Thinking different. - A look into the mental illness of a hacker
qaa.ath.cx
qaa.ath.cx
People generally cannot be helped unless they want to be. Sharing his personal information in some misguided attempt to "help" is not likely to turn out well. And unfortunately, as a practical matter, no community should be expected to tolerate a stream of senseless diatribes just because of the person writing them.
To some extent, everyone is responsible for their own well-being. Very few people completely lack any self-awareness; if you know you have a health problem, whether mental or otherwise, it is your responsibility to seek help. It's a responsibility you owe yourself, your family and friends, and society.
Other than that, we shouldn't be discussing people like this.
* I didn't post the article here and I wrote it in about 70 minutes; I had no intention of opening up this discussion in HN.
* All the information is very public, most of it authored by the gentleman in promotional materials.
* The article is about accepting and awareness. There's been much harsher words said about the individual and his project.
* The article is mostly in praise of his accomplishments.
* I have known very similar people and so this hit me on a personal level.
* As an article there's some general rules that yield a good read. I guess I could have been non-specific, or asked for consent of the family, I didn't know this was going to gain so much traction.
Edit: I'm re-editing it now. (I should be in bed, ug tired)
03:45 I think it is a better job now ... hopefully you find it more acceptable; I'm starting to become a bit incoherent myself and need to catch a wink.
04:25 Just finished another round of editing. I do really hope everything is better. (4:50 still going ... )
It is simply not true that the article is "mostly in praise of his accomplishments," either. There is a brief description of LoseThos at the start and a vacuous upbeat sentence about workflows and usability near the end. In the middle sits an illustrated description of Mr. Davis's antics and a rather uninformative discussion about how mentally ill people are mentally ill. You cap it off with a quote from the DSM describing behavior similar to his, and reflect that you can "understand and appreciate" someone's illness now that you have blurb, even one which says nothing more than "yeah, schizos do that sometimes."
The article, aside from rubbernecking at a mentally ill man, has almost no actual content. It seems you were more interested in telling a "tortured genius" story. You insinuate that mental illness would be some sort of creative advantage if only society were more accommodating, that his mental illness and his writing an operating system are somehow two sides of the same coin.
He's been unemployed and stuck at home for 7 years. I don't think it so notable that a programmer in that situation might do some programming. LoseThos is neat, but let's be level headed. Writing a basic kernel (and this one doesn't even have virtual memory or preemptive multitasking) and a basic compiler are both common projects for CS undergrads. To produce this over 7 years isn't some unfathomable feat, though I can't imagine being sick and medicated made it any easier. I absolutely don't mean to be critical of him, and the treatment he received on Something Awful was really unappetizing. But it does seem that you're building his accomplishments up a little. And it seems that you're doing it because you want to write a moving story and parade his personal tragedy through the streets like some nerd Oprah.
This post is too long already, but I also want to say your blaming the community's lack of acceptance for the progression of diseases is ridiculous and trivializes mental illness. Smiling and nodding at his PRNG won't make him better. Finally, your stamping the article with a little self-aggrandizing blurb about yourself and a link to your github account leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Did you notice the part where he also runs goofy JIT/linking, or has annotated source code with pictures and compiler for same, and that the virtual memory/preemptive multitasking was explicitly omitted? Or several other nifty/quirky features of the OS? (http://www.losethos.com/LTHtml/Doc/Features.html)
He's done work that any of us should respect as fellow programmers, crazy or not.
Also, his source comments are...colorful in some cases. :)
(OTOH, he's fairly public already, and I'm sure he's been called insane before.)
He is a public figure already, as you say so yourself, regardless of whether we can hold him responsible of it. If anything, this piece served to humanize him, and spreading knowledge of his condition may, at least, serve to secure better treatment for him from his peers.
Alright, I think most of the finger-pointing is gone. Hopefully it's better ... I need to get to bed.
Naming the person is probably not such a good idea. There's a reason why films insert those disclaimers that characters do not reflect a real person.
I also removed all references to his name except for the initial one where I cite him as the author of the software. I've also made more of the paragraphs general, trying to remove him as the focus of the article, and instead just as a topic.
I think publishing an article like this is not only distasteful, I for one find it deeply disturbing. We all have a right to dignity.
You guess you could have been non-specific or asked for consent of the family? You bet.
Even if you claim you only tried to help, say that all the information is available publicly or even make efforts to edit it after publishing, discussing a fellow human being's mental condition this way is just morally wrong.
Clearly you've had the good luck to never have had to deal with any mental health problem ever. The problem with mental health problems is that when your mind isn't functioning properly, how can you be expected to diagnosis yourself and seek treatment? It's like expecting a broken robot to repair itself. For example, when depression robs you of all motivation and the very will to live, how can you be expected to recognize the symptoms and go out there and seek help?
