well as a midi and CV hub / router that can record, but I can’t say I’ve ever had tons of fun with it. That’s probably more on me for never finishing the MPC Bible ebooks.

On the other hand, the Linnstrument is fantastic for bringing out creative ideas, and it plays well with the many MPE instruments available for iPads. Add in an iConnectivity interface that can simultaneously hook up with a laptop to record everything including the resulting audio and that’s a powerful machine.

My only regret in modern music creation is now that I can afford all the fun toys and now that we have nearly limitless potential to create any sound we could never imagine, I don’t have nearly as much time as when I was a kid with an Alesis Ion and a pirated copy of Reason, so I end up creating a quarter of the music with 20x more gear :/

I strongly feel that with the more year that I acquire, the less creative I become. I don’t think it’s an age thing that slowed me down, it’s an over abundance of options. The few times I’ve been stuck with just my laptop and a copy of FL studio, the old creative me comes back.

Ableton live enthusiast here. I went all in on ableton after finding a push 2 second hand for cheap enough that I was willing to switch from Logic Pro. That was in 2018 and haven’t looked back.

From my perspective I see this as a mixed bag. I don’t think i would want to use the push as a lap device while sitting on the couch. This looks to be about the same dimensions as the push 2. It’s a squareish device that is about 14” or ~35cm wide and tall and about an inch and a half thick. I have and have had several other stand alone devices and they have to be much smaller than the push to tempt me away from my music pc desk.

That said maybe as a desktop device for traveling etc I could see it.

The other thing is that stand alone mode doesn’t allow both “views” in Ableton. One is the linear arrangement view (unavailable in standalone mode) and one is the session view that is more for clip launching and attaching musical phrases to a button on the push grid. This is the view that standalone mode allows. Here is the link to the manual for that https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/session-view/

In my opinion this mode is great for remixing and spinning up new ideas but I typically use live as I would a hardware sampler back in the day. Layer up ideas in arrangement view record everything and then go back and chop. To me, that is what I would rather do on a couch than remix clips.

The hardware running live is adequate but I see why they may have limited the standalone functionality. I run live on an iMac Pro with 32gb ram and the 8core Xeon standard cpu. Live 11 can really tax this machine especially with plugins in the mix. This is the other limitation that I understand but don’t really like. No external plugins. I’m not sure if max will be available but suspect that the built in efx and max live edition will be there(I haven’t watched all the videos yet)

@dubcanada - the push is super cool and can be assigned scales/modes so that the buttons play scales up and down the octave range. Or if it’s controlling a drum machine you get the familiar 16 pad interface x4 You can use it for step sequencing, playing chords with polyphonic expression (also in the push 2 but 3 looks to be improved) or just sit there and launch clips with 1 finger.

As I read what I have written I think I’m going to stick with my push 2 but if you use live and want a push the 3 is the one I would buy today, but probably the upgradable one that acts like push 2. Then I would see if I could upgrade it myself and not with the ableton kit. They hint that it will be.

I own a Push 1 and 2, although at hobbyist level.

The standalone Push 3 seems a great step forward. macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to audio (and other pro) users.

For instance I have an expensive sound card that became useless with after a minor OS upgrade. I never got to troubleshoot it or find an official solution.

That was incredibly discouraging - enough to move on to other hobbies. And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains that musicians have to go through.

Musician here, most of us (the ones that aren't also programmers) just have to pay up the arse every time for every thing.

I've been teaching myself keys the last few years and had been planning to one day get myself a big $6k stage keyboard, when I felt that I had sufficiently developed to warrant it.

I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord.

Your comment is fascinating, because domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. Like so many giant piles of capital masquerading as a company.

> domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot.

They’ve lost many plots.

Musicians, developers, and even photographers.

Apple’s playbook seems to have changed to:

- Hook a demographic with functionality that’s anywhere from just good enough to excellent

- Railroad them in to using as many first-part services as possible (especially if that means getting them to buy more Apple devices)

- Slowly lock them down so it’s harder and harder to move to competitors (aka boil the frog)

- Move staff from those first party products as the users are trapped and it’s no longer necessary for the quality to be excellent

Google famously discontinued Google Reader despite it having tens of millions of users because it represented a minuscule contribution to their bottom line.

Apple isn't a software company, it's a phone company. Everything that isn't an iPhone represents a minuscule contribution to their bottom line. Apple doesn't give a shit about pro users, even if it's profitable, because they're too big to care.

I was questioning your “Apple’s a phone company” claim, figuring services long ago surpassed iPhone sales, but in fact, services sits at about 30% of their revenue and the iPhone sits at about 55%, which is roughly 5% growth from last year!

Services may be at 30% but their profit margin for them is >70%, more than double of what they have for hardware.

I think they were conceding the point :>

So, Chokepoint Capitalism.

FWIW, I recently replaced "Pianoteq license and a good controller" with a Nord. I've found that the friction involved in getting the laptop warm and Pianoteq started/running, while relatively low, is still enough that I didn't often just sit down and play. The Nord is a simple appliance and is always there inviting me to practice.

I still have the laptop and Pianoteq and use them with the Nord as a controller sometimes, when I want to work with digital music. But most of the time, the laptop stays shut, and I've found I am able to more deeply engage with the music that way.

I’ve also been in that situation and considered something like a Roland Integra 7, which can be found for around $1k in good condition if one is patient and willing to buy second-hand from Japan. I already have a pretty nice Studiologic 88 key hammer controller, but using that with Ravenscroft 275 on an iPad with an interface, mixer, preamp, and the speakers in the living room (studio monitors) is still a pain to turn on and use when we want. Acoustic pianos are obviously the most immediate, but a Nord or other stage piano with powered monitors is pretty convenient too.

If I had the money... Well I'd probably get a Hammond actually, but I would take it if I could afford it. But I'm a lot of house repairs and more important devices away from that point lol

Nords are for gigging artists that want every feature accessable via physical controls on the device with minimal setup. If you are willing to bring your laptop on stage there are probably better cheaper options. That being said used Electro's can be affordable and they are really fun devices to own. There is also a nice small community of people hacking on them. My current hobby project is reverse engineering the electro 5

I had considered going the route of a nice midi controller and software, but ultimately when I wake up in the morning and sit down to practice I don't want to be on the computer with the seemingly infinite potential for distraction. I bought a Nord Grand a couple years ago and I'm really glad that I did. The action feels great and the sounds are good enough (although I really would love a new grand piano sample). My teacher even has commented that he's surprised by the dynamics in my touch on his grand at his studio, which in his experience often can get lost when practicing on a digital keyboard.

Anyway, I'd recommend it for anyone that's at that point of taking their practice seriously, but might not have the space/neighbors for an acoustic piano.

I assume you can buy more sounds for the Nord? I have read up extensively on the Stage 3 but not the piano. Currently making do with a Korg B2 for that.

Anyways, everyone seems to have misread my pianoteq comment as me intending to use a laptop; not the case.

Zynthian is a raspberry Pi project that collects up basically everything Linux has available for music and puts it in a small box suitable for pedalboard, rack, on top of your Nord, etc. It works beautifully and with a hifiberry sound card is the equal of anything, sonically.

It also implements pianoteq as an engine, so with a pianoteq license, it really does do everything the Stage does, minus the keyboard natch, and quite a lot more besides (DSP with stereo in out, mod devices, puredata). So you could have a bunch more piano sounds in a small device that is also a full box of toys for not too much.

They are also weeks/days away from releasing a new hardware version that looks really great, the bdfl has been posting stuff in the discourse.

Things are progressing in Linux, folks. Good times.

Yep, I love my nord for the same reasons as you (and also the excellent b3+leslie emulation on the electro/stage). I stare at a screen all day so when it comes to practice or playing gigs I prefer it over midi + laptop/ipad. That being said, I don't want to discourage anyone from going the laptop route. You gain a ton of flexibility and if you already own the laptop it's way cheaper to get started. It's all just preference at the end of the day.

Seconded. I love my Nord Grand. I still use a laptop sometimes but not having to get the laptop warm/unlocked/software started in order to play is amazing. I can just sit down, flip a switch, and practice.

> I really would love a new grand piano sample

If you haven't already seen the Nord Piano Library, it's amazing:

https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-piano-lib...

The problem is that pure MIDI controllers are often not very good. When you pay $2,000 for a synthesizer, it can have a very good keyboard.

