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Comment by thenoblesunfish | Hacker News Reader

Let's consider this quote

"All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before."

Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes.

Because Tolstoy, and most essays about alcohol, don't even mention what I think is the point of alcohol. It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize, and socializing is very, very good for people. So good that I will risk it, even though alcohol is bad in many ways: bad for physical and mental health, risky for abuse, etc.

If you are anti alcohol, that is reasonable, but it seems no one will ever admit what it's really for.

This is important, because alcohol is unhealthy and if you want to discourage it, give people other low effort ways to connect.

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That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit.

Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods.

I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is.

As the child grows into an adult, and realizes the real nature of life and the world, baseline pain increases. And it's hard to be social when you're worried about things or down about things.

But alcohol is a cheap, readily available blunt instrument against this pain. No matter how bad you feel, if you down a litre of booze, that pain will definitely, and quickly, stop.

Live isnt very painful for me.

Still enjoy a beer a bit too much. When I'm super happy and then have a beer it just adds to it.

It also can help me relax if I'm working to much. One can argue it's not needed, but at times nice.

I'm pretty sure Tolstoy isn't talking about a weekly beer, but the Russian type of alcoholism of downing an entire bottle of vodka every five minutes.

See the wiki:

> According to a 2011 report by the World Health Organization, annual per capita consumption of alcohol in Russia was about 15.76 litres of pure alcohol, the fourth-highest volume in Europe.

> Alcoholism has been a problem throughout the country's history because drinking is a pervasive, socially acceptable behaviour in Russian society

A great point, and I assume this sort of thing might help understand how prohibition came to America in the early 20th century. I heard a world health report once that implied that Russian men die a lot younger than they would without alcohol.

Only the fourth highest!

I feel like if I lived in Russia I'd have no difficulty meeting that number

That was my impression when I travelled in Moscow. Every where I looked there was a kiosk selling beer and little bottles of vodka - along with some tasty cold cuts. It was pretty hard not to stop by and get one of these little bottles of vodka. (On a side note, alcoholism in Moscow was on a different level then what I experienced. Middle aged men and women struggling to "walk" on their hands and legs at 10 in the morning was quite the experience for me.... This was on one of the Muscovite neighborhoods, not in the touristy places like Kremlin, Arbat, Tverskaya, etc..)

I meant like that'd be my coping mechanism for living in such a place

> was about 15.76 litres of pure alcohol

I've done the maths on that and it comes out at 39.4 litres of 40% spirits a year, 750ml a week, or 108ml a day. In the UK that is basically two double spirit drinks.

Four UK units a day is above the recommended 14 per week and I'm sure isn't great for your health long term but most people wouldn't notice they are drinking at that level.

I appreciate this is the average so many will be way above that, but interesting to extrapolate it out.

> But alcohol is a cheap, readily available blunt instrument against this pain. No matter how bad you feel, if you down a litre of booze, that pain will definitely, and quickly, stop.

Never happened to me. I'm not a drinker but I have of course consumed alcohol. Life is as painful as usual with or without alcohol in my body. If any, life is more miserably with alcohol because I look more pathetic than usual (classic drunk face), my voice is not clear, my mouth smells like shit, and I walk funny (if I can walk at all).

Not sure about other drugs, though (never tried).

I'm with you - my body cannot process alcohol well, I'm hungover aftger couple of beers. As such I do not drink much, parties only, maybe once a year (if that).

It has always scared me what my life would be if I did tolerate alcohol well. Really, really scary thought!

You don't think like that when drunk, in fact very opposite of it. Those few hours are enough for some desperate enough to go for it repeatedly, with real risks of fucking up their lives permanently. Same for all other addictive drugs.

People are not rational, that's just a very thin layer on top of emotions dictating most of our lives. Some almost don't have them, some are more rational (me too). But its important to recognize these aspects of us, and be at peace with them, easier to work with them like that.

> Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods.

Huh. I don't think I would have seen OP's point about people being strangely dismissive to the idea of alcohol as a social lubricant until you provided an example.

Saying alcohol is not needed for socializing is like saying everybody is fully aware that alcoholis not needed to numb bad feelings because they were happy when they were children.

>Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socializations without it, because of their childhoods.

Sure... you can also learn everything a Stanford class teaches online. You can find alternatives for the networking aspects, etc. Still... universities tend to be how people do this. You can bodybuild without a gym. Indomitable willpower & a DIY ethic are admirable, but "hacks" are still the way 90% of people get the job done.

I think you are downplaying how hard it is to be social, in various contexts. Alcohol can be used to dull pain. This definitely does occur frequently, especially once substance abuse is the pattern.

This does not negate the earlier comment about lubricating social interactions. That's generally the starting point for alcohol use. Flirting in high school. Being socially adventurous in college. Getting intimate with coworkers.

Substance mediated mind alteration is not new. It's not just escapism or "opium for the masses." There are many real reasons people use mind altering substances. Escapism & "opium for the masses," is, however, usually the mode when/once we're talking about addiction.

If you look at why alcoholics drink, and why high schoolers drink.... the reasons are just different.

Are we, arguably a bunch of antisocial nerds posting to an obscure extremely-online forum, really making theses about how hard socialization is for the average person? This is like a plumber talking about art history. We're out of our depth to a hilarious degree.

Finally someone with some semblance of self awareness.

I hope you're not antisocial if you're designing software for society.

I think you mean you're a little introverted or awkward. Some other people tend like that too though, don't be too hard on yourself. We also need to socialize.

Would an antisocial design software for society in the first place? Obviously, he’s being hyperbolic. You might not be the one to read social cues. But don’t be too hard on yourself. It gets better with practice.

It's not just pain, it’s thoughts too (which can also be related of course). I’m someone who will overthink which leads to worries that don’t need to exist and bring no benefit. This is why it helps me socialise, I’m far more likely to talk myself out of it because of the perceived “risk”. Rate limiting my thoughts lets me just act.

That's one important reason, but there's another one that is even more neglected: it just... tastes good (for those of us who like it, of course).

For example, as a 90 kg man, for me drinking a single 33cl bottle of beer has pretty much the same effect as drinking water, i.e., I don't feel anything at all (note that I don't drive, in that context it would probably still be relevant). So when I have a single beer with dinner, there is zero intention of socializing, stupefying myself or whatever. I just like the taste (and don't order alcohol-free beer, which is healthier, because I hate its taste).

Similarly, having a red wine with a strong sheep milk cheese is an amazing experience, just because the tastes combine so well and enhance each other.

If there were alcohol-free versions of the beverages that tasted the same, I'd probably use them most of the time (except in some social contexts). There is no such thing, though.

I think culture toward drinking is the determining factor. In my culture we are brought up around wine, heavy spirits, and beer. There is no such thing as comming of age by drinking yourself stupid as in UK, US or Australia for example. Intoxication is considered VERY bad form (embarassing). Usually when people feel they are becoming intoxicated they will excuse themselves and go home.

Which culture is that?

southern europe

In which part of Southern Europe do people excuse themselves when they are becoming intoxicated? Because that's not true in France, Italy, Spain and Portugal unless you have very prudish acquaintances.

> France, Italy, Spain and Portugal

does not compare to the drinking culture of poms, aussies, or yanks

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/indones...

Alcohol by itself is tasteless though. And alcohol-free beer is getting better at very high speed. Keep trying it every now and then, you'll be surprised.

Many of the compounds / tastes in alcoholic drinks are byproducts of the fermentation process, even if the ethanol itself is tasteless.

And alcohol free beer is generally made by removing the alcohol after fermentation. The problem is, the process of removing the alcohol can also affect the taste, but they're much better at it these days than they used to be.

Most good low alcohol beers are fully fermented and just remove the ethanol via vacuum evaporation or reverse osmosis. Whilst in practice it is difficult the is no theoretical reasons it would damage the taste.

> Alcohol by itself is tasteless though.

There seems to be disagreement over this.

To me, alcoholic beverages have a distinctive taste in common (stronger in spirits and weaker in beer or wine), which I always assumed was the taste of the alcohol itself.

Some sources describe pure ethanol as 'tasteless', albeit strongly odoured; if this is true, then I guess what I interpret as a taste is really the combination of the smell & the burning sensation.

