Comment by gigatexal | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gigatexal | Hacker News Reader

Me thinks similar things are going to happen (if they're not already) to Portland. I grew up there and then worked on SW 5th Ave from 2013 to 2018 and loved it. Since then I've been in Germany working. I went back last year to see family and my old "stomping grounds" near my old office and other places that I'd love to go eat at and such were overrun with folks with substance abuse issues, homelessness, etc., and many of the food carts and businesses/restaurants that I used to get fat at (I put on so much weight eating while going into the office it was hilarious) have closed and moved into suburbs or to other locations.

SW 5th and surrounding areas near the waterfront used to be the "nice" parts of town with very little open drug use, homeless camps, etc. (Don't get it twisted, I am 100% for more taxes, charity, efforts to help people get housed, get off drugs, whatever they need) But since returning the volume of people who need help is clearly turning the city into a place where businesses are reticent to invest in.

It's going to be interesting with the new ordinance to outlaw camping from dawn to sundown. If you camp during those hours, you face jail time. The theory is probably that this will separate hard core drug users from homeless people who aren't willing to go into a shelter. That'll be an interesting experiment.

A cruel experiment that will neither relieve suffering nor address its cause. America is insane.

When it comes to substance abuse, there is literally nothing a third party can legally do. Short of arresting you for committing a crime, or commiting you as a self harm risk (a worse experience than jail) your rights under the US constitution prevent you from being forced to do pretty much anything.

Cruel yes. Better in the long run? Maybe.

People need support. This support requires funding. This funding comes from taxes, which requires business operations and such. Business operations are impacted by perceptions of safety and cleanliness, which also requires funding and scales with the number of people who need support.

Your second paragraph makes sense, but only to the extent that one views people needing support as a local issue. This is one of the ways we (as a U.S. resident) avoid taking responsibility: This problem is some other locality's responsibility.

I'm no expert on US politics/taxes, but isn't the bay area already home to some of the richest companies on the planet? Mostly companies whose income comes from all over the globe, and hence is almost entirely independent of the state of San Francisco's streets?

And people on HN make it sound like the Bay Area is full of workers making several hundred of thousand of dollars a year, buying houses worth several million dollars, so income tax and property tax revenue should be off the charts too.

Isn't the bay area be absolutely swimming in tax revenue already?

SF's problems do not stem from lack of money. The City's budget went from $6B in 2008 to $13B today. That's more than entire countries (SF would by #80 in the UN after Nigeria and before Sri Lanka). They could afford to buy every homeless man, woman and child (7,000 total) a $1M condo with just one year's worth of the tech windfall. By my calculations, the city bureaucracy captured at least 40% of that in salaries and benefits, and I'm sure the welfare-industrial complex took its cut as well, while failing the people it ostensibly serves.

If SF raises additional taxes, the few companies left will simply decamp to other places in the Bay Area like San Jose. The crime and quality of life issues are already pushing them to do so. They only set up shop in SF after 2000 because that was the only way to attract talent from Berkeley or SF who were not willing to commute to the South Bay, but in the new job market environment that is no longer an issue.

America is insane? You might want to look at what cities in Europe do for their honelesss.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/they-have-homelessness-in-europ...

Leaving addicts and the mentally ill to rot on the streets is cruel and insane.

How is outlawing camping during the day in the city "cruel and insane"?

They're not outlawing camping in a vacuum, they are outlawing an act of desperation which their own policies are driving people to. America is insane.

> they are outlawing an act of desperation which their own policies are driving people to. America is insane.

So you mean, they should be allowed to keep their stuff (e.g. lots of stolen bikes) strung out in the middle of a park during a day, and they shouldn't have to move into shelters because they can't deal with their drug habits?

If this were Switzerland (or specifically, Lausanne where I used to live), the Swiss police would really not take any of that crud. They would apply lots of tough love, swiss style, before it got to that point.

Portland is literally filled with bleeding heart liberals in comparison (and actually is, people are just losing patience).

Wow daddy I'm impressed, use your strength on me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...

It's this. America does not invest in its social problems.

It actually does, it just can't decide if it wants to be authoritarian or permissive in dealing with its social problems, so even though we throw a lot of money and resources at these problems, they aren't very effective. What's more is that every city/state/locality has its own strategy, and they are all different.

