Comment by jf | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jf | Hacker News Reader

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Sure! This is actually a good reminder that I should write something more in-depth on this topic, since most of what I think I know is based in large parts on oral-history with some conjecture.

Lisp Machines started at MIT, some of that code is actually available online now (http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/mit/mit_cadr_lmss.html). That software became the basis of two companies: Symbolics and then later, Lisp Machines Inc (LMI). This Wikipedia entry does a good job at explaining the impact this part of history had on RMS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_Machines#Folklore_about_LM...

So, here is where the history of Genera is non-existent or murky. Yes, you can download a torrent of Genera. But how do you obtain a legal license Genera? Who actually owns the IP to Genera?

In learning the answers to those questions, I was left with even more respect for RMS and an amusing, if not ironic, anecdote showing how his vision for the future turned out to be correct.

> How do you obtain a legal license Genera?

You purchase a copy of Open Genera for the DEC Alpha for $5000 from David Schmidt.

> Who actually owns the IP to Genera?

John Mallery (http://www.csail.mit.edu/user/926). He's the most recent owner. Before he got the IP, it was owned by a series of law firms and ex-Symbolics employees.

Why do I find this this amusing? Well, the software that RMS worked so hard to protect and that ultimately helped "inspire" him to start GNU has been relegated to the footnotes of history. Meanwhile, GNU software is used on millions of machines.

Lisp Machines started at Xerox and MIT. The MIT project was started in the mid 70s. Much of the funding for Lisp at MIT came from DARPA (aka ARPA) in the context of enabling technology for modern software for the military. The MIT AI Lab projects in general were largely funded by DARPA. For some information about the later funding see this book: Strategic Computing, DARPA and the Quest for Machine Intelligence, 1983-1993 http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&...

When the research created the first usable prototypes of hardware (the Lisp Machines and other stuff) and software (expert systems, ...) DARPA wanted to commercialize it to create a market which then could serve their needs. So licenses of the Lisp Machine design were sold to LMI, Symbolics and later TI. DARPA financed also the users. Many machines were funded to be bought by university projects. Much of the early Lisp Machines were sold to the SDI project (strategic defense initiative, a pet child of Ronald Reagan in the cold war, the space deployed missile defense system).

Stallman's role in that scenario is relatively tiny. He worked on software and when some of the stuff he was using was about to be commercialized (in the above context), he protested against it. DARPA's mission was not to develop free Lisp software, but to develop battle management systems, logistics software, diagnosis software for complex military equipment, assistents/trainers for fighter pilots, missile guidance software, ...

Stallman fought for free software, but he was working in a government funded lab, where the funders (DARPA) had a very different mission. The 'hacker spirit' at the lab was more of an accident, attracting creative people to develop the next generation of software and hardware. For the military and other government agencies, with commercial spin offs.

As mentioned the SDI initiative was using this technology. But there were several others. One of the biggest wins was DART, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Analysis_and_Replanning...

Stallman developed a lot of GNU software, but the goal of a new Lisp environment was given up early. For the initial goals see the GNU manifesto: http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html

> a pet child of Ronald Reagan in the cold war

Funny side note: In the AI Lab, the names of the Symbolics machines started as dead rock stars. (Sinatra too, I think.) After they ran out of those, dead movie stars were used for names. RR was not too popular in those parts (he was president at the time), so he was one of the machine names too.

It was all fun and games until some D/ARPA reviewers walked through the machine room and put it together.

> You purchase a copy of Open Genera for the DEC Alpha for $5000 from David Schmidt.

LOL. Great, anyone got a spare Alpha lying around?

> This Wikipedia entry does a good job at explaining the impact this part of history had on RMS

I'm looking at this line: "Unfortunately this openness would later lead to accusations of intellectual property theft."

That doesn't really capture the acrimony iirc. I was just a youngin' at the time, but I remember overhearing rms get a phone call; I believe it was from someone at the Symbolics legal team. They were trying to explain to him how he had violated something-or-another because he built some LISP feature from scratch.

They went round in circles for a while, finally rms tired of the conversation and ended it. It was a very bizarre conversation for an academic environment like the AI Lab.

>LOL. Great, anyone got a spare Alpha lying around?

IIRC, there's a Linux version that owners of Open Genera for the DEC Alpha are allowed to download.

there are Alpha emulators.

So there are. Thanks to you and stray for pointing this out.

I wonder how much of a community bounty it would take for John Mallery to open source it.

I tried to contact him to ask that exact question. He didn't answer my email.

I've thought of just calling him. But I'm intimidated of him to be honest. He wrote the webserver that ran whitehouse.gov during the Clinton administration, I can barely program in Lisp.

Maybe getting an AI lab person to do it (early Akamaite or maybe a MIT faculty member?) would be helpful.

What is the worst thing that can happen? I know they are called Lisp ninjas, but they are 40-50-60 year old guys with neck beards...

I think "ignoring it due to being overworked or misaddressed" is the most likely -- and if it's either, try fedex/ups mailing a physical item (like a book or other gift, or food, or whatever -- something which doesn't fit in an envelope, and which is obviously nice enough that 1) dude feels guilt if he doesn't respond and 2) intermediaries will try to pass it along.

I've used this trick quite successfully ($20-50 items from appropriate gift vendors -- Cabelas for outdoor type people, gourmet food vendors for other people).

It's like the next-level of conference schwag.

You're probably right. I'll bet I'm over thinking this. I like the idea of sending him something nice. I'll do that.

Are you sure it's John Mallery that's the current owner now? He's not that hard to get a hold of.

No, I'm not sure. That's what David Schmidt told me a year or so ago when I bought my MacIvory from him.

It seems very plausible though, given John's background.

Also, someone should make an AMI of this. Lisp machine by the hour :)

In that case history really does repeat, rather than only rhyme.

>>This is actually a good reminder that I should write something more in-depth on this topic

I would love to read it. Please post it to HN if you ever get to it, I think a lot of people (including me) are interested in the concepts and ideas behind Genera and other Lisp machines.

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