How too much daydreaming affected me
sunghoyahng.substack.com
sunghoyahng.substack.com
I think the main cause was actually under-stimulation: I was both very socially reclusive, and bored to death by schoolwork. I would guess that my brain was trying to compensate for the lack of social life and things to do by making up people and scenarios were stuff actually happens.
This tendency to constantly daydream faded away as I gained independance and entered adulthood. Since I had more stuff to do and more people to talk to. It kinda re-appeared during the 2020-2021 lockdowns, since boredom came back. I think I had almost forgot how it felt to intensely daydream at that point.
At this point I feel my imagination is very untrained, and since it is like a muscle, I need to practice somehow. But I believe the patterns I've instilled in my day-to-day, along with my anxieties around life have forced my imagination into a standstill. Unengaging forms of consumption, ADHD causing me to avoid stimulating tasks, anxiety guiding nearly all of my thoughts all come together to make me have no time or willingness to daydream anymore.
Can you doze at all, or is it always quick deep sleep? (would sound desirable)
Do you have or feel any impact, any disadvantages? Because sometimes a lot beyond the basic sleep is attributed to being able to dream?
I can't think of how it could be a disadvantage. I hear people have nightmares. I sure wouldn't want to experience those.
I also have zero emotional response to music. All music could cease to exist and I would be completely unaffected. I've always wondered if there is some connection between not dreaming and not having any sort of emotional response to music. Are the two in the same part of the brain?
Do the dream journal process regardless. It is totally fine to wake up, take out the dream journal, write "I had no dreams" and the date and call it an entry.
Try it, ideally two weeks, but give it at least ten days.
There's a really good (but not 100%) chance you do have dreams but just really don't recall them - but you may start to capture fragments by attempting to describe them first thing.
And it really does have to be first thing. Before you play with your phone or brush your teeth. As soon as you can move, grab and start writing.
I can also read which apparently isn't universal.
It's unclear if people getting proper sleep, but don't dream, exist.
It's very clear (to me) that people who dream all the time are getting proper sleep.
My mum had the same dream every night with someone chasing her. She would wake up the moment they caught her. I asked her to describe the surroundings then told her at which point I would enter and scare them off.
The next day she put up a face that explained everything. I laughed so hard.
Maybe you're just enjoying a sound sleep and waking at the "right" time.
I'm in a similar state to what you describe, I can only recall two dreams my entire life. I suspect my apnea disrupts dreaming.
Imagine that my mind like a glider. Glider is connected to a Cessna by a tether, but it's a magical tether that can disappear. In fact, it takes me active work to keep it connected, like I'm holding on to the end of the rope with my hands. The plane takes off and I'm following in lockstep about the main subject matter... looking down at the landscape below, to the left, to the right. After a quick climb, and at velocity, I've forgotten about keeping tethered, holy crud, I'm in the air! I want to bank, dive, maybe loop! What's over here? I can catch a thermal and go on forever depending on the landscape, but still often see more appealing currents and need to switch over. Oh wait, where did the plane go?
I think "spontaneity" is informed in large part by habit. If you teach a kid to build things, how to draw, read, etc, they might be more inclined to explore this out of their own volition.
I mostly daydreamed. I had crayons and paper, but was not compelled to use them that often. The Legos collected dust after I followed along with the schematics.
It's a neurological condition. I find it hard to believe this is learned.
Daydreaming when you're bored is normal.
Daydreaming, to some extent, is a natural and common human experience, and it can serve various functions, such as providing an escape from the mundane or offering a way to process emotions and desires. Your account sheds light on how changes in our environment and daily life can impact the frequency and intensity of daydreaming.
Interestingly, as we move out, we often change the set of people we interact with. Healthier or not, it does change the stimulus and environment in meaningful ways.
I agree with your thesis of under-stimulation. I wouldn't say I'm too reclusive, but social activities in general have been not particularly engaging, sometimes even a bit tiring.