I, for one, didn't realise I'd become depressed. It took my partner and my best friend to take me to get diagnosed and treated.
On reflection, it's frightening to think I didn't realise.
But for members of community to point their finger saying "this guy has this, can't you tell?" is brutal. Just brutal. If you really care about a person's health (especially when it's psychological) you don't do this. Instead, you try to come in contact with him or family or at worst with some professional around his town and treat him with the dignity an ill human deserves to be treated. This feels like we're all discussing about him in the town square and when he comes by we'll just give him the stare while he walks around. How's that helpful?
Cruel? It's sick. Mo matter how much "socially acceptable" it is, it doesn't make it less wrong.
However, the way a person actually relates to their own experiences while classed as mentally ill is a personal thing. Lack of understanding is probably the biggest barrier - and well meaning sympathy isn't always going to have a positive effect on someone's well-being. It might actual just compound the problem.
I think there's an element of the freak-show here, because the guy who's the subject of the article is being used as 'exhibit a' in a discussion of what can manifest from mental illness. On the flip side - mental illness does seem to be an area of life that's rarely discussed openly.
Rather than stand by and look at the wreckage - it's probably more constructive to think about what can be done to help tackle mental health issues more generally. http://www.mind.org.uk/ is a UK-based charity who are doing good things in this area.
But there are a few people who need help, but just don't think that they need help. It's judgemental and unhelpful to suggest that this small minority is somehow selfish or irresponsible for not seeking help.
I've read a fair share of psychiatric books and they all have this "rule".
The OP should at the very least edit out the name of the person and remove references to his work.
I've also wondered about this. It's OK to use the silencing for real spammers, but for people that are considered annoying/offtopic for other reasons I think it's better to confront them directly. At least let them know that they were banned and why. It'd be the human thing to do.
If you're interested, many mentally ill people are very eager to communicate, and I'm sure you can find them on the web.
But some of the time you are banned for the actual words in your post. This account was hell banned for a while because I used the name of a brand of shoes in a post (on an article about an IP suit around said shoes.) A simple anti-spam filter.
I also suspect this gentleman has been banned not for the lack of contribution - but for off topic screeds and offensive language.
Occasionally, people fall apart. I don't think they should be ostracized when they need help and friends the most. We should be more tolerant of ideas and people you may not like but who are still deserving of respect and recognition.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3617148
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3567016
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3430362
I feel bad for the guy, but that doesn't mean his behavior is acceptable.
These new medications did wonders, but in addition to being slow, I was a foreign person to myself. And I kinda didn't like some aspects of that guy. So, with the help of the doctor, I went off my medication and developed new coping techniques. It's been 8 years, I've had some bad days and some good, I've got some odd habits, but unless someone watches me for a period of time, they wouldn't even notice.
All this to say, mental illness is a real illness, it's almost always manageable, but without the cooperation of the ill, there is no fixing it. And at the same time, the well person may be completely foreign, making the experience even more traumatic. Someone in the thread asked if folks would hire someone who said they were ill in an interview, but were being treated. I see the question as would you hire someone with only one leg. If they can do the job and fit well with the team, of course I would.
"Need Start-Up Advice" A year and a half ago. Sad. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1782800
"Darwin Skeptics Believe Neaderthal Cannibals have High IQ" A revealing attempt at humor. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1366594
"New 64-bit Operating System released" From three years ago. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=491503
> Sorry to threadjack but... how does it work? It seems that, for some reason, my account is blacklisted too. Who decides that? On the basis of what? I'm honestly perplexed...
one part of it is that no one can directly reply to your comments.
looking at your submissions, i suspect you were banned for posting links to your own blog?
there must be less obnoxious ways for moderators to discourage that.
> looking at your submissions, i suspect you were
> banned for posting links to your own blog?
I suspect it's several of the comments made elsewhere that got down-voted into oblivion, and that triggered an automatic hellban.
> there must be less obnoxious ways for moderators
> to discourage that.
Solve the problem of trolls, without getting any false positives, and you'll potentially have a market winner.
From looking at his history, it seems to be this post which caused the ban: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3555622 No idea why - it's inflammatory, but hardly worth a ban.
Possibly that, plus the previous comments you made here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3467179 pissed the mods off enough to ban you.
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I've been thinking about the trajectory of knowledge lately and I've noticed that some of the really great mathematics work (e.g. Grigori Perelman) seems to come from outsiders, those who reject the establishment on some level.
Given the incredible depth and breadth of David's work work, I'm starting to believe that we are more likely to find a true solution to P =? NP in the notebook of someone like this than in a scholarly journal. There are not many of us, even here on HN, that have the willpower to pull off something like LoseThos.
