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Comment by throw3747874747 | Hacker News Reader

I am pretty sure that is (or soon will be) illegal in EU. Car needs to be able to call emergency, if accident is detected.

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The manufacturer may have to legally include the functionality in cars they sell but in pretty sure the owner isn’t obligated to use or keep the functionality untouched.

By comparison if your seat belts are all frayed and you don’t wear them anyway that’s on you, manufacturer sold you a car with seat belts in good condition and that as far as the “compliance” requirement goes.

Might depend on the wording of the law and how that system is tied into the rest of the car. For example in the states, it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. This is mostly about making sure emissions testing via OBD II can’t be gamed, but it also would target modifications like “rolling coal” or turbos and superchargers that allow user controlled fuel mapping. But in the crossfire it catches completely reasonable reasons to modify your emissions system like a flex fuel upgrade, or replacing the computer of your old car with an aftermarket one because the engine immobilizer unit died and they’re paired together and OEM computers and immobilizer kits are either too expensive or not obtainable anymore.

Laws against tampering with vehicle safety devices would easily have a similar effect on your built in phone home systems.

it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car.

Can you cite the law? I know the EPA has civilly pursues companies that make products that bypass emission controls. But haven’t seen or heard anything that goes as fat as you suggest.

E.g.: https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tu...

This allows you to change the engine programming on a BMW. They do note it is not legal in California.

"It is a crime to knowingly falsify, tamper with, render inaccurate, or fail to install any "monitoring device or method" required under the Clean Air Act, including a vehicle’s on-board diagnostic system. Clean Air Act section 113(c)(2)(C)." https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...

EPA defines tampering here:

Tampering. You may not remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068...

It seems primarily about bypassing or disabling emission controls, not user controlled fuel mapping, or mods like putting in a performance air filter or exhaust. But EPA does consider a flex fuel conversion tampering.

https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.h...

The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...

With a relevant paragraph on page 2

The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in compliance.

The part of your post that made me curious was whether fuel mapping, or ECU swapping was illegal. It looks like it is in a grey area under Clean Air Act, but generally interpreted as legal as long as you aren't doing things to make your emissions worse.

At least as far as ECUs go, almost every after market ECU I’ve seen doesn’t control OBD II or the CEL (or does so very minimally) and is therefore immediately in violation of not conforming to the requirements to retain OEM level behavior. Fuel mapping is more grey, largely due to the ability of some OEM ECUs to be reflashed and thus retain OBD behavior.

Title 2 of the Clean Air Act "authorizes the EPA to set standards applicable to emissions... the CAA prohibits tampering with emissions controls, as well as manufacturing, selling, and installing aftermarket devices intended to defeat those controls."

They just got a $10M civil judgement against a couple "diesel tuners" here in Michigan:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-awards-10-milli...

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/national-enforcement-and-com...

but yeah, this is civil action against vendors, not anything that police will fine people for on the side of the road.

Frayed seatbelts won't pass an MOT in the UK. (Don't know about any other country).

I have no required inspections here in the US... No Emissions, no Safety, no inspections at all

For anyone from outside the US concerned about this: car inspection standards are state-specific. Many states have far more stringent standards.

Yup. Here's a fun hack - you can drive car in EU on US plates, due to international agreements. In that case, you don't have to follow local car inspection standards, but inspection standards of your home country.

Get a plate from US state that has no inspections? You need no inspections at all!

There's usually a time limit on that. Last I checked in my country it's six months before you have to register the car, get local plates, and pay VRT (vehicle registration tax) + VAT. Including the cost of VRT in the VAT calculation, resulting in double taxation.

You can't put foreign plates on an irish registered car without first bringing it out of the country and registering it abroad either. I don't think there's any tax due on re-importing a car that's already been registered however. (you even get the same plate numbers since they're consistently mapped 1-to-1 VIN-to-plate forever)

There is a legal limit, yes, but nobody checks it, so you can do it indefinitely. Around here, there's even a lot of people driving on fake "foreign" plates.

Only 12 states require routine safety inspections.

The civilized world gets smaller by the day...

That depends on what you mean by Civilized.

I 100% oppose these inspections, and fully supported the initiative to remove them from my state.

What’s an MOT? :)

Yearly inspection to prove the roadworthiness of the vehicle. Brakes, tyres, lights, exhaust, seat belts, etc etc. Full list of checks: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mot-inspection-ch...

Cars younger than 3 years or older than 40 years ("historic vehicles") are generally exempt. If your MOT isn't up to date, your insurance is invalid.

Will it also be illegal to drive an old car that doesn't have this telemetry?

"Oops, how did that happen..." ;)

It is EURO5 or EURO6 emmision norm. It also handles firmware updates, reaction to Volkswagen cheating. Car needs to be online, check for latest firmware and all sort of nasty DRM.

There is also a black box, that records position and speed. It may call emergency if it detects crash. If DRM is violated, car may refuse to start, or only drive like 50 kms.

I don't have a source, but anyone should be able to find relevant articles.

That's just creating a blackmarket for people that can crack the DRM without the car losing functionality.

Wait, new cars in EU are expected to have cellular connectivity?

Yes and no. For eCall the modem will wakeup when crash signal is received, otherwise the chipset is disabled.

For Euro7 it will be necessary by design.

What about the the numerous older cars that don't have that functionality?

Eventually, there will be no older cars left. The 'agencies' are thinking of the future, unlike the governments (ever have done, long term).

Is there some EU police that go around arresting people if you clip it?

It wouldn't be surprising if there was. Look at how they go around enforcing people paying a tax just to be able to use televisions they legally own.

EU "directives" require matching laws to be passed within member states, EU "regulations" apply directly to member states as written. In both cases, enforcement is up to the country you're in.

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