“Just as some people work because they’re bored, I sometimes write because I have nothing to say. Daydreaming, which occurs naturally to people when they’re not thinking, in me takes written form, for I know how to dream in prose. And there are many sincere feelings and much genuine emotion that I extract from not feeling”
- Fernando Pessoa
“I hesitate in everything, often without knowing why. How often I’ve sought – as my own version of the straight line, seeing it in my mind as the ideal straight line – the longest distance between two points. I’ve never had a knack for the active life. I’ve always taken wrong steps that no one else takes; I’ve always had to make an effort to do what comes naturally to other people. I’ve always wanted to achieve what others have achieved almost without wanting it. Between me and life there were always sheets of frosted glass that I couldn’t tell were there by sight or by touch; I didn’t live that life or that dimension. I was the daydream of what I wanted to be, and my dreaming began in my will: my goals were always the first fiction of what I never was.”
Fernando Pessoa
“Inner Work” by Robert Johnson is a very approachable text. It focuses on using two technologies for personal growth: dream analysis and active imagination (basically day dreaming but you write it down and have a convo with your subconscious).
He warns the imagination one if you really get into it can be all consuming. Reminds me of MD as this guy is going thru it.
Might be worth talking to a Jungian therapist (or any therapist really). A Jungian might want to lean more onto the day dreaming to uncover a message if there is one as opposed to trying to “manage it”.
I daydreamed heavily when I was younger. A combination of isolation and ways to process hormones and unresolved trauma - what I discover many years later.
Some things that have helped a close friend get in the groove of staying present and reduce the frequency and duration of daydreaming: trying to meditate, focusing on the breath to stay present, making an effort to notice when they’re daydreaming and politely telling themselves things to the effect of “come back, the real world is here, not there”, and actively pursuing something interesting (because it’s hard to say no to an addiction unless there’s an engaging substitute).
I sat down at my old place in the classroom and looked out the window. When I saw the old tree in front of it, it immediately struck me:
How many hours must I have spent watching this tree and while dreaming away utterly bored by what was happening around me.
I found elementary and middle school particularly hard. I was always writhing inside, craving being anywhere else, daydreaming, drawing, anything but what I was expected to do. I must have lived a thousand imaginary lives inside those schools.
How I solved this? Well, not by myself. One of the topics of my daydreams was this girl that I was infatuated with. Long story short, we somehow get together, I realize that our relationship wasn't exactly going on the way I imagined it, we break up, I go through quite a depressive, suicidal period, I lose most of my friends. Completely unrelated, two years after I had to do a surgery which kinda grounded me more into reality. Since then, I rarely daydream, it is like my imaginary world was shattered by this moment. It is like I finally 'grew'.
Sounds familiar. Any chance she was of the cluster b type?
How do I see this, is there a test or something like that?
--- [0] I need to be very specific here: I do not think I was smarter than my classmates, or some special genius. I had just been afforded more of an educational foundation by that point in time.
I know many creatives/artists who harness such traits to their advantage. I suspect more people experience reality like this than would openly admit. This is what I understand as “privacy” in my own way.
ADHD was my diagnosis, what I learned is that for everyone with the disorder a completely different set of traits manifest themselves. Different experiences lead to different coping strategies, which in turn develop different personalities and values depending on the experiences with success/failures/traumas. Because of this treatments vary. For some it’s medication, for others it’s something else. Treatment is a big word too - what if along with the things you don’t like there are parts that make you who you are. You don’t want “treatment” to kill those off.
Hypervigilance, at least?
If nothing changes, nothing will change.
Medication very quickly showed me I was not a terrible person, but that I was suffering severely from mania and even more dangerous paranoia.
As I stabilized, everything that defined me was stripped away, leaving an empty husk. I very quickly realized as traumatic at this was, it was a start to healing and an enormous opportunity. During that process, I got to choose who I would become.
Now, a few years later, I'm happy with who I am and plan to keep improving. Medication has allowed me to sit down and focus on creative things instead of being overwhelmed and scared all the time.
I like to compare what happened to a paint clay pot being thrown at a wall. There was no “me” anymore. Shortly after that happened, I did the obvious thing. I sat down on the floor and gathered up all of the pieces. Then I sorted through them and decided which ones I liked. Then I looked at a few other pots to fill in the gaps. Then I glued it all back together, kind of like Kintsugi.
That’s the only approach I considered. Giving up or letting someone else take responsibility never occurred to me.
That meets the definition of brave to me, personally. My apologies if this disrespectful.
Good job, and respect.
Where is the threshold of significance for the trauma is the question. And it’s a philosophical one, really. Individual.
If something needs to change then yeah, have to work on that one. I don’t know about being “hyper vigilant” though - that doesn’t sound like a good life to be living.