But other sources describe it as having a taste -- e.g. CAMEO Chemicals (via PubChem) says ethanol has a 'pungent taste', and a paper I find when googling says 10% ethanol tastes bitter to everyone and sweet to some (and I know that's not exactly alcohol 'by itself' but they do attribute the taste to the ethanol).

I think if something has a strong smell it by definition has a strong taste? Most of what you taste is the smell. If you close your nose a lot of food becomes quite tasteless.

And yet coffee smells awesome but the taste is nothing like it. Not that it's tasteless but it's definitely very different.

Coffee contains many alkaloids (including caffeine), which are quite bitter but have little or no odour. Alcohol on the other hand has a very strong odour.

Alcohol-free beers have got a lot better in the past 10 years

Also hop water is delicious.

I would say even in the last 3 years there's been big strides.

I tried one a few weeks ago, in my son's end of schoolyear party. I found it so bad that I couldn't even make myself go beyond the second gulp... I had to stealthily leave it somewhere and pick a bottle of water.

It could be that my local beer brand uses old tech, though.

I'll keep trying from time to time, but at the moment nothing comes even remotely close to the real thing for my taste.

Try one from a brand with multiple 0/ish% beers, not just the 0/lite/whatever version of the 'normal' product. Then it's actually designed to be a good drink, with a distinct profile to another one.

Similar to my advice on vegetarian food - you don't want it to be 'the vegetarian version', de-meated from the normal one. You want the vegetables to become the star, so you want an XYZ (what are the vegetables) lasagne, not a 'vegetarian lasagne'.

Sam Adams "Just the Haze" is my favorite 0% beer right now. Personally, I prefer a tonic & (lots) of lime or iced tea if I'm abstaining.

They’re a lot better, but they’re still nowhere close to the real thing.

It’s absolutely beneficial there’s no chance of hangovers though.

In the US I strongly recommend Athletic Brewing Co

Absolutely agree with the taste aspect. I (male) went 0% when my gf went off of birth control and kept it that way throughout pregnancy until now (baby's 9 months) and I certainly miss some of the tastes (beers, wines, liqueur). My luck is that I enjoy drinking Heineken 0.0 and most of the 0.3%/0.5% IPA's they sell now (at least here, Netherlands). As for 0% alternatives for wines and liqueur, they haven't come close to me yet to enjoy them.

For me, there's nothing 'principal' about it btw, it just works, for now. The upside is of course no negative effects (ie hangover) and much less threshold to open one, even on the rare occasion we have a warm meal during lunch time (I work from home).

Was this for moral support or can it damage sperm somehow? Asking for a friend.

Alcohol interferes with your liver’s ability to process vitamin A, which in turn has a negative impact on sperm production. That said, moral support is also a pretty good reason.

In australia the 4 pines alcohol free* tastes so realistic (and good) that it is hard to tell the difference other than the lack of sting from the alcohol. It is good stuff. But there are many bad alcohol free beers.

* usually means < 0.5%

Increasingly, there are! Where I live (Switzerland) there is a roaring trade in non alcoholic or very low alcohol drinks. I admit none are yet as tasty to me as a good IPA, but the market clearly wants what you do. If my beer of choice was more toward lager I might even be happier.

> single 33cl bottle of beer

What kind of beer though? 33cl is nothing but we still have to compare apples to apples.

Mystery of Beer vs something like Budweiser is a no-no.

I am not sure about good taste of alcohol. I can agree about some wines and brandys (although they are universally better to smell than to taste), but beer? Bitter liquid, enriched with CO2. Do you remember first time you tasted beer, probably at the age of 5-7 from the bottle of your father? I can't see anyone liking non-alcoholic beer outside social context.

Thankfully, brewers have discovered that there are other types of beer than IPAs.

I agree with this totally. For me, the strongest manifestation is cognac. A good cognac is just fantastic. The main thing is the tail, that just goes on and on in different stages of taste and sensation. I'd drink it all day if I could. But if I did... er... that would not be good.