This used to be true, but I don't think it is any more. The Kawai VPC1, for example, contains an incredibly nice action, costs $2,500, and is a pure MIDI controller.

https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/

Yeah, there are a couple exceptions. Roland used to make a popular master keyboard. My main question is why someone would want a $2500 controller, when at that price you could get something like a CP88.

The osmose by Expressive E is pretty cool too, and Studiologic controllers have nice Fatar keybeds that are considered top of the line for synths and workstations.

If you pay $1000+ for a MIDI controller it can have a very good keyboard as well.

It’s harder to source MIDI controllers in that price range, compared to synths.

I have a feeling of unease too.

OSX occasionally warns me about third party kernel extensions, and that's not an encouraging direction of travel.

I bought my audio interface precisely because RME have a reputation for writing reliable and performant drivers.

I don't think this is true at all. Apple keeps releasing amazing new features for Logic Pro and they are free. They also just released Logic Pro for the iPad, and the new M2 iPad Pros are basically more powerful than Intel Macs at this use case.

Apple is clearly committed to their Pro users, but I can see why them dropping driver support for older hardware is frustrating. It's not that they are dropping driver support, it's just that the hardware manufacturers aren't updating drivers to support ARM Macs and not load as a low level kernel driver (insecure). I think your anger is a bit misplaced - maybe you should direct it towards the sound card manufacturer that refuses to update drivers for years?

Or you could just get off their walled garden that assumes you have thousands of extra dollars per year to pay for their various premium lifestyle objects and services.

If Apple is only concerned with Professionals, they should stop marketing to the peons.

> I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord.

Yes, but also buy yourself a big old 90s ROMpler workstation for a couple of hundred quid, and keep it around for when you need something, I don't know, just *different*. Or if you need to do an impromptu gig and don't want to cart your super-expensive controller and super-delicate laptop to a pub.

Think of it as the musical equivalent of your gardening boots.

Zynthian runs on a Raspberry Pi, and with a HifiBerry sound card (<$100) I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with absolutely any expensive rig. My whole point is, you don't need to spend thousands, you can spend hundreds and get the same sounds.

If you understand Midi or are willing to learn about storing snapshots and setting channels, you can set it up to be just as convenient (more convenient actually). It rewards the curious more than others, as in all nice things.

My plan - I genuinely did budget myself $6k, I have several times that much in guitar gear so I do take this seriously - is to build several dedicated ones, both for redundancy and to make sure they are extremely robust. Since I can code I'm even thinking orchestration of redundant raid-like units via a digital mixer. This will all cost a small fraction of a Nord Stage 3 and if anyone steals it, I mean, good luck to em lol

offtopic, but what keyboard controller do you recommend?

I have a cheap MIDI keyboard but the keyfeel is all wrong compared to the upright pianos I used to play as a kid. I'd like to get back into piano, and I know I struggled with phrasing/dynamics, and I worry that unweighted keys will teach me bad habits even though they're technically velocity sensitive...

At the moment I'm using a Launchkey 61 when not using my weighted digital piano.

I do also own a Roland VR-09, which by the way is incredibly hackable courtest of Ctrlr and a couple of custom panels. What is pretty cool about the Roland is, in organ mode the keys respond to hair trigger touch like a real B3, so you can do those really fast funky effects. I will probably always return to it for organ, at least until I can afford a real Hammond.

The arguments people are making about having a piece of hardware that you just turn on is certainly valid, but they are also comparing to a stock laptop running a general purpose OS, and also, clearly can afford to spend the money. For those of us who are so well off, Zynthian is a project that greatly streamlines things, and encompasses basically everything out there in the Linux audio ecosystem, including Pianoteq, on a Raspberry Pi. They're also just about to release a new version. I've been messing around with them for about a year now and they're the real deal.

Arturia KeyLab 88 [1]

Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88 [2]

Both with hammer action Fatar keybeds.

[1] https://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid-synths/keylab-88-mki...

[2] https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/keyb...

The best keyboard controllers are made by companies that also make pianos. What I'd recommend is searching for the term "stage piano" -- these are compact instruments that are designed to be a piano first but can also be used as a MIDI controller. You'll get solid piano sounds and an upper-end keyboard action from these out of the box, but can also hook up MIDI to your laptop if you want to explore software-based synthesizers/VSTs.

Most MIDI keyboards aren't really made for piano performance or even really for piano practice. If you want a MIDI controller for this reason, I'd recommend going to a music store near you (if applicable) and playing a few and feeling the keys and go with the one that feels nicest for your budget.

I bought my wife a Yamaha Arius YDP-184 and she loves it. It's not 100% like the baby grand she does lessons on, but it's close enough for most purposes. It has a MIDI interface, but it's not really easily portable.

I'm just a hobbyist, but I've been playing on and off since I was a kid. I have this exact model.

I definitely recommend it, but I'd suggest trying it out in-person if possible. The key weights seem very heavy to me.. but it's entirely possible that this is how higher-end pianos feel and I lack the experience/familiarity.

Seconded. My daughter plays piano, and we have one of these. The YDP line of pianos from Yamaha are very good value, obviously not the same as a grand piano but very very good for a digital piano, and has midi out.

It has midi out and presents itself as a USB audio interface. So if you go into the menu on the YDP itself and turn off the local sound, you can connect it to your laptop via USB and play virtual instruments on it, with the audio going right back out to the YDP's speakers.

I thought that was super cool when I realized that.

Agreed—I think the economics just don’t justify production of good MIDI controllers. Outside of one or two models, they’re mostly bad. You have to try keyboards out in the store to find one you like. They won’t be a good replica of a piano, but they may be something you like.

The Korg D1 is expensive but has a RH3 keybed, which you might like if you like keys to be on the heavier side.

The Roland A-88 is the closest I've found. It feels great, but it's expensive.

My Pod Studio UX 2 interface works on a M1 Ventura but most of the Line 6 software that I used (Pod Farm with multiple sound packs) doesn't works any more. I've to but Pod Farm 2.5. The software for loading patches to my Pod XT Live doesn't work either.

It's an old Software that runs on... Windows 10...

>> And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains that musicians have to go through.

Anyone doing it professionally will check all of their plugins/hardware has support for the latest macOS version before updating.

I DJ for money though I wouldn’t say professionally. I have a separate 2015 MacBook Pro with all my software installed and it’s not connected to the internet except to transfer new songs and manual updates to it.

I can promise you there are many, many professional musicians who will be first in line to upgrade their Mac.

I’m a professional programmer it’s not like I test if my mouse or keyboard will work with a new windows update.

None of the pro musicians I know leap to update their OS like that. Some of them even keep their music machines perpetually offline. These computers are tools for music which just happen to run some OS.

I follow the audio engineering subreddits and 'do not allow your computers to update' is an extremely common epithet, and updates wrecking a booked session is a very common complaint.

We're talking about guys who will use a trackball simply because it makes sure their cursor will be where they left it. Their demands for stability are beyond even what I have seen doing sysadmin at a hospital.

It's very well known plugins break with OS updates. The vendors usually send emails warning against updates. Someone making music at home for fun might update on day one, but no professional studio will.

Maybe amateurs…

Professionals tend to keep a stable system running for as long as possible. The first studio I worked in had a B room that was running OS 9 at a point where OS X had been out for 7 years.

My current setup at home is a 2010 MacMini on v10.13, using a firewire interface. I plan to keep it running as long as possible.

What do professionals do when the hardware fails? Do they have regular backups, then buy the same hardware on ebay and then restore the "golden" setup?

I recently tried to reinstall an old MacBook 13" that had a hard drive replacement. I couldn't log in to perform the install, Apple servers were throwing me an error. The only choice I had is to put another OS on it.

Pro Tools has been broken on virtually every major version release of MacOS as far as I can remember, I don't think pros are the ones eager to upgrade their OS. They do it begrudgingly as late as possible.

Logically yes, but anyone who’s been doing it for more than a couple years has been burned by an update at least once and won’t easily make that mistake again.

The mistake here is not the apple update but lack of backups.

Even if you properly backup everything and can downgrade after an update, you’re still burned by an update if it breaks your software. Which is why most musicians will be at least a major OS version behind, giving vendors the time to update.

The mistake here is that assuming things will forever remain the same and thus you don’t need to update your software, when security enhancements require it.

Sometimes... programmers are worse users than general users.

Yep. Truly a testament to how bad modern backwards compatibility has gotten.

