UPDATE
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36708881 - ReclameAqui is a Brazilian website where customers can file complaints about companies. Netflix seems to be doing that to a lot of customers...
UPDATE
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36708881 - ReclameAqui is a Brazilian website where customers can file complaints about companies. Netflix seems to be doing that to a lot of customers...
I'm ready to believe that the renewal prompt was heavily geared towards making it easy to renew, and Netflix should be required to make it equally easy to cancel, but unless you know he didn't click a button to confirm the charge (with dollar amount listed), I'd hesitate to label the re-onboarding process as crooked.
the solution proposed in the chat was to logout every device at once and delete my credit card so that wouldn't happen again.
Shouldn't matter, right?! Once I cancelled was not supposed to be charged again unless I agree to it.
If my father wanted to renew the subscription, he should use his card, right?
the renewal process should function as a new subscription, if not done by the same person that subscribed in the first place.
Netflix doesn't auto renew simply by watching. It asks you to renew the subscription. It requires conscious consent.
If Netflix is going to charge me money, they need to prove that I incurred the charge. They could do this by making a record of the date, device and profile that renewed. But they can't.
In my case they refunded the erroneously renewed subscription as a "one time courtesy". Like they're doing me a favor. Yeah, it's "one time" because I'd have to be a fool to do business with a company that treats me this way.
Most likely they do, and decided it wasn't worth fighting over this issue.
OP's dad, using OP's account, consented to billing. There's really no other option, unless we're just going to say things non-technies think, like the computer decided on it's own or something.
Netflix cannot just randomly decide to charge people for things. That would obviously be fraud, and Netflix wouldn't still be a company today if they depended on fraud for billings. Think about it...
And you'd never find a bank like Wells Fargo committing fraud for money, right? Because surely they wouldn't be a bank?
And you'd never find a company violating its own user privacy rules, like Facebook, because they'd surely be out of business, right?
And you'd never find a major phone company billing people for things they didn't have the right to do, because surely AT&T would be out of business, right?
The fact is: "most likely" and "probably" and your uninformed best guess about what happened is not knowing.
I'm not sure why you would think that the only reason that I would think that Netflix restarted my subscription in error is that I'm a "non-techie" (and ugh, what an odious way to try to dismiss someone) who thinks "the computer decided on it's [sic] own." It tells me a lot about your understanding that you can't imagine many scenarios where the interaction of a complex, mostly non-technical system of product design, business decisionmakers, microservice integrations, several apps on hundreds of distinct platforms might behave in an unexpected way that treats consumers unfairly, with varying levels of intention or neglect at different layers.
As the consumer, I'm getting charged the money and I'm the one who needs the justification to indicate that it was authorized. I disagree with your perspective that "Well, they're a 'company', therefore they must have a good reason to charge me, I better pay it".
I do, in fact, think it's "most likely" that someone did... something... on a logged-in device that restarted the subscription. However, I think it's very unlikely that that involved presenting a new billing agreement that they agreed to, or providing the password to my account (remember, this is a subscription that was cancelled, not suspended or paused or frozen or any other kind of seemingly-temporary measure--since Netflix doesn't offer a way to remove accounts, it's the strongest thing I can do to sever my business relationship with them). If the logic is unintentional: an edge case of a logged-in device where that particular app on that platform sent the wrong cookie when starting a stream, etc., then Netflix not caring to investigate and solve it is because they're happy to collect revenue from erroneous and unjustified subscriptions in the hope that consumers won't notice or fight it; which is gross. If the logic is intentional: to obscure the fact that whatever action the user takes results in a re-subscription; then it's gross and possibly illegal (dunno, not a lawyer, and my definition of "crooked" might include things that aren't yet against the law). Either way, they are likely to keep doing it until forced to stop, because your naïve perspective that companies can never do anything wrong is absolutely incorrect.
I do want to correct something I said. You said that Netflix doesn't really know it's you. My response was that you gave your dad access but I realize I was wrong about that because people in your own house have access to logged in devices which is allowed normally.
---------
The difference between authentication (your account) and authorization (your streaming plan) is the first issue here they are separate and for good reason. There actually is a way is a way to delete your account [2]. Even if you don't do this it is automatically deleted after 10 months. Why don't they delete your account when you cancel the subscription?
Think of how annoying it would be if your subscription and account were one in the same, considering your account holds viewer data, watchlists, profiles, etc. Here's some scenarios:
1. Payment fails because you went over the limit on your credit card or it expired.
2. You want to cancel for two months and then reactivate (I knew someone who did this every few months to save money)
3. You change your mind after canceling
4. Canceled by accident
5. Someone else who has access cancels
Why not lock the account?
How do you unlock it? Calling them is time consuming and expensive for everyone. They could require the password to be reentered but many people who share Netflix accounts give out the password as well so that's not really a global solution (I assume you didn't). Maybe a support email? or chat support system? Both are time consuming and also money for them.