There is no objective measure for ‘serious’ or not trauma, near as I can tell. It’s usually subjective measures like pain scales, or subjective judgements like level of dysfunction in daily life.
A veteran who physically attacks anyone wearing a uniform is a pretty easy diagnosis, compared to say an outwardly successful executive who has managed to hide his severe alcoholism. Both have issues.
Hypervigilance can also be known as ‘noticing things others don’t’, ‘being exceptionally very aware of others needs’, ‘being able to read people’s minds’, ‘seeing it coming before anyone else’, etc.
It’s adaptive when the environment has unpredictable and real threats. A soldier in a war zone who notices that twig snap in the background and wakes up is adaptively hyper vigilant. It can (and often does) keep him alive.
A leader (or follower) who notices their boss is going insane before it’s too late to get away, or that one of their folks is acting weird before they can betray the group? Similar.
The programmer who can’t get to sleep because they’re constantly trying to figure out why they think something is going wrong is maladaptively hyper vigilant.
But that could be because they aren’t being allowed to see what is wrong, not because there is nothing wrong. Or maybe it is because they’re overused to solving problems, and lack of a problem to solve is concerning.
It’s the state of always noticing what is going on around you and who is doing what, and frankly hyperfocus could be a part of it too.
That’s turning all that energy into what has been identified as the actual problem/threat (at the moment). Think tunnel vision.
Focus is nothing if not ‘removing undesired/confusing data from the picture’ after all.
Trauma reactions tend to be things like Hypervigilance, or complete tuning out/dissociation, or hyper aggressiveness (always fighting everything, even when it makes no sense), or extreme manipulation (as the threat was someone who could not be directly fought/won against). Each of these have corresponding disorders on various axis, though they aren’t called out as such near as I can tell.
I can see how this can relate to the very start, the OP. The tendency to daydream or creative trait as an overfit of sorts?
Interesting examples, can relate to IRL stuff going on for me ATM.
It can even be legitimately dangerous to try to remove it blindly, if the actual circumstances aren’t considered. Maybe they're on a bombsquad. Or live in Afghanistan.
Or things like exposure to it makes a lot of money, and they’ll have real consequences if their spending/financial obligations aren’t adjusted. Or rejection of what they're being exposed to will make them a target for punishment or death. Suddenly deciding to not be a killer/thug without having a really good exit strategy first isn't a good plan for a member of a violent gang.
Or a key relationship seems to/actually requires it, and it will cause worse problems if that isn’t addressed.
Adjusting the response, taking a closer and less pain driven look at it can give options and help adapt and reduce the pain.
Most folks seem to get into these states because they’re trying harder to make what they can see work, and ignoring the pain (or can’t figure out why they’re feeling pain for various reasons). The trauma reaction is so severe it is getting them stuck through it's side effects.
For extreme creativeness (perhaps due to a need to escape a terrible environment), maybe it could be ‘losing the muse’, and hence their ability to earn a living or be famous or whatever their goal is.
For extreme aggressiveness, (perhaps due to a need to fight back against constant physical threats), it could mean losing a job or being killed/replaced if a real threat shows up - say if someone is a professional fighter, soldier, cop, gang member/leader, etc.
For extreme avoidance or manipulation (due to say an overpoweringly powerful threat in childhood), it could mean picking a direct fight they definitely won’t win.
For example, a NEET trying to go out into the world after a decade of isolation cold turkey, or a traumatized child of a powerful business magnate trying to recognize what he's dealing with, or a hapless middle manager pushing back against an experienced (but toxic) executive. They are NOT going to have a good time if they don’t take a nuanced approach. And a nuanced approach is exactly what is hardest with a non-adaptive trauma response.
Techniques like CBT can help untangle the confused thoughts and figure out how much can be dialed back or let go of and how much is worth/needs to be kept.
It allows the maladaptive to start to become adaptive.
Interestingly, CBT is about as effective against ADHD as it is with PTSD/Trauma.
EMDR might also worth considering based on what seems to be coming up, as it is quite effective with Trauma but hasn’t been well explored for ADHD near as I can tell.
Edit: I actually looked up EMDR for ADHD, and while not applicable with some co-morbidities, I definitely am not the only one starting to notice this connection. It is indeed promising in many cases [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9961224/#:~:tex....]