Really? Which soundcard? I’ve always understood the core audio stuff to be very hassle free. That sounds like a huge problem and I’m really surprised the manufacturer didn’t fix that immediately unless it’s very legacy hardware.

It takes time to fix this stuff. It always has. I don’t know why.

Core audio is the API. You still need a driver for the audio interface. If it’s USB class compliant, then you get a driver for free. Not all devices are class compliant (for good reasons). You would be limited to the feature set provided by the USB audio class spec.

That’s true, but not working on Mac for a high end sound card is pretty catastrophic. I can’t think of any reputable brand besides maybe Antelope that has ever been straight up broken like that for any significant length of time. There would be riots on the audio forums if UAD or Motu or anyone else had that happen. I’m not an apple apologist, I use a PC for music production, it’s just surprising to me is all. I’m curious about what sound card it is so I can either avoid it or dig deeper into why.

I also think some of the comments in this thread about audio people never upgrading are a little dated. Maybe 10 years ago it was more common for someone to sit on an ancient version of Protools if they were a full time studio, but most of the market is hobbyists and semi professionals who have a single personal MacBook or PC that they use for everything, not just recording. Airgapping something like that isn’t really an option.

MOTU drivers didn’t work for months when some recent macOS came out. I think it was Catalina.

Audio people “never” upgrading is a bit extreme. But it is still extremely common to delay updates until you know that your gear works with the new OS. We’re not necessarily talking about some ancient version of Pro Tools here, but maybe a couple plugins you use that are getting long in the tooth. Maybe you would like to upgrade them, but you’d need to pay.

The biggest issue with Mac is they manage to break device drivers every 12 months like clockwork. On the other hand, Logic Pro is an absolute steal at the price they charge, and it’s gotten some huge (and free) updates.

If they decide to go subscription, the value proposition will be different

Same here. Tried to connect an old Midiman Midi interface to a recent MacOs. Oh boy. Someone built a driver and I´m grateful for that but it was quite something to get the thing working. It seemed to me a waste to buy a new piece of hardware for some antique technology like Midi, just because the driver of the old interface was not working any more. I don´t mind dealing with pain caused by computers in my day job. But in my free time as a musician all those technological hassles are a hindrance of creativity.

I’m not updating my music Macbook Pro anymore, I’m still on MacOS Catalina. VST’s break, (older) audio drivers stop working, etc. I spent too much time getting everything to work as it currently is.

>macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to audio

Like?

I have a MacBook M1 Max that has been nothing but a pain in the ass when it comes to the core audio. Anytime I attempt to use soft synths that peg the CPU at about 40 to 50%, the speakers will start to occasionally crackle/pop completely disrupting my flow.

Apparently it's not a completely unheard of problem no pun intended. I've had to go back to my windows machine (bitwig and FL) + MOTU, and pretty much abandoned Mac music with logic pro completely. Really ticks me off.

What audio interface were you using?

RME?

https://www.rme-audio.de/

Yes, a RME Fireface UC.

I owned a Push 2 and sold it after a year. Never got into it because the pads weren't very good. Soft touches sometimes triggered notes at max velocity which drove me nuts.

The Push 3 has more sophisticated pads with MPE and I'm very skeptical Ableton could pull that off with good QA.

The other thing that I find ridiculous is they sell you a barebones computer for $1,000 with an i3, 8GB of RAM, and 256GB SSD. A computer which you cannot use for anything else and you're dependent on Ableton to fix/replace.

For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro with more performance and a lot more battery time than 2.5 hours. An iPad can be bought and repaired on any country. If you're touring you can travel with a backup iPad or even buy one pretty much in any big city on Earth.

>For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro with more performance and a lot more battery time than 2.5 hours

This has a strong https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 vibe to it.

The computing-part hardware specs don't matter at all, the same way you don't compare the cpu specs of a phone or a synth to a laptop or tablet. This is about the interface, pads, firmware, comprehensiveness and convenience as a Live controller and as a standalone performance sequencer/drum machine/instrument.

The part that gets me is that it’s x86, and not even very recent x86. This CPU model was released for retail in Q3'20. It’s 10nm. I would have much preferred to see something like a 4nm Zen4 Ryzen or ideally, some combination of ASIC / ARM there.

The other annoying thing is that it doesn’t even include a Live standard license at this price, only Live Intro. That’s just being cheap on Ableton’s part.

The big benefit I see of this over something like a Linnstrument + iPad + iConnectivity AUDIO4c is portability and Live compatibility, but I’d personally wait and see how stable the software is before pulling the trigger. Relying on a brand new software stack on x86 to do the exact right things in perfect time for live music is a bet I wouldn’t take. I hope it’s amazing, and I’m sure lots of folks worked very hard on this, but the proof will be in the pudding. There’s a reason that you don’t see Pioneer and Denon decks / mixers or really any other live audio gear rocking x86.

> The computing-part hardware specs don't matter at all

Except when you're trying to run dozens of VST plugins which are extremely CPU hungry.

I'm pretty sure the Push 3 has been calculated to be able to run the plugins it needs to run - and without interruptions or other apps taking over the OS.

> to be able to run the plugins it needs to run

What does that even mean?

How many Diva instances can it run?

Edit:

And BTW, AKAI MPC users hit CPU limits all the time. And that's not even using heavy VSTs like Diva but the ARM optimized plugins included.

It can run zero diva instances. No third party plugins.

>What does that even mean?

It means that it has enough specs to run the plugins and use cases Ableton designed it for, and tested it with.

It's not a complete studio or meant to replace a desktop studio computer for all uses. It's a dedicated standalone thing, and has its own capabilities and limitations. So, like any other "groovebox" style device.

I think this take is also a bit shallow, given the maker touts the specs as a selling point. Arguing about the specs for the price shouldn't be shunned upon in these circumstances.

From the marketing piece:

> Intel 11th Gen Core™ i3-1115G4 processor with 8GB of RAM Built-in lithium battery with up to 2.5 hours play time Built-in 256GB SSD hard drive Replace processor, battery and hard drive as technology improves

Point is not the hardware specs. The point is that the iPad Pro makes an excellent portable musical workstation on the go as well (GarageBand comes with it, and Logic Pro has been ported over). So if you had to choose one this becomes a relevant comparison point.

The other thing about the iPad is that it’s pretty stable and predictable, with a very mature OS and very mature hardware. It’s also commodity, so if it gets stolen on a tour or smashed or beer spilled on it, it’s not hard to find an Apple Store anywhere in the world and pick up a replacement. That’s huge for touring musicians.

They don't matter at all to the market, but they do matter to the quality of the product.

If I can trivially make a better version of the thing you are selling at 1/3rd the price, then something isn't right.

you remember individual comments from 15 years ago?

That one in particular is somewhat famous and gets trotted out as an example of a bad, wrong take, highly upvoted and missing the point of the product because the audience here is so technical they can barely perceive normal users' problems

It's sort of ironic now, though, because Dropbox has not been doing very well the last few years, because their product wasn't novel enough to compete with the better-integrated solutions from Microsoft, Apple, and Google that Dropbox inspired

>It's sort of ironic now, though, because Dropbox has not been doing very well the last few years

Yes, but not for the reasons that famous comment thought it wouldn't (people ...trivially rolling their own with Linux+FTP+SVN or whatever). If anything, for the opposite reasons: because even more turnkey/integrated solutions than Dropbox became available as you say. Which makes that comment appear even more off now!

(Of course the point of that comment was already obliterated when Dropbox turned on to become a multi-billion worth company, even if it's "not doing very well" 15+ years after the comment was made. We could only wish we have that kind of "failure"!).

Well, the original comment made 3 distinct arguments which can basically be summed up as:

1) Its feature-set is easily duplicated (from a technical perspective)

2) It doesn't solve one particular use-case (that it wasn't designed to solve)

3) It's hard to imagine it catching on, let alone making money

Point #1 was widely mocked after Dropbox caught on, but turned out to be kind of correct - it just wasn't end-users that mimicked its feature-set, it was other companies.

Point #2 is irrelevant.

Point #3 was hilariously wrong. It went viral as hell, and the founders could've rode off into the sunset with a boatload of cash if they sold the company to Apple when they were approached. In the alternate universe where that happened, Apple devices just have a Dropbox feature instead of iCloud, a la Siri and Shazam.