------
The fault is 40% you, 50% your dad, and 10% Netflix keeping it easy for business reasons.
- You should have told your family that you were canceling Netflix, wouldn't they have bothered you anyway if it suddenly didn't work? (assuming Netflix did wipe everything)
- Your dad should have contacted you when he was prompted. I know mine would if he saw something about a subscription being reactivated.
- You could have changed the password of the account
- You could have invalidated all the existing sessions (assuming he didn't have the password)
- Finally, delete the account as well per their instructions
Those last three are all stated in their FAQ about preventing reactivation of accounts and how to delete your account.
Is it fraud on their part? No, nor is it deception just because they only asked your dad to reactivate a subscription instead of also saying "This will incur costs of $19.99 a month.." I will agree with you they could have automatically invalidated all the sessions when you cancel a subscription but you had options.
Finally you were refunded after contacting them. Did they hassle you? How long did it take? You said "...then Netflix not caring to investigate " was the reason they refunded you quickly. They didn't investigate it because they have good customer service. As a subscription service they want you to be happy and, even if you cancel, you might consider coming back. Starting an investigation for one months fee isn't worth it.
On Hackernews we often discuss services where it's difficult to cancel. There are even some where you have to call like the NY times. This isn't the case for both the Netflix subscription AND the Netflix account. Both can be deleted using the app without interacting with a person.
[1] https://help.netflix.com/en/node/407 [2]https://help.netflix.com/en/node/126558
Did you think you were replying to OP? I'm not OP, my dad is not involved.
I'm not saying your dad was lying—it's very possible for someone to click on a button like that (or even two—renew and confirm) and not remember it at all. My dad had a freaky call with what he believed to be Paypal customer support about a scam email, in which they wanted him to give them remote access to his computer. He swore up and down that he didn't call the number in the sketchy email, that he'd looked up the number, but on further investigation he definitely did call the scam number. My dad is a perfectly healthy middle-aged adult, but still misremembered what happened.
https://www.reclameaqui.com.br/netflix/conta-reativada-sem-a...
https://www.reclameaqui.com.br/netflix/cancelar-assinatura_R...
https://www.reclameaqui.com.br/netflix/cancelei-a-minha-assi...
https://www.reclameaqui.com.br/netflix/cobranca-no-cartao-me...
I mean, sorry about the topics being in PT-BR, but they seem to be doing that with a lot of customers...
Of course their cancellation numbers are low after the password sharing change - it's very easy to keep that revenue flowing if you're willing to borderline commit fraud to keep your customers.
Indeed. This really is asking for a lawsuit.
Yeah if I stay in my apartment after my lease expires my landlord is gonna charge me rent. Obviously, Netflix shouldn’t have let you in, but…
> I have talked to my father, he did not clicked anything.
I learned long ago not to trust technological recollections coming from my parents.
Ironically, Netflix was actually right about password sharing: someone else with your login credentials can do whatever they want. For all you know your dad is mad that he’s losing Netflix and hit the renew button.
Of course, it would be nice if Netflix would create a family sharing mechanism like Apple and Google have.
If you stay a day past your lease your landlord can charge you the next month’s rent.
If you take a wrong turn and accidentally enter a toll highway you’ll get charged a toll, automatically in many places.
If you forget to turn your faucet off you’ll pay for water and sewer usage even if you said you didn’t need the water.
I’m not defending Netflix for willingly making the process this way, but at the same time individuals also have the responsibility to follow some basic instructions and stop using things that they want to cancel.
If I say “that’s so hot” I can be talking about sexual intercourse or my microwaved hot pocket.
Same words, different intent, different meaning.
Netflix being wrong and the customer being wrong are not mutually exclusive. At some point it has to be acknowledged that adults are responsible for navigating the world and paying attention.
The most ridiculous thing is that about a year ago I specifically bumped up my plan to the more expensive one because we were sharing with some family members. As a result of them enforcing this sharing rule, we ended up canceling and they get nothing from us now.
"I didn't click anything!" usually means 1) They're embarrassed to admit they clicked something or 2) They are embarrasses to admit they didn't read some prompt before clicking through it.
Even if the user doesn't remember clicking something, or doesn't remember what that something said before they clicked it - they still clicked it.
Think about it for a second. Think about how software works, how billing works, and how the law works. What you propose, a hidden re-billing mechanism, would invite so many lawsuits it wouldn't be worth it. Not to mention the fraud allegations, bad PR, etc.
Your dad signed in, was prompted with something saying he needed to re-activate billing to use Netflix, and he agreed. It's that simple.
To make the story more relevant for your point my father payed the bill at the checkout and I denied watching porn at all. He got mad at the hotel and wrote legal complaints to the HQ to get the porn money back ... dunno if he succeeded.
You were certainly warned what would happen, and likely had some sort of parental advisory warning you clicked through. IDK German law regarding these things, but in the US you usually have to manually opt-into "adult" channels when at a hotel.
