Hacker News Reader

Comment by bambax | Hacker News Reader

> CTO I've worked with said that developers are like "machines working in a factory" that they shouldn't think above their level

Yes, I'm currently working for such a client (not as a dev though) and it's amazing how absolutely convinced even so-called "technical" people think developers are like interchangeable factory workers (which are themselves also probably a myth).

Apparently, the inability to code is some badge of honor, and proof that one is a "thinker"(?!?).

This view seems to be more pervasive in Europe than in the US... Maybe it's an artifact of social classes / hierarchical societies, and more egalitarian societies have an edge to overcome those prejudices.

I'm not sure. I don't really know.

What I know is that it's terrible.

View on HN

I also agree that this attitude is much more common in Europe than the US. Founders and CTOs constantly blowing their feet off because they can't seem to give technical people any power, and it doesn't seem to be changing any time soon. I think you would need a big FAANG-like talent feeder to convince them otherwise

It's especially prevalent in France (where you seem to also come from). I often jest that here engineers are just blue-collar workers with a masters degree. And it's not uncommon to hear engineers refer to themselves as ingésclave ("engineslave").

This being said, companies that really do provide added value and grow are usually the ones valuing their engineering staff highly.

As for myself, I outright refuse to work with traditionally structured French companies.

Yes I'm French and live and work in France, but in the UK or Germany it seems to work the same way, with extremely low wages for software developers compared to managers (except, in some cases, in the startup sphere).

German here. Yes, it's pretty much how you described it. In my previous company they hired a new CTO. He doesn't like anyone who is smarter than him and/or who doesn't just follow orders. He quickly started hiring people who he could control, like devs from Iran who were dependent on their work visa, or just "friends" of whom he knew that they always agree with him.

Less than a year after this guy started, a lot of the best people in the company have left the company. I still have several good contacts there and it is really bad. The company had good revenues and a lot of potential, but they are really struggling right now and they already had to let a lot of people go that they actually needed. There is one very good developer left who basically built most of the company's software and who is still performing like crazy because he really identifies with the company and he tries to keep it alive, even though it is literally destroying his health and family. Guess what, the CTO wants to get rid of him because he "doesn't like his attitude". He tried to force the previous Head Of Software Development to get rid of this guy until he quit himself, now he is trying to get the new Head of (one of the Iranian guys) to find a way to get rid of him. It is not easy to fire someone in Germany btw. You either need a good reason (like validated documentation that they violated the terms of their contract) or get the person to quit themselves. The Head Of knows that this guy leaving would be the worst thing to happen to this company, so he is basically just stalling.

Of course the CTO gets more than triple the money of the best paid developer, plus bonuses like a car that's worth ~140k.

view seems to be more pervasive in Europe than in the US

Which is quite weird, since at every Not Software engineering company I've interacted with in Europe (mostly the nordic and germanic countries to be fair), the majority of the top management are experienced senior engineers who have worked their way up from 'the floor' as it where.

To clarify : The US is more egalitarian and hierarchical ?

I think it’s more about attitudes to specialization and credentialism. People with tech degrees are supposed to do tech. People with business degrees are supposed to do business. A common scenario when a self-taught executive-level manager moves from an anglo country to a germanic one is that employers ask “where is your business degree?”. And this works both ways. Germanic tech employees tend to not value sales/business, and view the money people as a necessary evil that have no idea what they’re doing. This is of course a self-reinforcing cycle. And there’s nothing bad about specialization, really, but interdisciplinary people have their place as well. As for credentialism, I think it’s slightly better than its reputation on this site, but it shouldn’t be applied too strictly.

Ah ok. That make more sense. I find the US distribution of wealth vastly more inégal than Europe but that was not your point, sorry.

Absolutely, a diploma is needed and self starters are view with skepticism.

France is extreme with that for instance. Banks will lend you money to starts a specific business only if you have a related diploma ( hair dresser, butcher, boulanger … )

I mean; they won’t flat out refuse if you dont. But passing thought those trade schools will open doors.

I was just talking it with a friend very qualified in education in both the US and France.

He’s a certify teacher with experience in both countries.

He’s starting a business of teaching music exclusively. He has like 8 years of relevant experiences doing that.

France is still asking him to do a 2 years training if he want to access the government contracts of public schools.

And that’s in a context of teacher scarcity.

Silver lining, the training will cost like $1000/year but that borderline insulting to have him do that and I find the 2 years timeline insane.

So, yeah, long story short crendentism indeed.

I think it was coming from a good place originally. But at this point it’s silly.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com