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Comment by throwbadubadu | Hacker News Reader

Would that be surprising, or shouldn't that be the default assumption that they dream similar like us?

I would swear I have experienced bad dreams of my cat, with abrupt movements and mumbled sounds, and then when waking or woken up immediately relaxing or even coming cuddling for comfort, very similar as with my human partner. Also dreaming in general, not just nightmares, is well observable sometimes.

I believe I have read similar stories of other's with cats&dogs, too?

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We're all mammals, so that's less surprising. But octopi having dreams would imply convergent evolution, I think. It seems they may have evolved higher intelligence convergently - which isn't too crazy given the obvious utility of intelligence - but I wonder what it is about dreams in particular that would make them independently appear in different branches.

(Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams.)

Birds show evidence of REM sleep and some studies suggest they're dreaming.

Birds are immensely closer to use than octopods though. Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes.

Birds are not mammals but we are still both descended from vertebrates with complex brains, at least.

>Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes.

Does it matter though? In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently. The same way eyes would work and connect to their brains/nervous system more or less similarly.

Makes sense to expect design of later developed organs to match their function, despite the initial point of ancestoral divergence, is my point.

So similar designs for the development of function X that work, would be arrived at by many (most? all?) independent evolution processes.

> In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That would imply some similar brain development, even if it was being done independently

It would be profound if two independently-evolved intelligences developed a need to dream.

Why would it be any more profound than any other common needs or functionality of two independently-evolved intelligences? Isn't this assumption begging the question?

Only if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function, a kind of garbage collection from the information acquired during the day for example...

> if we a priori consider dreaming something very unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of intelligent function

That’s the point. With N ~ 2, we have substance to believing it’s essential versus a fluke.

> We're all mammals ... But octopi

Ah, good point, got it thanks! Now I need some literature about how our brains and nervous systems are different :)

> Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had something like proto-dreams.

It's not clear to me at whether every animal with a nervous system dreams. It's something very hard to detect in most animals.

> octopi

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/octopodes

The best part is the rare pronunciation: /ɒkˈtɒpədiːz/

Definitely, I’ve seen both a dog and a pet rabbit dream, dozens of times. It’s pretty obvious, sometimes you can even tell what’s happening in the dream if you know your pet well. You can tell if they’re eating, running, playing or fighting. My rabbit would often have a nightmare and suddenly, violently wake up and start thumping her feet. What’s interesting is that she’d never met a real threat in her life.

Definitely should be default

is that cat captive and in an apartment? (not able to wander outside occasionally)

Not the original commenter, but I have indoor cats in my apartment who can only go out on to the balcony. They have very animated dreams sometimes. They'll make whimpering sounds that are like muffles versions of the yowls they make when agitated and/or playing. Their feet will kick as of they're playing with a toy, and sometimes they will suddenly awake. Cat 3/3 in particular will awake "confused" and make questioning meows at me and my partner, before running to one of us as if to say "the heck was that?!".

It's interesting. Is it dreams? If so, are they dreams unsettling enough that they look to us for reassurance/comfort, or are we just anthropomorphising?

imo "pets" shouldn't even exist, same with zoos and similar, we should just try to look at wild animals outside, learn to approach and communicate with them. In captivity we can have plants, that's fine

Cats pretty much domesticated themselves for the mutual benefit of both species.

There are "captive" pets living in cages or other enclosures that might be a bit more dicey, but cats and dogs are probably a pretty poor example to get upset about.

an apartment or small garden for dogs or cats who usually cover at least 10km daily is captivity

another point is also their environmental footprint (20% of meat and fish production, many services and indirect pollution, impact on birds, lezards, etc..)

20% seems very high. I also thought their food was a byproduct of the meat industry, maybe that's the reason? It's 20% that no one else would eat anyway?

(I'm being pedantic but that'd suit my narrative, I'm mostly vegan and I'm easily annoyed by people with pets)

sure but it's still driving the production and pollution up (processing, packaging, transport) and many pet owners also give them their own food

I have the privilege of living with two young indoor cats.

One of them found me when I was walking in a nearby semi-rural neighborhood. He was about five weeks old, sitting on a fence, scared and hungry, mewing for help.

It was around dusk, the time of day when the crows and ravens and owls and other predators start looking for tasty little snacks like him.

I brought him home, gave him a bath and got the fleas off him, then took him to the vet where they gave him medication for his ear mites and worms.

The other was rescued from a similar situation by someone who brought her to Pets In Need, our local no-kill shelter, where I adopted her.

They are very happy here. They have good friends (each other and me) to play with and sleep with, tasty food that they don't have to fight to the death, and no risk of being swept up by a hungry bird.

One time as I was walking in the door, a raven started making a loud ruckus outside. Both kitties had a panicked look. They remember what their life was like as wild animals. When they saw me they felt safe and happy again.

> They are very happy here

this is a projection of your feelings

It's a bit disturbing how pets became sort of toys and fashion objects

Let alone, there are many environmental issues (20% of global meat/fish, all services linked to them), a pet owner is rarely using a bicyle, but more a car etc..

For me it's a bit like a beautiful flower outside, should I cut it to bring it home with me? or should I just observe it there and leave it for others durably, for insects mostly?

A cat is a domesticated animal and it's obvious that they prefer living in a safe environment, or at least coming home to one, and bonding with their care providers (aka "family").

you forgot the most important point: food, that's why pets stay or regularly come back at that home (after smashing some poor wild creature for fun, it doesn't taste as good as their food made of 20% of worldwide meat&fish, their calories intake is about 20% of human, so that's billions of tons every year, shipping, pollution - pets CO2eq is around 2% of total emissions, concrete is 7%, personal cars are 20%, that give an idea of the importance)

No i didn't, that's part of providing a safe environment. Feeding creatures food isn't manipulation, it's providing for their basic needs. If my parents had stopped feeding me, I would have left the house too!

Every grown up animal can feed himself just fine, since forever, and also without your car, a supermarket and food shops, I wonder how long you can do it, animals know if you let them live in their natural environment

And they know that it's much easier and safer to have it provided, rather than have to hunt for it.

It depends, hens and birds in a field will prefer the tasty bugs & insects over the cultivated plants, many animals are happy with what they find themselves. A spider or lizard would also make a great pet, just like a plant

Choosing dogs or cats as pets is probably the worst choices in terms of sustainability

The total weight of pet dogs is higher than all other wild mammals, this is just shocking https://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/environment/weight-respons..., not even talking about livestocks which are 10 times higher mass than wild animals, and serve for 20% to pets food. The amount and type of pets is pure destruction and nonsense

Obviously we're talking about cats and dogs here. Spiders and lizards don't bond with humans so they would not make for the same kind of pet. Your fact diarreah is a little bizarre. I think we're all aware of the horrors of the modern industrial world.

I am sad that you have never had the experience of falling in love with a cat, nor having a cat fall in love with you.

I hope that one day this will happen. It will transform your life.

I like cats, but as a normal animal, wandering around like I do too actually, a silent and mutual respect, I can touch him if he wants, or just let him smell me, but surely not going to harass him, or worse imprison him

The love you're talking about is based on food, stop feeding him and open an exit, and see for how long he'll stay.

That's a bit like saying a wife is loving me, but I have to buy her lots of things continually, this kind of love would suck no?

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