Regarding #1, being easily replicated by end-users was the whole point of Point #1 in the original comment. It rested entirely on how easy it is to just slap such a thing together, and how people will just do it and skip using Dropbox which would mean the product would fail.

Whether it could be duplicated by other companies (with billions in the bank and thousands of engineers and OS/device access for integration) is irrelevant to the original comment's point.

This comment is unusually well known. If you google the url wrapped in quotes, you'll see it referred to as "the famous/infamous dropbox comment".

It's become something of a symbol for how hackernews commenters sometimes confidently miss the appeal of products/services. It's relevant here because the Push 3 doesn't compete with iPads on processing power.

It's a rather notorious HN comment, pretty much our equivalent of "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame."

Wow, I had forgotten about that! Could just as well replace it here :)

The linked comment is something of an in-joke on Hacker News. BrandonM famously provided some quick, critical feedback on a Dropbox announcement. Dropbox of course went on to see a lot of success.

Edit: it looks like a few other folks responded with a similar comment as I did. Sorry to spam you.

No, it's a famous comment that has become sort of a HN/hackerspace meme.

Oh, yes, I know one of those comments too

> No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

(iPod launch, CmdrTaco, /. 2001)

“But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” —Carl Sagan

(Though I'd prefer Galileo in the top spot instead of Columbus; if anything Columbus could replace Bozo: the people that laughed at him were actually completely right, not failing to recognize his genius.)

> For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro

Swap real pads and knobs for a touch screen? No thanks, even if they would give it to me for free. Not judging Ableton stuff prices, and I'm also not into this kind of devices (aside my Korg Padkontrol) because as a prog rock wannabe musician I would probably have little use for them, but when using electronic instruments, nothing comes close to real things you can manipulate, read state, and get tactile feedback from. Touch screens can look indeed cool, but they're way behind real controls when it comes to input capabilities.

I only meant the computer part, not the controller.

As an electronic musician, I will gladly pay a premium for any device that reduces the number of boxes and wires I have to set up at every gig. (As well as reduce the number of things I have to turn on, which might decide not to turn on.)

Is redundancy when touring something you value as well?

I don't tour, only gig locally, so redundancy of anything > $15 isn't worth it. But when you have 20 minutes to set up, 10 minutes to tear down and no roadies, not having an additional device + stand + power + MIDI + audio cables to mess with / trip over / forget is worth spending money on.

If I did tour, yes, I would want backup equipment where feasible.

This is...completely missing the point. It honestly blows my mind how often exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect make it to the top on HN. You know that feeling you get as a programmer watching, like, two people code on the same keyboard on CSI or whatever? That's the feeling anyone with expertise in a domain other than programming gets when reading comments on HN regarding said domain.

The most fundamental appeal of the Push is that it is a very nicely-integrated hardware controller, and -- this is the big thing -- has physical knobs, buttons, pads, etc, a massive selling point to loads and loads and loads of musicians.

An iPad by definition lacks the latter, and will never approach the integration of the Push no matter how much work you put into whichever controller app you're using (TouchOSC, etc). And that's even before you consider the fact that the Push also doubles as an audio interface.

Literally no one in the Push's audience is looking to replace/upgrade the Push's hardware. No one cares what CPU it has. I'm honestly surprised that Ableton published the specs, because it just doesn't matter. It's not a "computer" (even though, yes, technically it is indeed a computer). Depending on which model you buy, its raison d'etre is as an accessory to a computer, more specifically a very specific application; or an appliance designed to run one app and one app only. You might as well be saying that you'd rather buy an iPad over a Tesla because the iPad has a better CPU.

Obviously I meant replacing the computer part with an iPad, not the controller.

> No one cares what CPU it has

Good luck running a dozen instances of Diva if you don't care about the CPU :)

> Obviously I meant replacing the computer part with an iPad, not the controller.

> Good luck running a dozen instances of Diva if you don't care about the CPU

Good luck running...most plugins, u-he or otherwise, on an iPad.

That said, the question of which plugins will/won't work running directly on the Push is an interesting question. It runs Linux, no? u-he is one of the few "big" plugin devs that supports Linux, but if I had to guess, the standalone Push 3 will run first-party Ableton plugins only.

> Good luck running...most plugins, u-he or otherwise, on an iPad.

Yeah that's a good point. OTOH all the U-He stuff is already ARM native for macOS.

But my point about the iPad was more about comparing the cost. If Ableton had chosen to sell the computer part at a more reasonable price (say $300) I would't have even mentioned it.

> Yeah that's a good point. OTOH all the U-He stuff is already ARM native for macOS.

Right, the problem is not a technical one, it's an app ecosystem one. Urs has spoken about this at length on KVR. This IMO is a great reason for Ableton to have not gone the iPad route, because it's a problem that doesn't look like it'll be solved anytime soon.

That's the nice thing about this, you don't need a dozen instances of diva for a live set. If you're traveling and using this, you can freeze the tracks. Otherwise if you're at home you can plug in to your real computer and run as many instances of Diva at Divine quality as you want.

But also this likely won't support Diva, probably just Operator, Analog, etc.

You:

> Literally no one in the Push's audience is looking to replace/upgrade the Push's hardware.

Ableton:

> Replace processor, battery and hard drive as technology improves

And why do people want to throw around the Dunning-Kruger effect in so many discussions. Does it help your point ?

Can an iPad run Live?

Ableton could have made an app to run the Live engine controlled by the Push.

After all, they are probably running some Linux distro in the Push 3 so they had to invest in that anyway.

>Ableton could have made an app to run the Live engine controlled by the Push.

And it wouldn't have pads, dedicated dials, MIDI, inputs and outputs, MPE, and everything else. It would be just a big screen with a iPad-like touch UI. So nothing like this.

I never meant for the iPad to replace the controller. Just the computer part.

Well, but the comparison was for it as a substitute for (or better value than) Push. Well, as we conclude here, Push does something different.

iPad does MIDI. You can do Bluetooth MIDI and if you want cables you can buy a dongle.

If anyone’s interested, the Oxi One is pretty awesome for sequencing bluetooth gear as well as midi and CV devices. I didn’t have super high hopes as it was a Kickstarter device, but they’ve surprised me by continually updating it, and it’s a pretty fantastic machine now.

I believe it. They could also update Live to support the Tesla Model X, since it has an x86 Linux computer inside too.

It's a lot of work though. And the pay sucks, especially on iPad/iOS where Apple refuses to let you make a profit without letting them take a bite. On MacOS it's a sustainable practice, but unless Apple changes something architecturally I wouldn't anticipate Live coming to iOS anytime soon. At least any sooner than Linux support, which is apparently(?) finished internally.

>Linux support, which is apparently(?) finished internally.

By the grace of the flying spaghetti monster, please let this be true... Ableton is the last program stopping me from leaving Windows behind.

Not right now, but they have an app called Note: https://www.ableton.com/en/note/

As of today it can run Logic Pro. The feature parity is there, most people consider using one or the other a matter of personal preference.

>The feature parity is there, most people consider using one or the other a matter of personal preference.

For musicians (professional or semi-pro) that use Logic on a laptop the feature parity is nowhere there. They depend on tens of AUs ("VSTs") that aren't available on the iPad for example, on top of lots of other stuff.

Those VSTs won’t run on a push 3 either.

Of course ableton comes with a pretty good array of instruments and effects, so maybe this isn’t that big a deal.

Yes, the VST's won't run on a Push either.

But the context in this subthread was addressing the parent's claim that Logic on iPadOS has complete parity with Logic macOS and can replace it in its use - not Push.

Logic definitely has more plugins for way less money though.

FL's default plugins embarrass them both. I haven't used any Image-Line software in a dog's age, but I really miss the Fruity Loops compressor sometimes...

I found FL's plugins (default and extra) to be cheesy and too mainstream-EDM/trap/etc based.

I haven’t used it on iPad yet, I meant in regards to desktop.

Biggest issue on iPad is lack of device drivers. Class Compliant audio only gets you so far.

FabFilter? Eventide? Pianoteq? Sugarbytes? It’s starting to get decent out there.

Does Logic Pro support controller extensions? If they do, they could add "support" with an unofficial plugin like Bitwig or Reaper does. Something tells me the iPad+Push experience wouldn't really be a gamechanger though, at least right now.

Agree, I think it will be limited. However, I could see a niche where it’s a good way to play your tracks live. Maybe you’d have to bounce some tracks in advance if they aren’t iOS compatible for whatever reason.