> I've noticed that some of the really great mathematics
> work (e.g. Grigori Perelman) seems to come from
> outsiders,
In fact, I'd suggest the opposite of your proposal. Breakthroughs do require obsession, yes, and a certain awkwardness comes with the territory. True mental illness and grossly maladjusted behavior, however, generally stand in the way of attaining them (except, of course, for a handful and thus famous cases). Don't look further than Perelman's struggles.
I dont think drawing a comparison between Perelman(the guy who proved poincare conjecture) and Terry Davis is fair.
Although Davis is clearly talented, Perelman is one of the best minds of the century.
Also as far as I understand there is some good reasoning behind Perelman's rejection of the establishment and in fact it might even be contributing to his ability to solve problems no one else seems to be capable of solving.
"I can't say I'm outraged. Other people do worse. Of course, there are many mathematicians who are more or less honest. But almost all of them are conformists. They are more or less honest, but they tolerate those who are not honest." - Pereleman refering to the efforts of Yau to downplay Perelman's role in the proof of Poincare Conjecture.
"It was completely irrelevant for me,” he said. “Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other recognition is needed." - Perelman when asked about his rejection of the Fields Medal.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/08/28/060828fa_fact2?c...
Some cross the line and come back, some cross to never return. I have a friend who has been busy now for 2 decades+ working on a CAD system in 68000 assembly, which he believes is the next big thing. He's bulding it on an ancient Atari ST.
The world has long moved on in just about every sense of the word and yet he's solidly stuck in a past that is no longer alive except to him. Everybody around him has had plenty of talks to explain what's going on and he steadfastly refuses any and all input on the subject.
The interesting part is that even though he's unemployed he is working on his passion every day for the largest part of the day, he's building something that is absolutely incredible and he's having tons of fun doing it.
Makes you wonder if he's all that crazy.
'Losethos' is doing something similar, he is building something for which there apparently is no need. But that may be just our perception. Maybe the creative act is his way of showing the world what he can do.
There was a window of time... but the Finn brothers re-wrote the code in C++ for Windows/MacOS, then sold(?) product to Avid.
I hope he has people around him who are helping him, but I suspect he doesn't.
His whois lists him as living in Las Vegas. Does anyone live there who can at least check that he has someone taking care of him?
You can find more information about him and his location on the OS's website[2]:
> Terry A. Davis
> 8144 Sickle Lane
> Las Vegas, NV 89128
> (702)254-4223
But on the other hand this personal information was publicly published by the author - no one invaded his privacy to get this information - it's right on his website. (Not to mention whois which is archived by 3rd parties.)
Downvoters, it doesn't get much lower than this. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Unfortunately, it takes a somewhat mocking tone of the creator's mental illness, but it provides lots of screenshots.
e: LoseThos' creator posted in the thread, view filtered posts with this link: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=342...
I don't think there are very many (any?) other communities on the internet for which you must be a paid user to post.
His joy of experience in knowledge and production and problem solving is what hooked me on computers in the first place.
If you think he's crazy, you should go see Stallman talk.
There is a very fine line between eccentric and schizophrenic.
So the big deal here imo is that this man was able to do such an amazing work despite his condition.
I can't find the site anymore, but I remember a similar case of a guy that has a website with a lot of material dedicated to some kind of LabVIEW-Style graphical programming that will revolutionize the software industry. The other half of his website are Bible prophecies.
There are certainly healthy, productive, happy members of society that have deep religious convictions. So be it.
But when people think they have an active full discourse with God and God is literally conversing with them and is furthermore telling them to do things that actually yield no results (Do X and Y will happen, and then Y never does), things get difficult.
Balancing the liberty of a person with what needs to be done to effectively empower them is a difficult task.
How would you feel if Fred disclosed after interview, at the point where you offer him the job?
How would you feel if Fred disclosed after he started the job?
[1] Fred is a totally hypothetical person with, for example, a diagnosis of schizophrenia.
Arguably the world's greatest single intellectual body of work, the Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, was written by a guy locked up in his room alone.
If his work required significant ongoing interaction with the rest of the team though, I might be more hesitant to hire.
I take your wider point. Newton would have seemed very odd by today's standards.
I have spent quite some time reading miscellaneous forum threads by him and have found nothing that shocks me as profoundly "mentally ill". Sure, the guy sees some strange patterns in the noise, but don't we all? Most of us just have enough sense not to share them publicly, or enough existential fear to censor our own thinking.
If we take the lack of cognitive self-censorhip to be a criterion for establishing "insanity", then are we not guilty of the same intellectual laziness we point out when we discuss "thinking inside box"?
That is, if someone professes to one "insane" (== not generally accepted as "true", to the point of ridicule) idea, does that invalidate the rest of ideas they originated? What about two? How many "insane" ideas must one express to have the rest of one's ideas invalidated? Or must the ideas be considered independently of the source?
I found what could be losethos's pastebin: http://pastebin.com/68Rif0mv A few things there made me think.