I'm surprised not to see consideration of this as a biochemical phenomenon (beyond the reductive "everything in the brain is biochemical") -- I wonder if an anatomical or signal/chemical oddity could put someone in a state where they're predisposed to switch on the dreaming/imagining circuits in the middle of tasks, almost like a very odd flavor of narcolepsy (which, among other causes, is commonly associated with the immune system destroying cells that produce a likely wakefulness-signalling protein).
So playing out scenarios in your head, essentially. Might sound harmless - there is no question of confusing these daydreams with reality - but you can find yourself retreating into the same ones again and again in a loop, especially when triggered by alcohol or music. I could put on my favourite songs and fantasize literally for hours, replaying the emotions. Endlessly scratching an endless itch. Obviously this might not be conducive with a productive life! I guess it would serve one well in solitary confinement.
I used to think everyone was like this, but it seems quite rare. I don't seem to have a bad case of it, I certainly wouldn't dream of trying to medicate it. But it does make me feel bad about myself sometimes when I overdo it.
Here's an article on it that may clarify more: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/aug/28/i-just-go-in...
Most of my daydreams involve staring out the office window thinking of hiking a trail in a distant locations.
Sometimes I will listen to music and imagine how I might incorporate such a feeling into a movie if I was a director... but I am never a character in the movie, like in your daydreams. I just think about what a great story would be like for viewers to watch.
I have a really shitty internal sense of self, though.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/CivCEO-Lit-Accidental-Champion-Book-e...
Most of my daydreams are world-building too, over time I’ve “built” cities, countries, continents, governments in my dream ecosystem. Like playing SimCity with daydreams.
> Most of my daydreams are world-building too, over time I’ve “built” cities, countries, continents, governments in my dream ecosystem. Like playing SimCity with daydreams.
Yeeeaaah, there's a lot of geology and fictional politics in my maladaptive daydreaming.
And so it is akin to telling a person who suffers from real, clinical depression, to "just not be depressed". It's tautological advice.
As for the nature of these daydreams; Understand that it's a general condition. The author's daydreams are likely all over the place, everything at once. My own rapidly change just like a real dream, from happy to sad over and over.
It's not like the author is fixated on buying some dream car or living in a big house. There is an element of compulsive fixation on general daydreaming which can be extremely hard to overcome whenever it is caused by actual disorders in brain structure. For example, ADHD is characterized by a number of gene mutations which lead to reduced number of dopamine receptors throughout the brain. [0]
There is no psychological way to just "get over" this. What needs to happen is society needs to accept that these are real disabilities and it can be just as rude telling someone who has an extreme case "don't dream it, be it," as it is to tell someone with general intellectual disabilities to just "study harder". Then maybe we can stop leaving otherwise very intelligent individuals behind to suffer in lifelong economic and psychological disparity.
I’ve seen people get more functional - then be immediately attacked by said NPD person (indirectly) through gaslighting and sabotage, which of course put them back where they were. ‘The meds stopped working’.
Or maybe it was the meds stopped working - except for what I saw going on, at least.
Always told myself things would get better once I got out of the situation; instead I found out the worst symptoms of my mental disorders were simply being masked by external factors.
I recently broke down for an entire day after a judgemental encounter with someone, and learned about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, that I have had it for my entire life and that almost all ADHD sufferers experience it at least once. Just learning about it really helped change my perspective and gave me a way to move forward.
Having had multiple run-ins with narcissists over the years, including my mom, I've had a habit of letting myself get harmed and being trapped by guilt or some misplaced loyalty. Now I know the (at least in part) the source of this habit and can change it.
https://www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-an...
If someone was neglected or attacked by a caregiver when they approached them for help, especially if it was infrequent, and repeatedly told they weren’t allowed to feel bad about it/it wasn’t happening/if it was happening it was all their fault, and suffered significant distress because of it - how else would it present?
Especially if it was at an age where they couldn’t process or verbalize what was going on, and the parent was one they couldn’t reject themselves (because they needed them or they’d be orphans or whatever).
If RSD is really due to emotional neglect/rejection based Complex PTSD underlying the whole thing. It would make a lot of sense.
