Comment by haswell | Hacker News Reader

Comment by haswell | Hacker News Reader

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> One of the enduring myths about Apple's late entry into product sectors is the idea that they're waiting to "get it right". The first iPhone was a joke, it took them until the 3GS to get it right.

I don't agree that this is a myth.

If you look at the first generation iPhone in a vacuum, it was limited, perhaps (but I think there are plenty of arguments that the first gen iPhone was pushing envelopes - name one other phone that had a fully functioning web browser at the time, and pinch/zoom felt magical), but nitpicks about functionality aside, I don't think this framing makes sense for other reasons.

A product line is not just its initial release. It is a process, an organizational discipline, a manufacturing and logistics pipeline, an ongoing upgrade cycle, an ongoing engagement with customers, an understanding of the market, etc.

When the first generation phone was released, plans for the 3GS were already well under way. The 1st gen phone was a necessary step to get you that 3GS. When operating at Apple's scale, at least a decade of roadmap if not more was already planned in depth. The 3GS was not a reaction to the success of the 1, it is the real product Apple envisioned and planned to ship before we even knew the iPhone would exist.

If the 3GS got it right, so did the gen 1, in a certain sense.

And as an aside, I have to say I really liked my 1st gen iPhone compared to everything else I'd had up to that point, and I was a gadget junkie who had owned quite a few of the other "hot" phones at the time.

I'm not looking at the iPhone in a vaccuum. I'm also taking into consideration other things Apple has inexplicably delayed for multiple years:

- support for mouse input

- a native file manager app (2017!)

- pressure-sensitive pens and screens (~ 4 years after Samsung)

- Multiple apps on same screen (2019!)

None of these are things that take years to get right. Apple commentators simply get lazy and recycle this iPod-era talking point.

> a native file manager app (2017!)

What would you do with one on a device where every app is heavily sandboxed and there's no common file system?

> pressure-sensitive pens and screens (~ 4 years after Samsung)

When they did release this, no competition was even close to the precision and fidelity.

When Apple releases something later than competition it's usually (but not always) justified and results in a better execution

> What would you do with one on a device where every app is heavily sandboxed and there's no common file system?

Access each app's sandbox to move/copy/exfiltrate the data contained there, for whatever reason the user desires. Not much different from the way file managers are used on traditional desktop systems.

> Access each app's sandbox to move/copy/exfiltrate the data contained there, for whatever reason the user desires.

That breaks the security promise that apps don't have direct access to other apps' data.

There's a reason you can't even access photos without an explicit user prompt.

> Not much different from the way file managers are used on traditional desktop systems

Traditional desktop systems never had heavily sandboxed apps with no outside access

> That breaks the security promise that apps don't have direct access to other apps' data.

No it doesn't. Giving the user the ability to get their hands on their own data is not the same as giving other apps direct access to it.

> Traditional desktop systems never had heavily sandboxed apps with no outside access

That's completely orthogonal.

> Giving the user the ability to get their hands on their own data

Does the user have the need for that on an iPhone?

I don't think a single app on my phone has any files I'd ever need access to

> That's completely orthogonal.

Of course it's not orthogonal

> Of course it's not orthogonal

You questioned whether there was a use case for file managers when apps do not share a "common file system" and are "heavily sandboxed", and stipulated that providing one would break the security promise of not giving apps "direct access to other apps' data".

Whether desktop systems have traditionally sandboxed their apps to the same degree is, in fact, orthogonal. It's a separate question entirely.

> Does the user have the need for that on an iPhone?

Sorry, but when I spot somebody moving the goalposts (and failing to acknowledge when one they staked out earlier was satisfied), my approach is not to indulge them by continuing to respond as if they're just like anyone else having a discussion in good faith. Instead, I say, "you are moving the goalposts; you are not asking in good faith". This is monumentally helpful in making economical use of my time.

Regarding looking at the iPhone in a vacuum, I was referring to the iPhone gen 1 vs. the iPhone product line as a whole. The point was that the claims don't make sense unless you look at just the first generation of the product, which was clearly not Apple's vision.

Regarding other features, I don't understand the connection you're trying to draw here, or how they serve as counterpoints. All these anecdotes point to is where Apple has chosen to focus resources and in what order. Having worked on a product team, there are dozens of "obvious" things that get cut from every release. I don't see this as some enormous indictment of the product.

Mouse input on what? iPhone? Is this a thing?

A native file manager is a feature that applies to a small subset of users. Do some people want it? Sure! Does a lack of it somehow imply Apple is failing? I think that's hard to argue. Anecdotally, as a highly technical user, I rarely if ever touch that app. I don't think most of my friends/family know it exists.

Multiple apps on the same screen ... on the only tablet in the market worth considering. Again, this is a gripe about roadmap order and not an effective argument against the core claim.

And core to the claim is the fact that Apple is often late to the party.

> None of these are things that take years to get right. Apple commentators simply get lazy and recycle this iPod-era talking point.

I don't think anyone is making the claim that these things take years to get right. More interesting than this would be to examine what they chose to ship instead.

If you don't believe the iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch, MacBook Air and AirPods are market-defining products, we'll have to just agree to disagree. It's not as if the iPod was the last product to resemble the "Apple does it better" pattern.

> When operating at Apple's scale, at least a decade of roadmap if not more was already planned in depth.

I highly doubt that considering that web app / native app store debacle.

Also was there any real reason to not support 3g from the beginning? A lot of “dumber” phones had it so it seems more likely that they just made a mistake.

I'm referring primarily to the hardware side of this from a roadmap perspective.

I don't think early politics about how apps get shipped plays too much into the core planning for the device, e.g. form factor, manufacturing, user interactions, structure of built-in apps, etc. are all pretty much orthogonal to the app distribution model.

But even then, there were clearly two camps, which means there was a disagreement about a specific path, but not a lack of forward thinking. And then they course corrected. Something that many companies simply do not do.

Yeah absolutely. I just don’t think that consumer tech companies which make 10 year plans (instead of a broad high level vision) and try to stick to them tend to be that successful.

> are all pretty much orthogonal to the app distribution model.

I’m not sure it’s only the distribution but the entire existence of native third party apps that they weren’t sure about.

I was including 1st party vs. 3rd party in my mind when I mentioned distribution. Admittedly that word is doing some heavy lifting.

I'm pretty sure the whole web app thing was just a smoke screen (aka lie) because the app store wasn't ready yet.

> I highly doubt that considering that web app / native app store debacle.

You mean the same Apple where Jobs said that no one would want to watch video on a tiny screen less than two years before the video iPod?

Apple didn’t go from idea of a fully featured SDK and an App Store in nine months without already planning to do so.

IMO it's only a debacle for developers who don't want to learn the native platform or don't think they can do it.

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