"Or, perhaps, we are all missing something and he is just always speaking in code." (OP)
^I think you might be onto something there. Regardless of whether what's encoded "makes sense", the use of doublespeak is evident.
Do engage the substance of my inquiry, please. If it is "delusional" to invoke the Godhead as an explanation for running only certain monitor resolutions, is it not delusional to invoke same Godhead as an explanation for holding $moral_value or making $public_policy_decision?
Rhetorical, obviously. My point is - if no objective metric is invoked in determination of "insanity", does it not then become a "house rule" of sorts?
They're self-medicating with marijuana and alcohol and displaying increasingly erratic behaviour. At the same time I know their potential for genius but see their potential hampered by their problems.
Our wider social network has noticed it and are electing me to talk with my friend but I really don't know what I can say that'll help VS push them away.
If the conversation goes poorly, back off and try again later. While it is good to not have every person in your social group having this conversation, having more than one person have it is probably a good idea. You don't want the friend to get the feeling "everybody is against me" while at the same time, if it's just you, they can more easily ignore your input as "just you".
Finally, recognize that this might cost you a friend. But if you do care for that friend (which obviously you do), that is a risk worth taking for your friend's sake. Good luck.
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You can download 2004
http://web.archive.org/web/20040606212724/http://www.simstructure.hare.com/OS.htm
Funding? No, helplessly watched my 5 year window go by from FBI prison.
I had 10,000 firm downloads in the last 3 years. I only got 15 emails over 5 years, all FBI.
That's okay -- it's in God's court.
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"I was a National Merit Scholar with a 1440 SAT at Arizona State University. I have a bachelor's in Computer System Engineering from ASU, basically, embedded systems, and a master's in Electrical Engineering from ASU, control systems. I worked as a software, hardware and mechanical engineer at Ticketmaster from 1990-1996. I designed a 3 axis stepper-motor-driven milling machine 1996-1997 with a CAD/CAM package for a company I started called Home Automation and Robotic Equipment. I worked for a company named Xytec Corp. 1997-1999. We made FPGA-based image processing equipment for currency inspection, and I installed passwords on the machine in the Bank of England. I wrote SimStructure from 2000-2001 for H.A.R.E. I worked as head software/electrical engineer for a company called Graphic Technologies, 2001-2002, making replacement chips for toner printer cartridges so they could be refilled."
You are likely to find that relating to someone with this condition will be frustrating beyond your own ability to make sense of it or to have a positive effect in any way, or to maintain prolonged caring contact.
I don't agree that we shouldn't be discussing people like this, but that your expectations of what the outcome might be are likely to be thwarted. For a harrowing study that the investigator later realized was unethical, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Christs_of_Ypsilanti.
I have direct personal experience with this, as I lost a brother to this condition.
Is the OP suggesting this guy developed mental illness because others didn't appreciate his work?
I find it's very important to recognize what you're trying to achieve when you show your work to others. If you want honest feedback, be prepared for honesty. If you want to "show off" be prepared to be disappointed. Noone has any idea how hard you worked.. the exception would be others who have accomplished similar things to you have - which is why ASK HN posts are useful, people here for the most part appreciate what you've done, even if it's no use to them.
Btw, it is perfectly possible to be honest, without being cruel or a jerk.
i) Suggesting that someone might have a mental health problem is probably okay.
ii) Suggesting a specific mental health problem that a person may have, unless you're qualified, is probably not okay. (And if you are qualified there are ethical issues.)
iii) Mental health problems and mental illness are not "mental handicap". "Mental handicap" refers to learning disabilities. In the UK "Mental handicap" would be an odd phrasing.
Interesting questions: Should he have the choice to live with his illness? Or should he face coercion to have treatment? Does he have the choice, given that he may have an illness that affects choice?
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
In fact this sort of relativism can be harmful I think as it can justify people who are mentally ill thinking that nothing needs to be fixed, yet carry on harming themselves/others.
You really do have to be extreeeemely careful about this sort of thing, and the Feynman case is hardly comparable, unless there were some nonsensical outbursts from him that I don't know about.
On that subject - just because Feynman didn't think psychology was a proper science (and essentially it isn't), doesn't mean it isn't an incredibly important hack. All the people who have suffered from mental illness and received effective treatment are a testament to that.
Anyone in Vegas who can get in touch with him in meat reality?
I e-mailed him. I'm interested in installing and playing with this thing. I have an Athlon x64 box that's currently experiencing crash-boom bios issues, but if I get it running I want to throw this on a drive and see what happens!
It's not every day that I run into a NEW OS!!!
That's just the impression I have gotten though.
I know a few artists/painters who went insane (and few suicided), but in technical/science domain I don't think I know anyone such.
This is a discussion that must be had, but the way it is phrased is not ok.