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Comment by Jolter | Hacker News Reader

Why should motorcycles have a discount? How big should it be in your opinion, and why?

Not OP but: mcycles don't contribute as much to congestion given their smaller size and maneuverability. Also they get about 50mpg.

Motorcycles should be charged according to the decibel volume of their engine.

I’m extraordinarily noise sensitive and I find this appealing for emotional reasons. But I don’t think it’s good policy nonetheless. IME motorcycle drivers are generally among the most respectful about the noise they make, relative to all drivers of all vehicle types. They scoot through and move on.

I’d definitely like to charge drivers for their relative noise impact, but I’d start with the recreational sports car drivers and work my way up to industrial vehicle operators who don’t seem to give any fucks, before I even bat an eye at anyone on two wheels.

In NYC specifically, by far the loudest vehicles are dirt bikes — people ride them through streets with absolutely no regard for safety or pedestrians, running reds and honking and revving their engines. I think what you have said is generally true in other US cities I’ve been to though.

I can definitely acknowledge this varies by location! I’ve been in Seattle for 20 years, and only in the last year or so have I come to terms with the completely superfluous sports car noise as a normal thing here, but it was everyday life in Virginia when I lived there the 20 years prior.

> IME motorcycle drivers are generally among the most respectful about the noise they make, relative to all drivers of all vehicle types.

I don't think we live in similar countries. In the US an astonishing percentage of motorcycles are illegally modified to be louder. In NYC there are four loud vehicles, the Lamborghini Aventador, Nissan GTR, the Dodge Challenger Hellcat, and motorcycles. Of these only GTRs behave more obnoxiously than motorcycles (though Hellcat drivers are in close competition). In NYC they like to coast down the street in groups revving their engines, they especially seem to love triggering car alarms.

On the other hand in Asia I've never seen this behavior from motorcycles.

That’s lower mileage than the car I bought 25 years ago, and it made far less noise pollution.

For motorcycles, London gives 100% off the congestion charge. The NY thruway is half off but PANYNJ tolls are just $1 off.

Less wear on the roads (due to dramatically lower weight). Less space taken up, more efficient in urban scenarios. Tolls, especially bridge tolls, should scale with the weight of the vehicle.

I think the size of the vehicle is more important because the main issue is the congestion

Motorcycles don't cause congestion. Motorcycles can travel through congestion when permitted to lanesplit.

They’re not as bad as cars but they still take up a fair amount of space and pollute (noise, fumes) heavily. A modest discount seems appropriate but they definitely should still cost more than transit.

When moving, they take up the space of about 2 bicycles riding safely. When parked, about 4 bicycles.

It's a congestion tax not a fumes tax.

I'd be keen to charge vehicles based on noise pollution, but I'm not sure how feasible it is. Does anyone know if it's ever been trialed anywhere?

Seems like it would be easy enough - you register your car, each model has an average and max decibel rating. Your congestion charge includes a factor for that - Harley's pay a bigger markup and EVs pay next to nothing for that particular thing.

It’s too easy to modify the exhaust on a motorcycle, so I don’t think this would be practical. Local laws here are very strict about noise levels, and vehicles are inspected regularly, yet still there are a lot of drivers with modified machines that can wake up the dead when revved.

They do not pollute heavily fume-wise, and most motorcycles other than Harleys or sport bikes with racing exhausts with the dB component removed are not that loud. I get 60 mpg and the engine is efficient. A car gets half or less that mpg, so is 2 to 3X more polluting than a motorcycle when you have 1-to-1 driver/passenger comparison. 2 people on a moto is even better than a car.

Most motorbikes I’ve been near have had significantly more smelly exhaust than a modern car. I don’t think their catalytic converters are as efficient, or maybe they’ve been broken?

Anyway, I don’t think the fees aim to improve pollution, just congestion.

Motos emit less CO2, but more NO, however, most motos are now adopting the EU emissions standards with Euro 5 for motos, so I think that gap is not as bad as when Myth Busters did their episode on it.

Motos are certainly less congestive especially with most cars being single driver and no passengers going into NYC.

If you do the math on the CO2, the emissions per passenger mile is significantly worse for a motorbike than for subway or bus -- regardless of the power source for the train or bus.

But, again, I don't think this proposed fee/tax is aiming at pollution or carbon emissions per se, more at the congestion itself.

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