The fact that you denied watching it at all really serves to make my point, though. Users deny deny deny... but they still did it, didn't they?
I remember that I knew it was a pay channel, but I thought it would go dark after a sneak peak unless I called some pay number for a code or something, like the pay TV channels on the satellite TV at home.
I've logged into a cancelled Netflix account before, and while they definitely want you to renew, there's a very clearly marked button that includes the renewal price. If OP's dad absent-mindedly clicked that button, that's a very different story than if simply logging in and navigating to a movie issued a new charge.
For one I don’t want to spend my life dealing with every underhanded attempt to take my money and two kids elderly and the vulnerable are the ones who fall prey to it and usually the least able to absorb the financial cost.
I went through the cancellation process got a cancellation confirmation email and then still got billed at the end of the month. I called and they did reverse the charges and told me it had happened because a behind the scenes box was checked for automatic payments - I scoured the page to see if that was a user facing option and it was nowhere. Cancelling but continuing payments simply makes no sense.
But when I had my customer service interaction, they said they could not tell me that that's what happened, or if it did, when and on what device. That to me is inexcusable. If you're going to charge me money you need to be able to justify why and for what.
Secondly, I could not use Netflix's interface to remove or deauthorize my payment method. Also unconscionable. The customer service agent needed to "block" my card (how do I know that they even did it? I have no way to verify as the payment method remains associated with the account).
It's not on me to "know" someone "didn't" do something--it's incumbent on Netflix to actually know and have a record that that's what happened. If they don't do that--then yeah, crooked.
How come Netflix would allow anyone other than me use my credit card to subscribe (or renew the subscription) without even asking that?
My father don't have access to my card, neither other members of my family. If Netflix was being honest they would ask at least that. The security code of your card to prove it is the card holder making a purchase.
Password sharing means that they assume everyone using your account is you. I notice you ignored my question about whether your father had a separate account, so I'm assuming he did not.
Netflix should make it easy to cancel your subscription, but using an issuer token isn't card fraud, it's good business and an overall benefit to 99% of customers.
[0] https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/improving-cards-under...
Edit, source for my claim that Netflix uses tokens: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20181018005247/en/Vis...
What you're on about acting like I don't know what I'm talking about is absolute nonsense.
Besides, regardless of the means by which card updates are handled, it isn't fraud. You authorized Netflix to charge an account, not a particular physical card. If you want to revoke that authorization, you need to revoke the authorization, not get mad at them when they work with Visa to streamline the process of charging the authorized account.
We absolutely do need to improve transparency and require companies like this to make canceling easy, but hyperbole but like yours isn't helping us get there—it makes those of us fighting bad behavior seem irrational and uninformed.
[0] https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20181018005247/en/Vis...
What ever this service of providing a token that you seem to feel superior for knowing the details is just a way for these SaaS type systems to continue to drain money from people. Netflix or any streaming platform is not a life or death service that users need. if they fail (intentionally or not) to keep the service updated with payment information, suspending the service is not going to cause anything but a bit of inconvenience. if you're so spoiled that you get upset at the suspension, then that's on you (royal you not lolinder). instead, we've built this system that makes it easier for the SaaS providers to continue using their dark patterns to siphon money which ensures the card companies their monthly fees as well. so while you may disagree with me calling it fraud, it does feel a lot like collusion between these parties rather than being a service for the consumer.
So since we cannot win against the dark patterns, they've now removed the sure fire way people had to protect themselves. But hey, it sure makes it convenient for them
https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/visa-accoun...
https://www.creditcards.com/education/recurring-charges-upda...
And regardless of the mechanism for the credit card updates, it's not fraud. Customers, Visa, banks, and merchants all benefit from removing the arbitrary hassle of keeping track of expiration dates and stolen card numbers.
Contrast to when I was a happy user of XM radio... I had sold one of my cars, and just wanted to remove one of 4 radios on the account. I get placed in a 40 minute hold queue, and when the rep couldn't talk me out of it, I was suddenly dropped from the call... mysterious eh. Well, the third time I was so pissed off I cancelled everything. I've had rather visceral feelings towards them ever since. If you ever deal with them, my own suggestion would be to use a one-time only card to setup the account. Of course, you're better off if you have good cell coverage just using spotify, youtube music or similar.
After not being able to find any email or conversation with the support I was able to log back in Netflix and get a history of charges to my credit cards, which is still stored in their system.
Dates are in DD/MM/YYYY format
A simple test would be to see what happens if you try to, today, try to watch something on Netflix. Does it allow you to start watching shows? Or does it ask you to do something like restart a subscription? What do you see today?
If you want something different, don't yell at some company that is only acting the way all companies act. Yell at your government for failing to make laws that protoize us, actual people, over business interests. Most businesses follow the laws most of the time, so if they are acting shitty it is because your government has shitty laws.