I want to interpret this charitably, but I've travelled with touring musicians before (even Mac-obsessed ones) and none of their setups are iPad-ible. You might be able to get it to work with a 1i1o DAC for clean audio output, but... genuinely nobody I know would bother with that. The requirements for live performance are brutal, even this standalone Push would be borderline suicide to rely on for a show.

Been making electronic music for well over a decade, but always in the classic DAW arrangement view, at most using MIDI keyboards in terms of haptic input devices but relying on mouse and keyboard 95% of the time. I look at devices like Push or Maschine and my immediate thought is how tedious it seems to get anything done with them. I find the different approaches to manifesting musical ideas endlessly fascinating.

As someone in a similar position as yourself, but who been using hardware instead of software like DAWs, I find myself having a similar feeling to people who use keyboard/mouse to make music like that, seems really tedious compared to the workflow I have outside of the computer.

But most importantly, I agree with your very last sentence, we're all different and what's optimal differs a lot from person to person.

Coming up with a riff/melody is much faster on an actual instrument (if you know how to use it). Turning that melody into a piece of good music is much faster in a DAW (if you know how to use it). If you lack skill in DAW usage or you're not making "finished" music, being instrument only is a legit approach, but learning and integrating a DAW would help you make better music.

I find grid based systems like Ableton great for getting short loops together but making the jump to a finished track is a lot harder.

I have folders full of sketches I've built up in years of using it but very few things I'd call finished.

What I do to get over this - as soon as I have an 8+ bar loop i like i paste it into Arrangement view so it fills up a 5 minute song, and then I start taking parts out. Gives me a basic “song” to start fleshing out.

I do something similar to this too- sometimes making 2-4 scenes and pasting some basic form in the arrangement.

From there, I see it the way a sculptor might see a slab of rock, and start “carving out” the song.

Funny enough I always found the opposite, I find Renoise great for making short loops but putting them together into a full track to be a pain, and then visa-versa with Ableton and software like it.

The OP-1 is where I've found this to be especially the case, incredibly easy to make a loop on but never managed to make a full song on it, aside from using mutes/effects on a single loop to stretch it out into a full track

I found the OP 1 especially difficult for this. I never got used to the tape recording workflow. It's a pity because I really liked it otherwise.

A heavy Push 2 user here. Completely redefined my music creation workflow in Ableton. For me, it's a genuinely enjoyable way of turning ideas into music and has made the process incredibly more 'open' for me.

When I'm doing sample-based sequencing I find the Push 2 nearly perfect, but when I'm composing with midi I find it nearly intolerable. It kind of has a "What kind of EDM would you like to make today?" view of the world. But in the workflows it's designed for the Push series is brilliant.

It's a 'barrier to entry' thing. To get the kind of skills that you need for good keyboard work is a lifetime of dedication, but once you've got it it is very quick and easy compared to something like the Ableton Push and other such devices.

But that initial barrier is such that a beginner will be able to get much more mileage out of such a device. They might never even run into the limitations though it may limit the musical space that they can work in on some dimensions.

In the end what matters is the result, not so much how it was reached.

I think it is also a huge issue that there is no methodology or virtuoso pieces to aim at in order to spend hours a day practicing on the Push.

I grew up playing classical guitar and use to own a Ztar and this was the issue I had with it. My guitar chops transferred to it pretty nicely but it is still its own instrument. Own instrument with no music or practice material, no transcriptions of anything other than what you come up with yourself.

How far would anyone get learning piano if they had to also come up with the music and practice material outside of drilling scales concurrently with learning the instrument itself? It would just be a nearly useless gimmicky instrument.

It's a fair point, but it's not a completely barren landscape. Melodics (https://melodics.com/) is one platform aimed at developing pad controller skills. For a much more rigorous and far less marketing-driven approach, I really recommend Quest for Groove (https://questforgroove.com/) which develops a lot more than just the physical dexterity required to drum on one of these things.

As with anything, it does just take practice, and these instruments are so much easier to play than something like a guitar that just noodling around will also get you places.

I'm just an amateur of a similar amount of time, but I think it comes down to what inspires someone to create whether it's a physical interface or a graphical one. A little inspiration can overcome a lot of inefficiency. I prefer a tracker, but still want something like a DAW.

Sunvox is pretty great for quickly roughing out an idea. I use my MIDI keyboard for building patterns. I'll record the notes for a pattern and then play it back in a loop to adjust the rest of the parameters. I use the other mapped controls live until I have what I want. I prefer having tons of physical controls ready to go for this part. I have a few project files I always start from and their corresponding templates are saved into the keyboard. Then I go into audacity and record my guitar, voice, or whatever else to a click and import them into the timeline. I think it's more important to have your workflow down than be distracted by new shiny toys.

Hm after formal education from producers and audio engineers for some EDM artists I respect, I think the Push 2 is the best re-build of music sequencing since the 1600s, comparing it directly to invention of sheet music and an improvement over that, with the addition of being able to input and execute the sounds in a very efficient way. But with its own learning curve.

But one of the main things that saves time is how loud or soft each note is. Doing this in a DAW is far more tedious, neglected completely for just repetitive electronic music, or requires scripting to provide random-ish entropy to each note. Whereas with a Push its based on how hard you press.

To add some objectivity to this, I would say its more about the learning curve, I couldn't expect someone to pick up a Push and get anywhere fast with it.

But I think people familiar with a keyboard and mouse would benefit from a Push and accelerate their work.

It's a trade off.

I prefer to be DAWless when I am in "discovery mode" or just want to jam around like with a regular instrument. However when I am ready to assembly everything into a song I prefer to use a DAW.

Agreed. I have a few similar boards here at home and rarely use them. They're a pain to set up, you spend more time configuring channels and whatnot, and half the time, the DAW has problems even seeing them given the abysmal state of MIDI driver management on e.g. Windows.

I don't love working with them all the time (I use the original MPC Live for, well, live shows), but you can create whatever you want on a computer, in a DAW / whatever and then work on it separately when you want to be untethered from your computer.

Do you have any thoughts on the ROLI?

Personally, I don't really like the Push platform, having previously owned a Push 2.

I can understand the value of it if you're performing live, however the hard reality is that it's a really inefficient way to create electronic music. The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.

With that said, maybe that's for you. But if you're trying to make advanced productions as quickly as possible, then I really see no value in the Push. You could of course use it as a MIDI controller, but it's a damn expensive one if your sole purpose is to use it as a MIDI controller.

A keyboard and a mouse might be faster in some instances, but they are also far less musically expressive. When it comes to putting emotion into music, I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.

In terms of speed, I'm also not sure how quickly you can create articulations like vibrato and slides with a mouse and keyboard, but that seems like it would be fairly tedious to do manually? Wouldn't that require a lot of envelope tweaking?

Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.

When it comes to putting emotion into music, I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.

This is exactly my experience. I started with mouse/keyboard only fiddling with electronic music (no music background whatsoever) and the day I bought a basic MIDI controller I ended up playing it until it was time to go to work the next morning.. It was such an overwhelming experience, not just the keys themselves but also the buttons and the trackpad. Finally I could just do all these tiny variations which make groove on the spot, immediately, in infinite variations, instead of going back and forth dragging things with a mouse in only one dimension.

I disagree with this sentiment, but I also think it comes down to how you approach music.

For me at least, music originates from my imagination. It starts in my head, not from playing an instrument, so to speak. I say this as a composer, not as a musician.

Sure, if you really mastered an instrument i.e. Push 3, then you could use it as a form of expression. But when you're composing, often you're trying to tame many different instruments and ideas at once, so I find it much easier to do it all in my head first, and then think of the quickest way to translate it all into the computer, and for me that's the mouse and keyboard.

I'm also primarily a song writer/producer, so for me I think in terms of composition after the fact i.e. once the lyrics have been written. But yeah, I certainly do appreciate those who can utilise platforms like the Push 3. However I would still argue that even if it is what works for you, it's still ultimately slower. Again, nothing wrong with that if it works for you.

> I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.

Completely agree. I currently run 5 MIDI controllers with Ableton: 3 Launchpads (one for launching clips, and the other two for controlling step sequencers), a Launch Control for knobs, and a basic 61-key MIDI keyboard.

I used to do it all with a mouse, but when I added that first Launchpad for punching in sequences by hand, I felt so much more creative.