I had a glass of Louis XIII Cognac a few years ago and was really surprised at how much better it was than a VSOP. As you say the tail lasted so long and was so rich and complex, I didn't expect it to be that incredible.

Whoah! Haven't had one yet. Saving that until I make a lot more money! :)

But on a more affordable level I recommend checking out https://www.cognac-expert.com. They do have the incredibly expensive stuff, but at a also a reasonable-price range that goes well beyond the standard Remy, Hennessy, etc. VSOP or even XO. A world to explore!

Looking at that link it's a scary and expensive hobby. Having said that my brother used to get my dad a £200-500 bottle of scotch for Christmas each year so definitely something to explore. Cheers.

Relevant xkcd: https://m.xkcd.com/1534/

It tastes good because a) you like the carbonation (try drinking sparkling water), and b) your brain wants the alcohol, so it makes beers or anything resembling it taste good.

> don't order alcohol-free beer, which is healthier, because I hate its taste

I love the wide variety of tastes you can get. Beers are getting there, but there is no alcohol free wine or spirit that comes close to the flavour carrying profile of decent drinks.

I make quite a lot of cocktails and have some quite decent alcohol free ones in my repertoire, but compared to the alcoholic ones there are a very poor imitation.

Bavaria brand non-alcoholic beer, pomegranate flavor. If you can find it, it's delicious. The regular flavor tastes more like beer but also tastes great.

I believe the main reason people drink is for its euphoric, anxiolytic and relaxing effects.

These are desirable on their own, but they are also very useful specifically for socializing.

Great points and whereas many may begin drinking to aid in some way with social interactions there are many that drink for what I think is closer to the second part/activity of the quote, to hide, forget, ignore, avoid, etc., and often increase their consumption while isolating themselves. For the alcoholic, it's more about what Tolstoy was saying than about social lubrication

> For the alcoholic

Well, no. Alcoholism can start regardless of the reason you start drinking. There are plenty of "social lubricant" drinkers who became alcoholics because of the pernicious GABA regulation cycle.

You might start drinking to have a better social life, but eventually you drink to cure the hangover, to cure the shakes, to cure the anxiety that alcohol withdrawal gives you. Then it's just a cyclical pattern of poisoning yourself to cure the effects of the last poisoning.

When your addiction becomes physical, it doesn't matter why you started drinking in the first place. Now the only reason you drink is to function.

I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober. I miss the social life at times, but really, as Tolstoy remarks, it was just an escape from my true nature which I hadn't yet figured out. And what a mess that was.

So yes, its a social thing, but is it good? It's something. There are other ways.

> I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober.

Being drunk and consuming alcohol is not the same thing. I like to drink a couple of beers but not more than that.

I feel this is the same discussion as with veganism - anything that's not 100% pure it's getting called drunkard and berated for that. Meh.

This comment really resonates with me. As someone who doesn't drink anymore, I've found how much of a hermit I am and how much I'm okay with that and how it's my true self. I really have few friends, and the ones I do I actually do activities with. My wife is the same way.

When text messaging started to take off in the 90s, adults didn't get it. Typing on a keypad sucks, and the phone already has a great communication app. It's called the phone, and if you call someone you can hear each other talk.

What they didn't understand is that "I think you're cute. Wanna go on a date?" is much easier in text. That's why kids always passed notes in class.

These things lubricate high friction social interactions... the kinds of things that people agonize over, regret, etc. You're right, this is alcohol's primary purpose. Most people stay here.

I mean first off, only a vocal minority of adults didn't get it; this is usually the case with advancements like this.

The same generation you're talking about was also the generation that would write letters and keep diaries, in addition to phone calls. The generations before that didn't have phones would write letters or telegrams. TL;DR, text based communication wasn't a novel concept, but what changed was that it was short and instantaneous.

"makes it easier to socialize ... even though alcohol is bad in many ways"

Isn't this justification you bring your activities into harmony with conscience?

> It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize

But is unconscious socialization the same as conscious socialization? IMO all socialization is not equal. If you're "engaging" with people who are intoxicated themselves, while you are intoxicated, does that truly yield the same benefits as a genuine, no-barrier interaction? In my experience, no.

