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Comment by deaddodo | Hacker News Reader

Open offices are the literal reason (after commuting/traffic) that I no longer want to go into the office. My work doesn't require a ton of person:person engagement and it's much easier for me to just zone out in my own headspace to do it.

When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions, but I would have to deal with 2-3hrs of driving/day on top of it. This meant that my employer generally only got those 8hrs out of me, period; because I had none of my personal time to spare. Working from home, on the other hand, gives me more flexibility for meetings, to work at different hours, to be on later in the evening, to put in more time (when needed), etc; and I'm happier.

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I remember the first time I was in an open office. I was flabbergasted. We'd all get on a call so we could talk to some remote vendor. Other people would have their mics on, so I'd hear my own voice repeated and delayed through the Zoom call. I could barely talk, and barely hear anyone. It was a self-evidently terrible decision that everyone was just going along with. Sometime later we were moved to a different open office space. It was deafeningly loud in there, and I eventually discovered that there was a white noise machine on the ceiling above every single employees head. Apparently this was meant to help with the open office design, but it did the opposite: much like a busy cafeteria, everyone had to shout over top the all the extra noise in the room. (the combined sound of about 100 white noise speakers + the sound of about 100 employees talking or working) Again, such a stupid decision I can barely understand how someone could set it up this way. I eventually just waited 'til no one was around and unplugged most of the speakers. It was a huge improvement, and no one complained.

This is both hilarious and terrifying at the same time. Thanks for being a hero.

Paradoxically the only person thanking the parent for going through this shit might be an anonymous commenter on an Internet forum...

Open offices are terrible. Management knows they are as well because Sr. leadership almost always have their own offices. The peons sit in the pit. Until the CEO is sitting next to everyone else they are all speaking lies when preaching the benefits of an open office. The only benefit is that its cheaper and they can keep an eye on you.

Ahh my employer does this. The founding CEO had his desk over by the front door, and back in those days we all sat in the same big room.

We have multiple big rooms now but the current CEO still has his desk out in the open. Last time I was in the office we talked about anime lol.

There is one model even worse: when leadership claims that they too sit in the open office like everyone else … only to take up a big meeting room all day as if it is their personal office, causing the actual meetings booked there to have to move to the middle of the open space, making everyone an unwilling meeting participant.

There is an exception to this observation about senior management: Andy Grove used to sit in a cubicle. It was a big cubicle in a labyrinth of his assistants' cubicles.

It didn't make cubicle farms any better though.

There's an exception to almost everything. Intel was a famous exception on cubicles for upper management; the CEO had a cubicle just like normal employees (except the CEO's was bigger and not accessible from the aisle of course). The CEO also didn't have his own special floor, special bathroom, special elevator, etc.

it's a millennial thing. they grew up working on laptops and their dream office is to make the workplace look like starbucks. Open seating, no cubicles, a barista. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the old office place standard of 'cubes'. Managers hire out to consultants that hype this type of office layout because it will supposedly attract a talent.

To be fair, cubes weren't any better. I remember having a guy slerping tea sitting across from me. I couldn't see him but I could sure hear him and there was no way for me to get up and move.

I don't know. I'm certainly not a millennial and I've never had any real issue with ambient coffee shop or equivalent background when reading/working/etc. and I'm rarely putting earphones/headphones on or playing music in general. People probably just have different tolerances and types of tolerances for distraction--not sure how generational it is.

As I've said before, people here pine for private offices a lot but, in my experience, typical workplace private offices have tended to be door open by default absent private meetings/phone calls/some urgent deadline thing.

Even with the door open, it still blocks a lot of ambient sound. Sound also isn’t the only problem with open offices. The other problem is with visual distractions. It’s hard not to interrupt your work whenever the constant stream of people pass by, especially when they greet you

It’s more a new way to cut costs further. Plenty of boomer leadership hopped on the open office trend despite plummeting employee productivity and satisfaction

Rigghht... It's the millenials, not like corpos haven't been doing this for decades. As soon as there were cubicles, there were people rejecting them.

See SC Johnson HQ for one of the most famous versions of this. (https://youtu.be/yb-kYt1lpnI)

For sure, and like he says near the beginning of that video, "Most employees have moved to other buildings." I've been in some of those other buildings and guess what, they're almost entirely private offices... no open office plan.

They learned their lesson from the Frank Lloyd Wright building. It's a wonderful piece of architectural history, but it's not wonderful for productivity.

He doesn't mention one of the most interesting things about that building -- the building has no square corners, everything is round (even the elevator).

> To be fair, cubes weren't any better.

Cubes, with hot-desking, is pretty great actually. IBM has it in their drop-in “business centers” for WFH employees.

I unironically miss my cube. They were natural sound breaks and sound absorbing so you could talk and not intrude horrifically on people adjacent. I had a place for my things so I didn't have to shuttle them in and out every day. I had a phone that worked, an Ethernet jack that was not temperamental, and a whiteboard that was ready to go. I also had a few different ways I could sit at my cube so I wouldn't get the same pains I get sitting in an open office plan because there is no way to customize anything for comfort in many cases. I have seriously considered packing a drill and a set of bits to tear off idiot things like keyboard trays (when nobody has an external keyboard) but I am resisting only just.

In a moment of clarity the real thing about open office plans is that most times when you show up it has the vibe of a floor being fired and everyone's desk wiped clean. There are no remnants of those who are there, no photos of family or the odd dollar store fun thing that kicks around a desk, every desk is wiped clean more austere than a hospital room.

Speaking as a millennial: open offices were there when we got there! If we did anything it was to keep hybrid/WFH arrangements where we could.

It has absolutely nothing to do with millennials.

I would definitely prefer good cubicles over open assigned desks. (I mean, with open desks or cubicles, I would ask the other person to stop slurping loudly.)