Clearly, I still use the mouse for lots of things. And, doing everything by way of a controller (like the Push) is not really desirable to me. But creating patterns, playing chords/melodies on the keys, and tweaking synth params with hardware pots by hand just feels better. Like you, I don't have to think about what I'm doing. I just do it. Clicking in notes on piano roll really can't compete. imo.

> Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.

This is the most important thing you said IMO. Maybe keyboard shortcuts and ninja mouse skills can get you into a flow state, "improvisation" mode, but chances are your composer brain will be in the lead.

That's not the point of the parent comment. For the expressive feel of a "real instrument", just a MIDI controller would do. The Push's are a lot more than just a MIDI controller, though. As a Push 2 owner, I use the other features way too little for them to be worth it to me, and I wouldn't buy it again. As a MIDI controller, it's my go-to. Mostly because I don't have much else than that and some old synths.

Most instruments have parameters for things like vibrato that you can set quickly by "drawing" them with a mouse under the note in reaper (and probably other daws). Slide isn't really a normal thing with midi, you'd need the instrument plugin to explicitly support it using some sort of parameter, but if one was present it'd be easy to set via the mouse.

I mean... You can do that, but I don't think you're going to enjoy the process compared with playing a physical instrument.

If you aren’t great at piano then using a push in note scale mode is fantastic. Another benefit is when recording automation you can turn the knobs to add a human element over something like point and clicking points. It’s an excellent tool for creating music, not just for live.

> The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.

It's really up to personal preference and what you are most trained with. I'm sure I could make a full song faster than at least 50% of Ableton users on a Analog Rytm and/or the Octatrack, as I could probably do that workflow in my sleep. But I'm also use that 99% of Ableton users could use Ableton faster than me to create full songs, simply because I'm much more used to using hardware than software.

Just like some people are better with console controllers than keyboard/mouse, even when playing FPS games, it's just a matter of practice (although FPS example has a skill-ceiling I don't think exists in music creation, so slightly shitty example)

This is a reason ableton live is called ... live. It is made to create music with the idea to play it live. The Push is the actual controller for the live performance.

Finger-drumming and using the sequencer in Push is much faster than clicking in MIDI notes for me.

The Push 1 looked like a prototype. The Push 2 is such a massive improvement. It’s visually and functionally perfect. It was hard to find fault in its design and workflow (if you are a Live aficionado of course). If you don’t like the uniqueness of Live, you can’t like the Push. (But you can still like Live without liking the Push).

Obviously, a lot (if not all) of the Push UX is only possible and satisfying because of how closely it integrates with Live.

I didn’t think a Push 3 would come so soon, because I couldn’t see how the hardware or design could be improved. I was wrong. It seems the design has been slightly improved. But I never thought Ableton would release a stand-alone version of the Push. It’s a hefty price tag, it doesn’t support third party plugins, and its portability is limited. But I can’t shake off the idea that Ableton just released the ultimate musical device for someone like me.

Honestly for live stuff, you don’t want plugins generating in real-time anyway. You want tight recordings / loops, samples at most, or a couple of external synths. There are so dang many compact “desktop” synths that are massively powerful these days that it’s hard to recommend any above the others, but I do really love the PreenFM 2 and 3, and the developer is amazing. It’s basically the pinnacle of open source FM synthesis if you’re ever interested in that.

From the Ondes Martenot [1] to the Haken Continuum fingerboard [2], this type of wiggling finger motion for vibrato is so intuitive, I wish more discrete controllers proposed it as a per-note pitch bend (which MPE makes possible, but can also be achieved with RPN/NRPNs in MIDI 1.x).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlzPHeN1VLQ

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrmp2EaVChI

Best Hendrix impersonation I've ever heard: https://youtu.be/jh-hzbG5FzI

Marco's version of purple rain [1] remains one of the most impressive pieces of live performance I've ever seen.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fQbtp2BgY4

Setting the musician's prowess aside, that guitar synth engine is remarkable at rendering the subtle tone nuances of the continuous controls given by the Seaboard.

Pretty cool!

I had the privilege of playing with the Push 3 a few weeks ago. If you owned a Push before, it’s exactly what you think it is: basically the Push you always wanted. The fact that it’s a standalone device now is brilliant. So is the built-in battery. Just super, super convenient.

Controls are mostly self-explanatory. It has a fantastic tutorial when you first use it; overall a really polished experience. The MPI on the pads is very impressive, although I didn’t spend enough time to see how useful I personally will find it. The build quality is awesome though. That large wheel on the top right has the slickest horizontal shift movement I’ve ever experienced on a knob.

It’s just slick. And yes, I just ordered one :D.

Stop man, I was trying to talk myself out of buying one and now you got me reconsidering it. I was trying to look out for my bank account.

What do you think about the materials of the device? The Push 3 looks amazingly interesting to me but the 2 has a lot of comments about plastics not ageing well. It's not a device one would want to replacer anytime soon, so I'm really wondering if it will last basically.

The one I played was flawless, but that ofc is a sample size of 1.

My Push 2 also has one rotary knob that doesn’t rotate as well and it always annoyed the hell out of me. The plastics did age well on my Push 2 though.

I'm sceptical. I own a Push 2 and the build quality is not terrible, but not awesome either. For example, every knob has a different resistance (how hard it is to turn) and sensitivity (how much you have to turn to change a parameter).

Wow, I guess the zeitgeist now is to make upgradeable/repairable devices. That's very cool, I like it.

Any information about replacing the battery?

The upgrade kit contains a battery pack so it's user replaceable.

It seems it runs on DC power only.

It has a 2h-2.5h Li-ion battery.

Very steep prices. Can buy a decent MacBook Air for the cost of the standalone version. Would have been nice to see them keep the old model around with a reduced price for people less well off.

The price is quite reasonable. You shouldn't compare it to a MacBook Air but to other stand alone boxes with built in controllers like the Akai MPC X which is €2400, the Akai Force, which is quite Ableton-like and which costs €1200.

It also comes with an MPE controller and those are not cheap.

Don't you mean "it is an MPE controller"?

The secondary market for instruments like these are flush with hardware, which is true for the Push too. You can basically find it almost unused with huge rebates if you go second-hand.

At ~2000 dollars, one can buy mid-high end digital piano made of wood with realistic key action.

https://dcpianos.com/products/kawai-ca48-the-ultimate-piano-...

You can add beats, different sound libraries, and maybe you can add a microphone looper for ~300 dollars extra.

I sit in front of an Oberheim MC 3000, and love the piano-like playing experience and use every key.

However, it is disingenuous to compare a groovebox to a digital piano. It's also bold to assume that someone wants or needs 88 keys or even wants piano-like action. It's something different. That's valid. If it isn't for you or me, that's also valid.

I believe a lot of the Push 2 stock will be given away to education. https://www.ableton.com/en/classroom/push/

Weird, I just this morning was looking at my Push 2 and thought "I wonder when they'll make a standalone Push 3".

The price is a lot higher than I was expecting. I'd definitely love to not be tied to the computer, but in reality I'm in most instances going to be next to a laptop. Hard to say if it's worth it.

Edit: I do love that if you buy the cheaper model, you can still upgrade it to add a hard drive and processor later. That's a great feature.

So they built a Linnstrument? Honestly don't know who was first, but I know I looked at the Linnstrument a long time ago (when my daughter Linn was really young, she's 13 now).

The Linnstrument looks better and has more buttons, and more is better, right?

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/linnstrument

The idea behind Push is you can control everything in Live with it. It's not a generic MIDI controller like a Launchpad. It's a full hardware interface to a specific piece of software.

The first Push was released in 2013, the Linnstrument in 2014.

I own a Linnstrument. I used to own a Push 2. They're very different.

Everything has (or will eventually have) MPE so everyone is "just building Linnstruments", just like everyone has been "just building MPCs".

The touch interface of the Linnstrument has limitations that the Push probably doesn't. For example, the Linnstrument can register no more than three simultaneous touches in a single column.

And Linnstrument is open source. And is a generic MIDI controller that works with any MPE compatible synth and any MPE VSTi instruments - such as Audio Modeling. The Push doesn't support VSTi.

Push does support VSTi when you connect it to your PC.

I understand that. But it would be most excellent if they supported VSTi in standalone mode.

Your initial post seemed to be comparing the Push and the Linnstrument.

It would also be excellent if the Linnstrument supported VSTs at all.