At the time, I had undiagnosed OCD. And, it turns out, the medicine which I was being given against my will for an ADHD diagnosis I received at age 5, was causing me to experience dry mouth, which made me instinctually suck on the buttons and corners of my shirt. Mystery solved. But two therapists and years of punishment didn't figure that out. I did, in my adulthood.
I had the same experience with uncontrollable, hour-long bouts of laughter which would end in vomiting and extreme stomach pain. Punished for them, told I was just trying to get attention. Turns out that was an expression of OCD. And dozens of other things not worth mentioning. The older I got, the more I came to appreciate the level of misunderstandings about my issues which led to even more violence inflicted upon me.
So that is a possible avenue of explanation for why RSD and ADHD seem to be correlated. After speaking with some friends who have borderline disorder (I don't have this, but I do have bipolar disorder type II) it seems to be something they have experienced as well. And a great deal of BPD cases involve trauma.
There is little doubt that something chemical is taking place given that specific gene mutations seem to cause these disorders, or at least predispositions to them. I'm sure that there is a correlation between RSD and the dopamine reuptake issues which characterize ADHD. But the feedback systems in nature vs nurture mean that these disorders can cause problems which themselves exacerbate the disorders or cause new symptoms to present.
That would definitely make a lot of sense.
You are never taught how to properly tend to the emotions of both yourself and others, so unless you pair with an emotionally well-adjusted partner, you will lack the emotional knowledge required to teach your children better. And what's worse, your brain will relapse into the habits it does have experience, which may often be negative.
And boom, we have the wheel and the multigenerational cycle of abuse.
Highly recommend to be radically honest and natural about everything. Every time you get a piece of info about yourself aka natural feedback will immediately enlighten you and help you expand your perspective and move forward.
It's a bit counter-intuitive because so many of us are taught to hold thoughts, words and actions back, but once I stopped doing that, things started to improve massively.
I watched non-ADHD people attempt the same but none of them evolved (my sample is small, 40+ people, I don't have notes on all of them). So far, the only difference I could find, was ADHD-pattern-recognition + that weird ADHD-Naïvité <3
And they will often actively lie to you or manipulate you if they know you’ll take what they say seriously and uncritically. There are many, many ways to do this.
Many ADHD folks are people pleasers, and NPD folks will actively use those people’s tendencies to destroy them and grin while doing it. I’ve seen it, it’s deeply disturbing.
Open and honest communication is great, with those capable of the same. Doing it with someone who is pathological is a recipe for disaster.
It’s possible to survive, but not until they’ve been fed through the meat grinder a few times and potentially after suffering more pain than you can possibly imagine.
Linking the people-pleasing to RSD and thus ADHD recently was a massive eye-opener. And the connection between people-pleasing and cutting people off as two sides of the same emotional spectrum.
Being overly honest to someone who is actually a problem is one of the common behaviors, as is forgetting some/all of their actual problematic behavior when they 'get better' so as to preserve the important seeming relationship.
"However, later on, repeated instances of abuse and maltreatment generate a cognitive shift in the victim's mind: that preventing the abuse is in their power. By the time the inescapability of the abuse becomes apparent, the emotional trauma bond is already strong.[12]"
Being fully authentic and honest (regardless of the circumstances) is essentially narcissist bait. And it works. It's giving up power to an external authority (in many ways), because it's saying 'here are all my cards, do with them as you will'.
It also works well when not in a predatory environment.
But 'normal' folks don't do this except in very specific, highly trusting environments, most likely because they know the consequences if they do it otherwise. And very few environments are actually not predatory (as in, have no portion of real or hidden predators).
And at the beginning, narcissists WILL make things better when they have someone like that around. They got their supply, and the love bombing, extreme gratitude, etc. will all help make EVERYTHING feel amazing. At a job, they may get promoted (but not too high), or get raises (but not enough for them to not need the job or be a threat), etc.
However, at some point dysregulation of one or both parties starts to happen (or one or both parties starts getting bored), and then that gets turned around and the shit starts, and then any authenticity or honesty gets used against the target while the NPD person denies all responsibility, DARVO's, etc.
It shows how interactions between these different kinds of people play out given different population distributions.
As an adult it's pain coping - I have multiple sclerosis and of course I don't want to be present in my body: It HURTS here. I am also poor (see: disability) + in my 30s with no kids, so not much of a social life or benefit from being present.
I spend most/all of my time at least somewhat disassociated. It's my default state.
