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Comment by vetinari | Hacker News Reader

It is different issue than that.

European banks are forced by EU's Payment Services Directive 2 (PSD2) to authenticate using MFA for any payment over 50 EUR.

So what is the second factor? Your phone. Once you pair the app in your phone with your account, you can authenticate your actions using that phone, even if you are otherwise banking using the web app on your computer. Most banks also insist on using their apps, they don't allow generic second factors. Since their apps require Android with SafeNet or iOS, they pretty much enforce the Google/Apple duopoly.

For now, there are other ways -- sms, which the banks are trying to phase out.

So I imagine situation elsewhere will be very similar.

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Banks have no clue about 2FA/ MFA, they will happily put the bank app and the custom TOTP generator/ "key"-app on the same phone or, as a fallback, send SMS to the same phone the bank app is on. So in reality, it's at best 1.5FA because when the phone is owned, the user already lost. And it is really hard to not have the banking app on the phone with many institutions. Some institutions now put the TOTP generation into the same app too. Oh and there are limits on the user name and password-length that make it easier for attackers to crack, in some cases (in Germany) the password can be exactly 5 characters long and the username tends to be the debit card number by default. In many ways, this is really cumbersome, not really secure and on top of everything else adding a false sense of security. Less advanced customers are either somewhat secure but then the product is barely usable or they can realistically use the service but the security is so-so.

> Banks have no clue about 2FA/ MFA, they will happily put the bank app and the custom TOTP generator/ "key"-app on the same phone or, as a fallback, send SMS to the same phone the bank app is on.

This. My bank in France, BNP, does that. Every so often, when I connect to the app on the phone, it says something similar to "in accordance with <some regulation> a strong authentication must be made every <number> of sign-ins". You're presented with only one button that says something like "ok". You press it, and you're in business.

This is after requiring me to type in my pin, which must be precisely 6 digits, and some sequences are forbidden, so you can't type 1234 or similar. It doesn't seem to interact with the secure enclave in any way.

If this number of sign-ins is reached while I'm on a PC (which is the most likely), it'll send a confirmation request on the phone, so at least it works there. When paying online, I'll also get a confirmation request on the phone app.

On my professional account, with the same bank, the situation used to be exactly the same. But a few months ago, they switched away from that to sending a confirmation code via SMS for bank transfers. Credit card payments still have the app confirmation request.

They do? My bank is very explicit about "don't ever run the front-end and the second factor on the same device". Perhaps it's a German thing, with all our Datenschutz fundamentalism that will happily consider even IP addresses PII?

My experience is with select German and Czech banks and/ or "Sparkasse" which is a kind of savings bank used very often by private citizens. These tend to have better mortgage options in some cases but are quickly inconvenient if you have an unusual (digital/ SaaS) business or any kind of special requirements, like if you want to transfer larger sums of money into other countries with a decent exchange rate.

> "don't ever run the front-end and the second factor on the same device"

This is required in some cases, probably unless you apply for the physical hardware token generator which costs extra. You must apply for the 2FA-app initialization through the banking app that you are supposed to run on the same phone. In both cases, it is basically impossible to have a backup. Also, the banking app and the banking key app are supposed to have a separate PIN/ short password or a biometric login. Of course, the biometric approach has all kinds of problems in legal challenges (e.g. something you know is protected differently to something you are). Also, something you know cannot be easily obtained while you are asleep. Also, you probably don't want to use your password manager on your mobile phone - so there you are, typing a generated password to log into the key/ 2FA app for security theater. If there wasn't the banking app right next to the key app, the bank could probably just use something like FreeOTP+ or Google Authenticator without reinventing the wheel, also enabling backups in the process and skipping sending physical mail with the initial setup tokens. But that would be too straight forward and not "enterprise" security or whatever. The situation in Czechia is more or less similar. The banks tend to belong to the same banking groups so the underlying infrastructure might be similar even though Czechia still does not have the Euro/ SEPA.

> Banks have no clue about 2FA/ MFA

Of course they do. But they need to balance security with end user experience.

And since security for a bank is about risk management they can offset this risk in other areas to compensate e.g. additional processes for activities involving larger amounts of money.

My bank wants me to type a code received in the app into a number field a little bit lower on the screen in the same app. They consider this a second factor. Of course it's nothing but busywork and security theater.

I don't know where you're from, but here in austria most banks offer 'cardTAN' as an alternative to mobileTAN. I always assumed cardTAN is a thing everywhere...

edit: with cardTAN you get a OTP/TAN 'calculator' into which you put your smartcard to generate TANs on the fly.

I use it because to me this feels more like a real second factor, when I use my mobile for banking.

The DACH world is specific in many things... but I've seen cardTAN outside it. In Slovakia, Tatra banka does use this system. I guess being part of Raiffeisen explains it.

cardTAN is being rapidly phased out in Austria.

Same here in NL, for now. But: banks are pushing their apps hard, to the point where every authentication you have to manually switch - again - to indicate that you want to use the token generator and not their app (never mind cookies and so on, those are only for the marketing department, when for once they could actually use them to store your preferences).

And there will likely be a time when the bank simply cuts access to the cardTAN system and only allow their apps. Screw them because that means I have to use a smartphone, which I really do not want. The cardTAN system has been very good so far in preventing fraud, once the phone is the token it suddenly gets a lot more complicated and less secure.

Fun fact, I still have the thing here, used it for many years, but they made it obsolete. App only now. It's a German Sparkasse :(

That used to be the universal way here (Belgium) before the banks went all in with apps. I'm not sure wether typing a challange/response into a browser is inherently more secure than a phone app.

For those wondering about 2FA with these apps, factor 1 is "something you own" namely that particular phone/sim, and factor 2 is "something you know", your PIN.

You can still use cardTAN, but the app is way more convenient, especially with QR.

> Since their apps require Android with SafeNet or iOS, they pretty much enforce the Google/Apple duopoly.

That is positively insane. So if you don't use vanilla Android or iOS, you can't use a credit card for more than 50EUR? No phone, dumb phone, too bad?

My French bank, CIC, sold me a Digipass scanner+pin authentication device. Adding yet another device to the usual kit bag won't make it very popular but an option independent from Google/Apple exists and I guess that its non-existence wouldn't fly for long with regulatory authorities.

https://www.onespan.com/products/transaction-signing/cronto/...

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