They seem to be identical in this respect.

Have you seen the Soundplane (https://madronalabs.com/soundplane)?

"Looks better" meaning "aesthetically more pleasing".

>>more is better, right?

yes. always.

Very hard to compete against Push as Ableton refuses to document their nightmare of an API. Even with Push source code decompiled, it's very difficult to make sense of it all.

Is there a GitHub repo or similar effort where people have been working on this?

Here's a repo with all "built-in" scripts for MIDI controllers decompiled. https://github.com/gluon/AbletonLive10.1_MIDIRemoteScripts/

Have a look at pushbase and Push2 to look at Push source code.

A starter kit I use when bootstrapping projects: https://github.com/R9295/ableton-live-control-surface-starte...

To the best of my knowledge, this is as far as it goes. The blogs and articles I found are mostly out of date as Ableton has two versions of it's API and blogs mostly use v1. I wouldn't work on anything serious using v1 of the API

Many controllers, including Push use v2 as it's allegedly simpler and more featured. I talked to a person working at Native Instruments and they also told me that their experience with the API was a nightmare.

I don't know about the Push 3, but my impression with the Push 2 was that python code bundled with Ableton Live rendered the actual screen contents seen on the Push.

Does that seem correct to you? And if so, with some amount of reverse engineering work, shouldn't it be possible to send those same pixels over to an iPad app that pretends to be a Push?

(It wouldn't be the same without real pads/touch controls, of course, but it might form the spine of a pretty good remote control app?)

Thank you!

Similar, but with chess pieces https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWaOYCLx2-Y

(using https://openchessboard.com/ )

Not sure how similar it is really. What you linked is a sequencer, which is just a small part of a device like Push.

Looks like they nailed it.

1. Users have been asking for Push 3 for years

2. MPE support looks great

3. Now it's here - and standalone

4. It's modular - you can start out with the non-standalone version and upgrade later

I think my ideal setup is still the Push 2. You’ve got your mouse and keyboard for more tedious workflows and VST usage, and then the Push as an expressive platform to jam with and explore ideas on. Best of both worlds.

It seems like the Push standalone was designed for performers in mind? Would be pretty sweet to not have to bring a laptop up on stage with you, I’d imagine, especially if your setup is modular and otherwise DAW-less.

TBH this looks like the MPC Live (except done with by people with a bit of taste.)

Sketch out things when you're out and about, some simple recordings etc., then bring it back to the studio and just plug it in and have everything there. It's a good plan, and it looks like a great execution, too.

The Mpc live is a full DAW in a box (with speakers too!) though. At first glance this seems more like a portable drum loop machine.

This is literally Ableton Live, an actual DAW, in a box.

I think the real power of the stand-alone is being able to take it to inspiring places to write music or even just laying on the sofa and then you can plug in and transfer to the computer later for mixing and in-depth editing.

Nice to see that this device unlike many others is up-gradable. Battery can be replaced and even the CPU can be replaced.

I've been rocking the Push 1 since near the launch date, and didn't really feel compelled by the Push 2 to upgrade. The Push 1 is so well designed and pleasure to play with, it feels as much like an instrument as my guitar, and less like a tech object that can become obsolete. But looks like I'll be buying a Push 3.

"Send your Live sets to Push to work without a computer, then back again."

That's a killer feature for me. I bought an Akai Force about a year ago so that I could play my solo electronic stuff at open mics without needing to bring a laptop and audio interface as well as my Push 1. But after spending a good amount of time with it, the Force just doesn't feel as well thought out for live gigs as the Push. A lot of functions I want to perform live require 2 hands on the force (so I can't play notes with my right hand and manage the controller with my left), or require doing a long-press which effectively means a big latency on enabling the function. I need to watch some demo videos to make sure they haven't ditched any of the focus on live performance without pauses, but this looks like what I hoped the Force would be.

Looks like they've already updated the online manual to include Push 3, will have to dig through that later, but some initial thoughts from the photos: I like some of the new button placement, undo is far away from anything, Double is no longer right next to Quantize. Solo and Mute being smaller might be an issue, it might not be. I wonder what the lock and square buttons do. New "Convert" button makes me think they've added a dedicated button for audio->MIDI conversion which seems great. Looks like there's a new metronome button? I like it, but I might just continue using a hidden track with a custom metronome loop.

MPE and CV-capable output are also nice bonuses.

The specs are a bit weak, but more than capable for a live set with several synthesizers and samplers. I bet you can swap out the SSD for a bigger one, I wonder if you could swap out the RAM or CPU as well, since you can purchase the non-standalone device and buy their upgrade kit to manually install the PC components.

I wonder what kind of software it is running on standalone mode

It's probably a Linux stack. A lot of pro-audio companies have internal Linux versions, but don't ship them because of support / packaging reasons (which are miserable on Linux). That goes away for embedded usage.

I't think, it's not packaging. From RPM to DEB to Snap to flatpack there are lots of options. But support I get. KDE, Gnome or whatever choice of window manager, many different distributions etc., that sounds like support hell.

The problem isn't lack of options, it's too many. Also things like Snap and Flatpack don't work well if you're loading plugins in-process (e.g. VSTs).

Seems like a good guess. It would also explain why it doesn't support plugins.

Was wondering this too. Considering Ableton itself doesn't support Linux out-of-the-box, wonder if the device runs some sort of Windows on it, or if Ableton for Linux might be coming in the future.

Maschine+ by Native Instruments (basically the same device but by another company) runs Linux although Maschine desktop software does not support Linux, so maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up.

I used to work for NI, and at that time (15 years ago) almost everything worked on Linux. But it wasn't shipped because of packaging and support.

Now that I'm back to the audio software business, our current product has shipped on Linux so far, but we're dropping support in the next version because of the disproportionate support costs. To a first approximation, Linux support a bit more expensive than supporting macOS or Windows, with about 1/50th the return.

Again, that calculus would change for embedded usage.

By support do you mean that Linux users have more questions than macOS/Windows users? Or that porting/writing/updating/building the code takes more time?

It's a bunch of stuff.

- Standard libraries for audio software are less tested on Linux and tend to be buggier there, and we have to chase down those bugs.

- There are a bajillion versions of Linux, and even if you say you only support some subset of those, Linux users will ignore that and still write to support when it doesn't work on their distro / version. Sometimes that even extends to writing bad reviews online.

- Packaging on Linux is annoying since there are a bunch of different formats, and nothing will make everyone happy.

Because of those issues, we probably get almost as much support mail for Linux as for macOS or Windows, despite Linux being 1% of our user base. From a cost perspective, it just doesn't make sense to keep supporting it. Ironically, we'll keep developing it, because we do some of the development on Linux, and often test on Linux before Windows. From what I know of other companies: we're not unique there, and I thought some of this might be interesting info for pro-audio Linux users.

If it were me, I'd just focus on making sure it works well on Fedora. PipeWire is in the OOBE, and is where a good chunk of pro audio folks have settled due to top-notch PipeWire support.

This is exactly the sort of email we get. Except that this would literally be the first request for Fedora, exactly exemplifying our problem. (Most of our users request things with Ubuntu / Debian bases.)

I hope you don't work on anything I depend on!

You should not buy just in case anyone at Ableton is watching, I'm buying the fuck out of your offering the day it has linux support.

Interesting that standalone is powered by Intel and not ARM (Intel 11th Gen Core™ i3-1115G4 processor with 8GB of RAM).

I wonder why? They already support Live on Apple Silicon.

CDM [1] reports that standalone is running Linux on that intel core, so they have Live running on Linux Intel. Maybe it was too much work to get running on Linux ARM? Or maybe performance just wasn’t good enough?

1 - https://cdm.link/2023/05/new-ableton-push/

When I preordered the Akai MPC Live, just before release, I was super excited. Quite disappointed afterwards, when found Live meant absolutely nothing more then marketing. The question was, when was Ableton going to release a standalone version? Used to spend a lot of energy on Akai community forum and always felt that the community was toxic, even though I was an early supporter of Akai MPC, during premium Japan (2000, 2000xl, s2000, 2500) before it being bought by inmusic or whatever it’s called. I jumped to the Deluge, sold first purchase and bought again after they announced live looping but end up selling again. End up selling the MPC Live too, it was a dust collector, a big chunky pointless machine, very toxic community. At the time there were rumours about a Push Standalone and even evidence. We had to wait until 2023 and a new chapter begins that makes the MPC pointless.