> Interestingly, the MD paradox points towards an unintended consequence of ADHD treatment - it could potentially amplify daydreaming, a peculiar side-effect I noticed while medicated with methylphenidate. In essence, ADHD medication might turbocharge MD.
This isn’t a paradox, and it doesn’t necessarily rule out ADHD as an underlying cause/exacerbating factor. Hyperfocus is a common ADHD symptom; said hyperfocus can be fixated on just about anything, yes even daydreaming; stimulants used to treat ADHD symptoms like lack of focus can reinforce unwanted hyperfocus, it’s an unfortunate side effect.
One tip I heard that seems to work pretty consistently: leave some work unfinished at the end of the day. Whatever you're working on at the end of the day, leave the last one or two tasks almost finished, as in, leave only a few minutes of work left. Say writing some comments to document code, writing a detailed commit message of what you're working on, maybe renaming the functions or variables to something more meaningful before you commit, etc.
The next day you can easily convince yourself, "well I might as well take a minute or two to finish off these one or two trivial things", and now you're in "focused on work" mode and that's often enough momentum to keep going.
If you want to get a project from 0% to 90% I'm your guy. 90% to 100%? Brutal.
This is a tactic in addition to some usual means of tracking tasks, like a TODO list.
Me too. In the last year or so I’ve been crazy about hydrology, climate, and nutrition. I can’t really do anything with any of what I learn, but I love learning more. But my diet is fine, I don’t do anything with hydrology, the climate is well beyond my sphere of control. What the hell am I doing? I’m glad (kind of) that I’m not alone.
Which, interestingly, ADHD meds can help do.
Near as I can tell, ADHD symptoms have an absurd amount of overlap with Complex PTSD [https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-traumatic-s...], especially when the complex PTSD was caused by repeated childhood exposure to someone with Narcissitic Personality Disorder that wouldn't let them see the source/cause of the actual problems causing them their pain.
Additionally, narcissistic abuse produces symptoms which are VERY similar to what adult ADHD folks present with. [https://www.charliehealth.com/post/the-long-term-effects-of-...]
Between developmental theories of ADHD, complex PTSD, and even going back to old foundational texts (Karen Horney's Neurosis and Human Growth from 1950 was great) – I've found a lot of alignment on the theories of childhood abuse and neglect that lead to developmental disorders, in my case ADHD and depression.
As a child you have no basis for understanding what's wrong, or that the pain you feel is unusual. It's been a lot to process, and I'm not sure what to do with it yet, but at the very least it helps alleviate the weight of my rocky adulthood being "all my fault".
Almost all of those diagnosed with ADHD/ADD do indeed still have the brain structure differences forever.
However, almost all adults get better (as in no longer have clinically significant symptoms). They rewire. They still experience some of what is going on, but they’ve found ways to cope, or environments that fit them better, or have learned things that let them avoid the issues,
Which is, basically what we’re talking about CPTSD wise, no?
[https://chadd.org/adhd-weekly/grow-out-of-adhd-not-likely/].
I think that you’re saying and what it is saying are equivalent in both cases (without much squinting required), just using different terms for the same real-world situations.
I’m also wondering if it’s also possible that the three sub-types of ADHD are attachment style related due to the ways of coping.
Inattentive being avoidant, Hyperactive being anxious, and Combined type being disorganized (a mix of the two with no particular balance/with confusion - which would happen when there was no consistent pattern of avoidance or over-attention that worked).
Social Media was a much bigger problem for me. Which I got rid of after reading Deep Work.
And I, from my childhood have had, what is often called "directional disorientation". Everyone who knows me considers me smart, I have achievements to demonstrate that. But, I can never remember how to navigate to an address. It takes me about 6-7 times navigating via Google Maps before I can visit it without Maps.
I am sometimes confused about some streets of my home town!
I don't have problem focusing for longer times. I can work hard and learn quickly, but familiarity with physical spaces has always eluded me.
Edit: Over the years, I have talked with at least half a dozen people on the internet who told me that they believe that they have this thing, if it is a thing.
This phenomenon does not occur if I'm reading a physical piece of media, like a book.
I also emphasize with the "louder" thing. Uninteresting things aren't as loud as my thoughts so I have to make an effort to suppress them.
Rankly speculating-- there's some extremely painful emotion the author is avoiding by opting for daydream over engaging with whatever is going on in reality.