But "good" is the key there. I worked at an office in 2001 which had a cubicle system that was probably only a year or two old. The desks were wood (probably veneer) with nice big keyboard shelves, as was the style at the time. The panels were either grey metal or red fabric, and they stepped up and down so that beside your close coworker there might be only a 4' wall, and then a 6' wall to the "hallway".

Immediately after that, through an acquisition, we were in an office whose cubicles were probably from the 80s, and they were all 6' well-worn beige fabric panels, which despite being private and relatively quiet were just so ugly and energy-draining.

Hmm, I think it’s more a managerial thing than a millennial thing. I don’t know a single millennial that wants to sit in open floorplan offices. Just because something happened when our generation entered the workforce doesn’t mean we were the driving force for it. Maybe millennials also caused climate change, as far as I know that started becoming a recognized problem around the time we were born. Expensive housing is on us too.

The open office trend happened before millennials started having careers, open offices are always an economic choice. It's cheaper to cram more people into less space.

Open office look great! Just like TV. I don't think I've ever seen an office environment that has not been open on TV. A TV show with everyone in a private office would not work, no drama!

But to work in them is a noisy hell. I had a lawyer friend talk about how great these open offices must be to work in. So productive and dynamic he would say. But of course this is coming from a profession where having a private office is an absolute requirement.

> When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions

Sometimes I just want silence. Not music, not $color noise. I also get itchy ears after wearing headphones for hours on end, and noise canceling headphones give me a headache… or, you know, I could work wherever I prefer, with little to no commute, and an office arranged how I like it.

Yup, this too. Half the time I had headphones on, I didn't even have them playing anything. I just had ANC turned on to muffle the background noise (and deter people who didn't actually needy assistance with anything). But I definitely had ear stink/itch at the end of most days.

Ear stink... I never knew my ears smelled so bad before I started using airpod pros!

Started getting chronic ear infections after using headphones for long hours.

In my anecdotal experience, it’s important to take of headphones every now and then to prevent moisture from accumulating in the ear canal. That moisture is unnatural and id probably very nice for various germs.

The worst place I worked I needed industrial earplugs, then chuck white noise on top of that to get almost distraction free. The way to get the desired peace was to leave

I used to do that but then every 15 minutes some coworker would tap me on the shoulder to ask some inane question, and I would spend 5 minutes taking things out of my ears before I could hear them. Fun (not).

I see it as a fairness and reasonableness issue. It’s unfair and unreasonable that the ones polluting the space with noise are the ones that get to enjoy the freedom to use the space without restrictions, while the victims of the noise are the ones that suffer the restriction of the full use of the same space. The same with smoking, which fortunately has been recognised to some extent in recent years.

Cheaper noise cancelling headphones would make me nauseous, however I got the Sony WH-1000XM5 headphones with 8 external mics to sample the surrounding noise and it was a game changer, super high quality, no more nausea.

I tried the Bose something something and it gave me pressure headaches and a feeling of having a clogged nose.

The headphones thing reminds me of a big events ticketing company I worked for that, when people complained about noise, distractions, etc they came up with the amazing solution of using your health and wellness budget to buy noise cancelling headphones.

Most full of bullshit company I’ve ever worked for.

I’d be outraged.

Reminds me of one job, my boss was looking to leave, and was handing over portions of her job to the rest of us. I said I don't have time to do more additional work... she said they can send me on a course to better manage my time. haha.

"You guys had a health and wellness budget?!"

Yeah, used for noise cancelling headphones and therapy. :thisisfine:

Hahahaha same as my work - they said we understand concerns you have about coming back to the office - as a solution to these concerns we decided to buy everyone noise cancelling headphones.

>they came up with the amazing solution of using your health and wellness budget to buy noise cancelling headphones. >Most full of bullshit company I’ve ever worked for.

At least they bought you NC headphones; that's a LOT more than I can say about most companies. And the fact that you had a "health and wellness" budget at all.

> When I was required in the office, I would just wear headphones to avoid distractions

That doesn't work for everyone. Some offices are louder than headphones and some people come around tapping your shoulders regardless.

> That doesn't work for everyone. Some offices are louder than headphones

Depending on your budget, you can block out anything short of jackhammers with either IEMs or earbuds+noise reduction earmuffs.

> and some people come around tapping your shoulders regardless

Do they expect to continue living? What monsters.

> Depending on your budget, you can block out anything short of jackhammers with either IEMs or earbuds+noise reduction earmuffs.

Perhaps more a personal thing but it induces a dizziness/ drowsiness with extended use. It’s fine when watching say a movie but I could never work for long periods with my ears blocked. Wonder if I’m the only 1 but I have heard of similar cases.

I wear them all day during work and also then a couple hours in the evening without any issue. Pure bliss

I get pain from the hears not being in their natural position.

That problem went away for me once I found headphones that are actually over-ear and not only marketed as such. I can wear them all day every day because they're large enough to not even touch my ears, very light because of a plastic case and open headphones so they don't feel as "pressurized". Bad for noisy environments, though.

My hears are perpendicular from my head

It’s quite common. I own only open headphones due to this

Totally agree. It is also bad for your hearing to have to wear loud headphones all the time to drown out a loud work environment. Your ears do wear out.

Good active noise cancelling headphones mean you can listen to music at quieter volumes than you normally would.

>> Open offices are the literal reason

Bumping this up a notch, I have co-workers who work together 4hrs/day on the same meeting but cannot sit together because our Zoom calls all collide when any one person is speaking. Core issue is the lack of conf rooms in a zoom-centric organization.

I think specific problem is high density open plan offices. At about 20sqm per person, and keeping quiet and noisy professionals in separate rooms, it is not too bad.

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