Are they building more jails?

It's only a feeling, and might be confirmation bias (I moved abroad as well) but it feels like more people I know are leaving the US entirely. Certainly more of my peer group than my parents' generation.

The US still has a positive net migration rate with pretty much every other country, including all major EU member states.

That’s going to be a lot poor people moving from poor countries. But to OP’s point, there are a lot of middle-upper class, especially remote workers that are looking to get the heck out of the US. I am one of them. When sex changes for children is a topic of national debate, or my kids are being taught that your skin color makes you racist — it’s time to go.

No joke much of the US business exceptionalism is from immigration. For whatever reason many a foreign national wants to go to the US to take part in that 50-cent dream of get[ting] rich or d[ying] trying.

Absolutely, which is part of why I mention my peer group. But if you're a mid-30's programmer with a family (or planning to start one) the EU can be tempting, if you can work around the large salary gap.

A 150k EUR salary can be had easily in Europe but that’s true you’ll not find 500k to 1M salaries here like you will stateside.

To be fair a 150k EUR salary (about where I am as it turns out) can be had in Europe but I don't think it's done "easily" for most people, at least compared to major US cities.

But I literally don't care. I already have a paid off house, and I just don't need anything. My big goal in life is to have a 3 bed flat or townhouse where my kids can run out the door and ride their bikes to their friends' houses (and school, and the cinema, etc.) and I'm not worried about them. I don't want a fancy car (or any car, actually), gadgets, etc.

I kinda wanted to FIRE at one point but that was only because I hated what I was doing. Finding work from climatebase.org or similar helps a lot with that. I would LOVE to work for humankind.city, for instance.

I figured easily for the staff level and above engineer making 3-4x that amount and wanting to move to Europe. For the rest of us something close to 100k is easily doable.

I agree. I miss a lot of home (family, taco bell, friends, some freedoms) but I really do enjoy the healthcare, the lack of anxiety from gun violence, the stable government, and the lack of stress.

I am trying to get folks I know to move out of the US, too!

Hah! Admittedly good taco shops and In-N-Out are something I miss about the bay, along with many other wonderful things. I wouldn't mind at least _some_ of that can-do spirit and willingness to take risks, either, cheesy as it sounds.

I bring up US working holiday visa arrangements (with Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, and South Korea), the Dutch American Friendship Treaty (surprisingly straightforward way to live in the Netherlands if you can employ yourself), recent loosening of German immigration rules, and oddball options like the French Foreign Legion or living in Svalbard far too often in casual conversation.

I have had authentic Tacos and I do love them and real Mexican food ... but there's something visceral, nostalgic, about Taco Bell. It was the first meal I can remember we ever had growing up that wasn't cooked at home (we never ate out, we always had home cooked food and then one day mom was just tired and we hit up the local TacoBell and I was hooked ever since). And then the only happy memory with my Dad was at a Taco Bell with him throwing way too many hot sauce packets on the hard shelled tacos (he was East Indian so chewing on habeneros at the store and picking the hotter ones was a normal thing so...), shortly after this random experience, he passed away suddenly while on a business trip.

Anyway, I miss that greasy, bastardization of the taco...

Immigration and liberal laws unto it will save nations I think. Countries going forward will need skilled labor more than ever as birth rates fall.

Germany has been good to me, Berlin especially, but if I were to do it all over again, I'd try my hardest to get placed at a company in Amsterdam. What an amazing place that place is.

Perhaps you have a Dutch vacation coming soon! https://tacobell.nl/en/

I have similar fond memories of Taco Bell. The 59, 79, 99 cent menu sustained me as a teenager.

As it turns out I am forming a BV and working on moving to Utrecht in the next few months. Ireland was good to me as well, but has not been a great place to raise kids.

Is a BV like an LLC or something? If you’re starting a company then all the best! I hope it works out!

Also had no idea about this, thank you!

/me google's "Dutch American Friendship Treaty"...

Curious where you moved to?

Does entirely mean:

Renouncing US citizenship?

?Moving out of the US with children

Buying a home and declaring ?residency outside the US

These to me are what define leaving entirely.

Taking a gap year, for example, does not count.

Well I don't think you determine what "counts" but in my mind it means moving abroad indefinitely.

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