Edit: perhaps not 100% of the daydreams. I mean, sometimes humans really are bored. But it's very likely in some of these contexts, the author has a decent idea of what they want to do in reality and are specifically avoiding it to avoid some painful emotion that goes with whatever potential negative consequence could come from their action.
With this many daydreams that are this disruptive, seems very likely they're protecting the author from something. (Or they protected the child version of the author and continue their "job" of protecting into adulthood where they've become a hindrance.)
Food for thought indeed. Any ideas how to break out of that?
The author has already explicitly stated how big a problem this is for them. That's a really good start.
It sounds like the author is making these realizations all after the fact. The next step would be to notice what's happening right before they go into daydream mode. This is difficult and takes a lot of practice/failures. That basically works against a coping mechanism they've apparently had their entire life. So the things they are coping with come into the foreground, and doing that can be scary and extremely disruptive. Therapist recommended for this step.
Finally, there's a way to look for comfy little toy problems to practice making a decision to do something other than the daydreaming. Things that are low risk and high reward. Imagine a vacation where your train departing while another goes the opposite direction, and you suddenly realize your deep desire is to tell the guy in the other train, "Hey, you're not allowed to smoke in there!" Bam-- perfect toy problem. You'll never see them again, and you can spend a bunch of time after that seeing what it felt like to say the thing that daydreaming prevented. But to get there you've got to be aware of the opportunity, and that takes time and practice.
For me, the primary trigger is music (both audio and video). If I am listening to it, the day dreaming kicks in and it's too much to handle. As a software engineer this is a pain in the ass to say the least...
The only thing to help me was completely cutting off my triggers. I had to cut out music completely as well as remove Youtube from my workflow (no music, podcasts, passive listening, etc). I had to make additional cuts to other triggers as well... the only thing that helps is a complete cut off.
Edit: I recommend buying some ear plugs and using those instead of headphones or airpods...
Or at least I did. My symptoms lessened gradually over the years as I got older. I had it much less at 22 years old compared to 12 years old.
But I wouldn't have it differently. My mind wandering is (or was) the most important thing about me, and constitute who I am. I wouldn't want to become a different person. Then again, it doesn't take me an hour to change clothes.
An extreme example is that "call of the void" feeling one gets when standing beside a large drop. Is it daydreaming to engage with this feeling in this scenario, or is it an intuitive way to reinforce positive decisions?
You'd find it an impossible feat to put together an adult subject group that excludes the PTSD variable, or a child group that includes it. Psychologists will find it impossible to use PTSD in differential diagnosis, given its frequency for ADHD (and autistic) individuals.
I wish I could have shaken him out of it.
Read somewhere that listening to music can trigger MD, is that the case for you? (Do you get less MD if you don't listen to music that day?)
- Why Day Dreams Get In Your Way (33 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gw6gLBPvA8
- Your Constant Daydreaming Can Be Hurting Your Mental Health (42 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUSi9tzdNiE
Well I feel seen today. At times in my youth I seriously questioned whether I had schizophrenia... but I never developed the symptoms.
What I do have seems to be a mixture of OCD-related intrusive thoughts and a serious problem with daydreaming/dissociation that severe ADHD thus far has seemed to acceptably explain. But ADHD doesn't explain the deep daydreaming and sudden talking out loud, entire days spent in a catatonic state, etc.
> For instance, remembering routes or even simple details like the layout of a frequently visited place demands active processing from me
People have definitely commented on my trouble remembering recently taken routes... always just hard to know how common this. A general sense of navigation seems to make up for it but it takes many, many trips for me to not get lost when I move to a new location.
> Even simple tasks, which involve a few steps (like taking medicine or changing clothes), can turn into a time-consuming endeavor due to the interruptions caused by daydreaming
Most definitely, and again the presence of ADHD makes this difficult to isolate and understand. I mean, all of these these are definitely potential symptoms of ADHD. It just seems to not be the usual case for people I meet with ADHD. It becomes extremely difficult making friends, even ones with ADHD, understand what I go through. Most write it off as me being dramatic about everyday experiences that everyone has, not understanding the acute or chronic nature of the symptoms.
A friend recently told me I paid too much attention to diagnoses, but I have had these diagnoses for my entire life and they affect me in such an extreme way that the only progress I have made has been with deep, thorough medical research about my conditions. Even past childhood therapists totally misunderstood these conditions and sometimes made things worse.