That’s the wrong dichotomy. The options for some people are socializing while tipsy vs. not socializing or connecting openly at all.

No one is “unconscious” after one or two glasses of wine lol

Agree to disagree.

Your fist statement is a rather disingenuous and a contrived, false premise. Further, this very OP links to a prominent drinker arguing the opposite of your other point.

> It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize, and socializing is very, very good for people.

Except (some) people take in more alcohol than is necessary to accomplish that result. He's talking about stupefying, and refers to more than just alcohol:

> What is the explanation of the fact that people use things that stupefy them: vodka, wine, beer, hashish, opium, tobacco, and other things less common: ether, morphia, fly-agaric, etc.?

Does taking hashish and opium allow for easier socializing?

Further:

> The cause of the world-wide consumption of hashish, opium, wine, and tobacco, lies not in the taste, nor in any pleasure, recreation, or mirth they afford, but simply in man’s need to hide from himself the demands of conscience.

I think the response to this from Tolstoy's perspective is that by imbibing a drug which makes socializing easier, you're doing (1) or (2). E.g. your inner voice is telling you that you should be social, you're failing at it, so you drink to fulfill the demand of that voice, which is (1). Or maybe you drink to escape trauma which sounds a lot like (2).

The point is really that all existence is filtered through the lens of the mind. This is related to the idea of solipsism, to which I think Tolstoy subscribed to some degree. I haven't studied any of that stuff since college though, maybe a philosophy PhD is lurking around HN...

I think that is intended by Tolstoy. He gives the following extreme example

> A drunken man is ashamed of none of these things, and therefore if a man wishes to do something his conscience condemns he stupefies himself.

Stupefies is a negative term because he is against alcohol but socialising is easier because of exact same reason. It removes the filter and we could do things which we are "ashamed" of, even if there is nothing to be ashamed of. e.g. I am ashamed of talking to stranger or discussing details of my life when sober.

Maybe as a corollary. But the answer is really simple when you start out. It makes you feel good. Some of these answers feel like people are allergic to straightforward answers.

I enjoy drinking alone.

you’re socializing with yourself

That is a really cool way of putting it. Disclaimer : Everything in moderation.

I think of it more as ‘quieting’ the mind - the internal monologue - this does help with socialising, and numbing bad feelings, but it’s still useful when neither of those things are relevant I.e. winding down after a full-on day. I socialise (and have bad thoughts) in the mornings too, but I dont want a drink then

> "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before."

I mean, you know what people also use to "hide from oneself the indications of conscience"? Reading long novels, like the ones Tolstoy wrote.

Alcohol doesn't exist for socializing, though it does make socializing easier. Correlation does not equal causation.

No, alcohol exists for a very simple reason: Clean and sanitary beverage.

Lest we forget, alcohol is alcohol. It is by its very nature sanitary and safe to drink, which is why humanity has long consumed it. Safe and clean drinking water in abundance is a fairly modern phenomenon, and it's still only available in a small part of the world at large.

Given that, alcohol satisfies both aforementioned activities.

Producing and consuming alcohol is harmonious with conscience, that is the desire to "do right" both for yourself and your peers, because beverages that are safe to drink is critically important to yourself and everyone.

It is also denying the brutal reality of the world we live in, that is to say we hide from our desire to "do right" because producing and consuming alcohol is easier than ensuring clean and safe drinking water while achieving the same practical goal.

Alcohol obviously has its problems, but they are far better than ones incurred from drinking foul water.

> No, alcohol exists for a very simple reason: Clean and sanitary beverage.

That’s why distillation was developed: to separate alcohol from water via evaporation and condensation and get a super-clean and super-sanitary beverage - with as little water as possible.

To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. Most likely you will know the same people so chat about that. Say where you live then ask them where they live. Listen to their response. Ask them what they like about where they live. Ask what you should see if you visit their neighborhood. Ask what they think of the music. Listen to their response. Thank them for sharing their opinion. Be self deprecating. Let them talk and you add the odd comment. Alcohol is not required for that. All that’s required is to be sincerely interested in people.

> To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know.

