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Comment by jacquesm | Hacker News Reader

Obviously they have, so please don't degrade the discussion like this. Lithium Ion packs are far more dangerous than gas stoves or general use of electricity. If you don't recognize that fact then maybe I should send you my safety notes regarding lithium ion battery packs? This stuff is so unstable that I'm kind of on the edge of believing that we probably should have never used this tech to the degree that we do, and as these systems get older you can expect more and more of them to develop issues.

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If you have materials to this effect, please share with the class. Your statement of "lithium ion packs are far more dangerous than gas stoves or general use of electricity" seems a bit far fetched.

From casual review, it appears that the greatest risk for fire in households remains: cooking equipment, heating equipment, smoking, and inadequate electrical wiring (extensions cords, overdrawn circuits, etc.).

This leaves off other majors like kids with matches, candles, flammable liquids, etc.

Note: This is not to say that LiIon batteries are safe and beyond reproach. The Toronto fire service had 29 battery-related fires in 2022, up from 11 in 2021. This compares vs. 254 "cooking equipment" fires, 158 "open flames / smokers" fires, and 77 "electrical distribution" fires (2019 figures). This suggests lithium ion batteries are a source of domestic fires, but not a major one (~2% of causes).

> Your statement of "lithium ion packs are far more dangerous than gas stoves or general use of electricity" seems a bit far fetched.

I wish. I've installed distribution panels and gas gear and none of that comes close to working on a sizeable Lithium Ion pack in terms of risk.

If you don't believe me that is something I can not help but there are other commenters in this thread who back that up, surely the people that actually did this stuff have some relevant experience?

The stats are what they are because of the relative distribution of e-bikes vs gas stoves and such. What should worry you is that the number of e-bikes is still relatively low vs the number of gas stoves.

As for sharing the document, I'd love to but there is no email address visible in your profile, could you supply one please?

Unfortunately I don't disclose emails through public forums for privacy reasons. If you can share the title of the document it may be indexed somewhere on the web?

As for the statement, as a professional I do tend to believe other professionals. Ultimately the statistics don't lie: lithium ion related fires are a minority of current household causes. To your point, that may change over time particularly where larger installations (e-bikes, solar system batteries) are involved. I'll pitch that the regulatory regime is more than capable of catching up and enforcing change if the degree of risk starts to go up. We already see fire departments commenting on it, so it won't be long before we start seeing guidelines and restrictions on battery sizes within homes.

Ok.

I haven't published it yet, and will probably do so in the near future so if you read HN regularly you'll see it sooner or later.

Looking forward to it!

Hi, could you please share your notes with me? I've put my email in my profile.

yes, of course, I will send it.

Edit: sent! should be in your inbox, happy reading.

I have far more lithium batteries on my desk than I do gas appliances on my entire property.

I'm not an outlier either. Most of us carry at least one fragile lithium polymer battery on our person at all times.

I understand that larger packs like those on my bicycle are more energetic, but I'm still not convinced that it is more dangerous than something as mundane as the grill on my patio, and the stats seem to back this up.

The point is, though, that both are pretty safe as long as some standard safety protocols are followed. Should you be allowed to spot weld 18650s on your kitchen counter? no. But you also shouldn't be building experimental grills in your living room either, or playing with gasoline.

This is changing the subject. The point being made is that electrical devices and infrastructure burst into flames a lot, and burn houses down.

Battery fires are horrible, and we should be regulated to protect our neighbors from them just as we regulate other electrical devices, explosives, flammable or noxious chemicals, and home wiring. That does not mean that we should allow private companies to dictate how we use or repair the products they've sold us, even though it could absolutely include legislation to forbid us from experimenting with certain batteries under certain circumstances or without certain licensing.

> Lithium Ion packs are far more dangerous than gas stoves or general use of electricity.

How much of that is due to tech being relatively new?

Gas has some impressive failure modes too; in fact, every now and then I hear in national news about a residential apartment building having to be torn down after being structurally damaged beyond repair by a gas explosion in on of the flats. That's on top of fires and carbon monoxide poisoning. Gas is relatable in its ubiquity and danger, in ways lithium ions aren't yet.

> If you don't recognize that fact then maybe I should send you my safety notes regarding lithium ion battery packs?

I'd actually love to read those. I am personally afraid to play with lithium ion batteries, though a little less than I am playing with propane tanks. Maybe your notes would help me recalibrate. My mail should be in my profile.

> How much of that is due to tech being relatively new?

None. The power density + basic chemistry and the way in which packs are manufactured are pretty much set. Without a change in any of those we won't see any major safety improvements. My hope is on a safer basic chemistry becoming mandated.

> Gas has some impressive failure modes too; in fact, every now and then I hear in national news about a residential apartment building having to be torn down after being structurally damaged beyond repair by a gas explosion in on of the flats. That's on top of fires and carbon monoxide poisoning. Gas is relatable in its ubiquity and danger, in ways lithium ions aren't yet.

Yes. True. But: yet.

> I'd actually love to read those. I am personally afraid to play with lithium ion batteries, though a little less than I am playing with propane tanks. Maybe your notes would help me recalibrate. My mail should be in my profile.

Ok, will mail this to you right away.

edit: sent.

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