> Similarly, changing clothes can take more than an hour. Sometimes, I don't manage to complete the task at all.
Yeah, and for me at least there is often an element of PTSD from childhood and early adulthood trauma which guides these daydreams, and it honestly sounds like the case for the author here, if I had to wager a guess I'd assume most of these daydreams are rooted in either some kind of direct trauma, or a some desire which is propelled by a hidden underlying trauma.
> For clarity, it's important to underline that MD-affected individuals can clearly differentiate between reality and daydreams.
Unfortunately, my experience has been that trying to relate the experience of compulsive daydreaming or other extreme facets of ADHD only come across as unhinged to others, especially when you mention things like the radio in your brain you just cannot turn off which interrupts every other thought, or how you might randomly laugh or respond out loud to an imagined conversation in your head.
For my part, I am a lifelong lucid dreamer with the ability to modify my dreams, and also suffer from frequent sleep paralysis. In general I have had extreme insomnia my entire life, which leads to a false sort of narcolepsy throughout the day. Last night I got maybe an hour of sleep in total, 10 minute increments followed by an hour of tossing and turning in between. I would be surprised if these things are not all related.
Stress also definitely seems to affect this condition. This past week has been immensely stressful and I spent several hours today on my floor just totally in another world.
I do a light routine 3-4x a week. I also keep a pull-up bar a few feet from my desk and hit it all day, along with a couple minutes of pushups/squats/etc during some work breaks. Keeping up with it can be extremely hard due to ADHD and some external life factors. This includes flexibility training. Just about the only thing I don't do is run often, due to chronic sciatica and flat feet. Still having a hard time with my weight because apparently a chronic lack of sleep can cause your daily fat loss to cut in half or more. [0] I'm already eating around 1500 calories a day and still at a weight plateau. I do take vitamins. But the exercise still helps, endorphins are great.
Any suggestions? What works for you?
Oh dear... that's not how executive function disorders work. It's not lack of focus, it's an inability to direct focus.
It's just that most of these people think meditation will solve the problem, not realizing that ADHD
- makes it harder to even begin meditating than for the average person
- makes it harder to stick with the habit
- makes it harder to actually do because the mind is racing as a default and not because of stresses
- only treats the symptoms and does not cure them
I have MD but not ADHD and I know my MD is directly trauma related: My earliest memories of my MD from age 4 or 5 involved me being adopted by/having loving caregivers.
Autism has seeming yet superficial symptomatic crossover with schizophrenia to the point that only a professional, or otherwise someone skilled at differential diagnosis, could discern the difference.
>What I do have seems to be a mixture of OCD-related intrusive thoughts and a serious problem with daydreaming/dissociation that severe ADHD thus far has seemed to acceptably explain.
Autism explains these.
>But ADHD doesn't explain the deep daydreaming and sudden talking out loud, entire days spent in a catatonic state, etc.
ADHD-PI would explain daydreaming. A habit of talking out loud can be due to isolated lifestyle and / or stress. Altogether, it reads as a possibility of autism (formerly known as Asperger's).
At a certain point, these disorders are descriptions of patterns of behavior and I'm sure there is overlap between the conditions which contribute to autism and ADHD, both genetically and environmentally.
I've intensely daydreamed and talked aloud to myself as long as I can remember. Extremely visual and aural thinker. Had OCD tics my entire life, first one I can remember is when I was 5, I couldn't stop swallowing and it was causing my throat to bleed and leaving me unable to even speak a sentence. The therapist I was sent to completely failed to catch the OCD at the time, and she actually ended up in prison for forging her license so I stopped going to her.
Well, now I feel seen.
This thread has been super helpful to me.
I’m probably 20x faster since it stops the day dreaming.
We don't do any of that anymore. It has helped me to study the effects of electronics on the nervous system. Many of our automatic behaviours can be supercharged by electronics.
I meant the Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennet crowd who were very forward with their views about how religion kills people and is responsible for many violent acts and bad things, and the general combative sense, how Hitchens would push forward an argument (particularly with Islamic people).
It is difficult to go on daydreaming about things when imminent threats like that appear to be clear and present dangers.
Total idiot move on my behalf to just leave that comment without further qualification.