YMMV. If you have real social anxiety, the above is just about impossible. People who haven't experienced it just don't know. It's extremely difficult to understand if you haven't been there. Normal shyness is a different animal. It's sort of like depression. Although people may think you should just snap out of it, you can't.

And alcohol definitely can help. Believe me, I know. My life was pretty much dominated by social anxiety in my college years and 20's. Gradually it's gotten much better. I never drank a lot, but in those social situations where my self-consciousness made it pretty much impossible to do as you suggest, having some alcohol really made a positive difference. (This was long ago, I'm 67 now.)

I don't recommend using it that way if you also have any other characteristics that could turn you into an alcoholic, because it's possible you'll stop using it and it will start using you. It's dangerous. It can destroy your life. But for me, in specific situations when I needed some help in order to be less self-conscious and more out there, it did help. (Therapy pretty much didn't, for me, but in recent years, meditation does.)

Responses like this are a great indicator of never having had troubles socializing. Some hints of what might go wrong for people more pathetic than you could ever imagine existing:

* Not having the chance to go to a party. (i.e. never being invited, or being in government-mandated house arrest for years to accomodate for other people who might die of a certain disease. Or both.)

* Having the chance to go to a party, but still refusing because of the dread going to a party induces. (Possibly related to trauma caused by previously going to a party, see below. (Or any trauma caused by other humans, really.))

* Actually going to a party, but not having the communication skills to naturally start a conversation with some random person.

* Starting a conversation nevertheless, only to come to the same conclusion (also traumatizing yourself in the process after you get ignored).

* As an extension: trying to join a conversation, but being ignored by all participants for being uninteresting, annoying, weird, or simply ugly. (Or all of the former.)

* Sitting/standing alone for most of the party because of the aforementioned problems, then after a few occasions deciding that surely this wasn't worth the time and never going to a party again.

Alcohol may or may not help with these problems. (It doesn't for me, so in the end I just gave up.)

I am introverted and I have had to go out of my way to do what I suggested. So, replace party with workplace, or grocery store, or laundromat. The setting doesn't matter. Health issues can't be changed and that's a tragedy but still the person will interact with health care workers and social workers. Use them for socializing. Is not having communication skills really a valid excuse? I assume we have all learned some sort of skill to support our adult selves financially so learn to communicate. I will admit that the point about someone writing you off as ugly, weird, annoying, not interesting is tough as I have felt that. I had to learn to be sincerely interested in the whole person and not the superficial. If the person has a defensive wall up that doesn't let me get to know them then I won't press it.

I think it's better to say a social lubricant for getting sex. Walking up and chatting is not the same as loosening people up for potential hook ups (unless you're really gorgeous to begin with)

Socialising is hard for many people, this is well known…

>Socializing is not hard.

lol.

>Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know

LOL.

My man, if only you had a shred of an idea of how things really are for many people.

People are far more social in middle eastern countries where alcohol is banned.

Citation needed? How do you measure being far more social?

I think it is a general observation ... I don't think there is a real measurements of happiness or socialability

I'm pretty sure, from an extended stint working out there, that folks in Saudi Arabia aren't exactly all social mix n'mingle types.

I think there is a difference between a community socializing among themselves, and socialing with immigrant/tourists/foreigners. Qatar world cup is one example I think of where the barrier to socializing with *the others* was removed.

I happen to work for a company that has banned alcohol for religious reasons. I would not say the company is particularly social, on the contrary. However, as an alcoholic[0] maybe I am blinded or excluded from the social nirvana of my non-alcoholic colleagues.

edit: [0] I learned that irony not really works on a forum. I occasionally drink, but I am get up early enough to bring my kids to school.

Good point - why is that? How do they acheive it and what are the tradeoffs? An American example that comes to mind is the Mormons. Are they playing a lot of Mafia in the middle east? Hookah bars? Mosques?

The answer is the focus on community. Alcohol brings people together physically, only to isolate them mentally. Alcohol has individual short-term "benefits", for some, but detrimental effects on communities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsdrunk

Socializing is not the point of alcohol. People use it for many other reasons, besides just to socialize.

I would know.

Mercy! Educating a Russian on reasons to get drunk!

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