Obviously the workflow is very different, but it looks like they're going after the Deluge. Whilst I can't afford either device, I'm always happy to see standalone boxes that can produce full tracks on their own.

A bit off tangent, but a (very) minor reason I like to see that is because their capabilities are much easier to research. If you go watch a video of the deluge in action, you'll see what the deluge can do. Aside from in a few cases, if you go on youtube and search for Moog Subharmonicon videos, you can see what you can do with it IF you combine it with a full board of effects, a massive modular synth and an expensive midi keyboard, but if you want to see what it can do on its own, keep looking.

Related, saw this...synth(?) thinger yesterday and I really really want one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivuy9QYLFVY

So cool! Not sure where they are in producing it, but it's neat!

That's a sequencer. It doesn't produce sound by itself, but produces notes to be used for other devices to produce sound.

You might be better off getting a Circuit Tracks or something (any groovebox) before diving deeper into the hobby, it will be more gratifying than buying individual hardware like that.

They said version 2 will be a midi generator, version 1 a midi controller. I have an OP-1 and OP-Z, looking to go in a different direction.

That doesn't make much sense. A MIDI controller generates MIDI notes, like when you press a key there is two MIDI notes being sent, one "on" and one "off". When you use something like an arpeggiator, the MIDI controller would generate one MIDI note each 1/8 for as long as you hold the key.

Or what would be the functional difference between a MIDI generator and controller?

Did anybody find any references to the materials on the outside of the Push 3?

I loved the Push 2 but if it got any amount of sunlight on it the rubber outer shell would sweat and become this sticky rubber mess. I don't have a fully protected area to keep the device in and it became so gross it was unpleasant to use and I stopped using it. A lot of people complained but they didn't deal with it very well, and directed you to hope for the best by scrubbing it with orange oil products. I hope they sorted this out because otherwise Push 2 was amazing and this looks like a very nice set of improvements.

its fixed

I'm a hobbyist music "producer" ; an Ableton user for short, and also a programmer.

I cannot express how happy i'm to finally be able to let go of OSX & Windows forever.

This is what i'm realizing writing these lines.

I'm so happy right now.

I don't think standalone push is made to write music in standalone mode. The way I see it you import your live project to it with the idea to carry only the push in the stage without having to hook it up to a laptop.

Yes, it seems that a copy of Ableton Live running on a desktop is how you access the files on the Push 3 standalone via Wi-Fi. It appears like a folder in the browser.

Get an iPad. You can do all this and a ton more.

Though I own an iPad and am waiting excited for logic - I will say that producers would prefer to have some kind of hardware to go with their software, so the push 3 isn’t really a competitor to the iPad it’s an accessory

You could get a Novation Launchpad and an M1 / M2 iPad pro for less than this, have a tactile control surface, be able to use AUv3 plugins and instruments, and not be restricted on what host you use - this apparently won't even let you use VSTs.

Which app would you suggest ?

Well, Logic Pro is coming out on it later today, but apart from that, it massively depends on what you want to use it for and how you want to use it.

am i the only one that wondered why the videos on top didn't make any sound ?

It's Ableton; you have to buy the AdSound DLC Pack

I understand why it's expensive, but as a hobbyist who'd want this for some fun at home, I do wish there were a cheaper standalone device without some of the fancy things like MPE and a battery.

As a hobbyist you can hook up your existing laptop to one of the Novation launchpad models (price ranging from 110€ to 350€) which come with an Ableton Live Lite license.

If you want something standalone, well as said in a previous comment, the Novation Circuit or any of the other grooveboxes in the market can offer interesting workflows.

There is a lot of groove boxes on the market and seems they're getting more and more siblings, which is nice to see!

As a entry-device, Circuit Tracks is nice, immediate and not hard to learn to get your feet wet. It's also way cheaper than Push 3 but obviously a bit more limited.

Otherwise, there is a bunch of different devices at different price points, here is a one list sorted by "popularity": https://www.thomann.de/intl/groove_boxes.html

I agree with you on the Circuit - I haven't owned one but I learned enough to teach someone else the basics (on an original, not the Tracks) and it's very well thought out.

I had a (current model) Electribe and it was a bit frustrating, lots of features are technically there but too fiddly/time-consuming to use.

The OP-Z is not in the Thomann list, but I find that to be excellent - and not expensive compared to the OP-1. A rare example of an experts-only UI, it needs to be learned properly in order to do anything really, but once you know how to do it it's nice.

If Behringer ever releases their "HiroTribe" thing that might be a very compelling option on the budget end of the spectrum.

There is also Note (https://www.ableton.com/en/note/), if you have an iOS device.

Well the Push 2 has been around €400 used, and it's still good. Probably dropping in price now too.

You want an MPC One.

Cool stuff! I used Push 2 for a long time and I really enjoyed the workflow with it. I decided to sell it since most of my music work shifted to using Logic so didn't have much use for it anymore. Until quite recently, I had this scratching itch to rebuy Push 2 and start playing around with it, just to notice that it's sold out everywhere. I had a feeling that they will release Push 3 quite soon, so great to see it out finally. Maybe I need to start using Ableton again!

Very cool but surely it can't be long before AI can generate top quality music?

Of course people will still keep creating, and I'm sure there will be an 'organic' no-AI movement, but the exciting music tech of the next 10 years is going to be in that space in between the two...

(Ableton user since version 4)

You're missing the appeal of self-expression entirely.

"Why learn to play an instrument when you can just buy a CD?"

Kinda cheating to play an instrument you didn't make yourself. I think you're missing the appeal of self expression... /s

Am I? How?

As with text, the current form of AI (generative AI) will be very good at creating music that sounds good, not good music.

I agree, but one lesson I've learned from fifty years of music obsession is that people mostly don't like good music.

Ok fair, but most of the work of music creation is in making it sound good. I suspect the right combination of generative AI plus a little human guidance at the conceptual level should result in music that is good, with minimal effort. And to think I wasted all those years improving my piano ;-)

Personally I'd rather have a linnstrument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDTikW1BFt8 instead of something mixes a DAW with a controller. Logic running on an Ipad would be more powerful.

Add this to the list of cool stuff (with making music) one day I want to get into.

Man are they great at PR, I've seen this product all over the place today

Video about the user replaceable parts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZT0PyM1gC8

https://www.ableton.com/en/push/upgrading-push/

Great to see an upgrade kit. Interestingly "Each Upgrade Kit contains a processor, hard drive, battery, heatsink and all the tools you need for assembly."

For someone without experience with synth instruments: what can this thing do what an iPad could not also do?

Nothing except user experience.

The Push lets you turn physical knobs to adjust sound parameters, and the pressure sensitive pads let you play drums / piano / whatever softly to loudly. The external sound interface is very low latency so playing a guitar along with sequenced music feels natural and records in time. And of course it’s more durable for live performances.

But technically, with the right software, you could produce the same music on an iPad. There are step sequencers and Ableton controllers in the App Store. They’re just much less satisfying / expressive / empowering to use.

It has buttons you can push! Seriously, for an instrument, the feel of the buttons is kind of a big deal.

This is meant for live "playing" as well as recording, so the feel of the buttons rather than a touch screen is important.

You should check out videos of people using the original push as a live instrument - it can take serious talent.

It's a highly optimized and specialized user interface for music production and live performance. It's tactile, the pads are pressure sensitive, and it comes with a high-quality audio interface for other studio gear. It's probably sturdier than an iPad, and it's user repairable.

Didn't pressure sensitive touch get removed from iDevices? Velocity sensing is a big deal with percussion pads.

It can upgrade or replace CPU, RAM, SSD and battery.

It has physical controls to let you develop muscle memory

No arrangement view? deal breaker. Hopefully they add in the future.

100% agree. Also I think no follow conditions programming editing yet. Both I guess could be added.

you could just get a groovebox

had to jump on a buy it, been waiting for the push 3 for a few years now

Sounds terrible in the video. If that is the best it can do... :(

A bit of a heavyhanded way to put it, but one of the strengths of Ableton in my experience has been how easily you could import third-party plugins to supplement the lackluster native tooling. If you can't bounce those plugins to the Push along with a project, that severely gimps the functionality.

it's a sequencer!

Well, no. It's a groove-box, it can produce sounds on it's own. Think Ableton Light (real Lite, not actual Lite) in a box.

Oh right!

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