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Comment by karaterobot | Hacker News Reader

Is this blacksmithing, or metal art? On his gallery page, I see that he's making metal sculptures. In the article, it talks about him making decorative art, and turning gun barrels into shovels (which seems like a form of artistic statement, albeit one that produces a functional object). Not trying to be a gatekeeper here, but I think of blacksmiths as making small household objects like horsehoes and nails, but what I have seen this guy doing as being more about sculpture. Relevant because of the headline.

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From the article:

> The industrial revolution rendered a lot of traditional blacksmith work — making hammers, nails, axes, shovels and more — obsolete. But blacksmiths like Mr. Kaviar, 69, have found success creating so-called “functional art.” Mr. Kaviar, for instance, is regionally known for making handrails forged with leaves and birds that have a rough-hewed, borderline macabre design evocative of the work of sculptors like Louise Bourgeois.

You explicitly mention "horsehoes and nails", but I don't think that's a reasonable thing to expect: Especially for nails, I don't think many people would spend money on something that isn't really going to be visible. (I don't know enough about the farrier trade to say the same for horseshoes.) By contrast, a handrail is something that can be very visible.

Well yeah, that's why blacksmithing would die out. Nobody needs handmade horseshoes and nails. The premise of the article is that it's coming back, so I'm wondering if people are buying horseshoes and nails now, or whether the article is just redefining the term blacksmithing so that it can call a metal artist a blacksmith.

You’ll probably be surprised to find out there is _still_ a market for hand-forged nails. It’s not a large market, but as I understand it they behave differently in wood, due to their square profile. I think some of it is chasing authenticity, but also functional differences, which usually aren’t worth the price premium.

Ref: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2015/07/30/forged-forged-nails...

I don't see anything in your link about them behaving differently in wood compared to the machine-made nails in the same post?

I don't know about the article, but I remember being told by a blacksmith that blacksmiths' nails are much rougher than machine-made ones, so they have much more friction and can't be removed without destroying whatever they're stuck in.

Yes, but there are industrial "high adherence" nails, such as annular nails (common in roofing) and cut clasps (sometimes used in flooring), examples:

https://www.bradfords.co.uk/ironmongery-fixings-adhesives/na...

https://www.heritage-store.co.uk/traditional-nails/2043-cut-...

very likely the hand-made ones are for restoration projects where you need to be as faithful to the original as possible.

> due to their square profile

or, more commonly in timber framing, rectangular profile.

Hammered in thin dimension between the grain, long dimension with the grain, maximising wood|metal surface area, minimising splitting|cracking forces.

Etymologically I would say it fits. "Smith" means a metalworker, note the relation to smite, which one does a lot in blacksmithing, and "black" refers to the black oxide forge scale the results from repeated heating of the iron and steel (vs other metal workers, e.g. silversmith or goldsmith).

So give they are using more or less the same methods of a blacksmith of yore and the etymology works, they would seem to be a blacksmith to me.

Surnames via profession

Black ~> iron smith, Green ~> copper smith, White ~> silver smith

Historically, blacksmiths of one sort or another were involved in making almost every tool prior to the industrial revolution.

My totally unreserved guess is that there are not very many on a per capita basis, but there are probably about 10-50 working smith's per state. They do architectural work, historical pieces, education, sculpture, and all sorts of other stuff, if you include farriers (who deal with shoeing horses, but it's really a more technical trade that deals with horses gaits and health).

The difference between "horseshoes and nails" and functional art is that nobody looks at horseshoes and nails and appreciates the craft that went into them, unless they are decorative, i.e., unless they are boutique hand-forged nails or horseshoes. That's why normal horseshoes and nails are punched out in a factory.

I don't know precisely where the line between farrier and blacksmith lies, but I definitely know a farrier (who shoes horses, but does not make his own horseshoes).

Nails are a whole 'nother kettle of fish: authentic forged nails are in (limited) demand for reproduction work. Cut nails and die forged nails (Tremont and Rivierre, respectively) are much loved at a more affordable price where absolute authenticity is a lesser requirement.

Incidentally, the surname Naylor is an occupational surname for a nail maker.

My take is that it's about the method rather than the outcome. If you're heating up metal and deforming it, you're blacksmithing. If you're cutting, welding, and grinding, then you're fabricating.

It is a gradient, especially as blacksmithing becomes more prized for aesthetics. But that applies to a lot of metalwork.

One common definition is that you're doing craftwork if the object is functional, artwork if it is functionally useless. I don't blacksmith, but I do machine things as a hobby. I consider most of what I do to be closer to the art end of the spectrum because I'm usually making it to explore the shapes, although there are frequently functional aspects.

Is an overcomplicated umbrella stand of copper and bronze art or something else? Personally I'm still not sure.

Blacksmiths are concerned with the shaping of iron and steel into any manner of functional or decorative objects. "Classically" these jobs were based on the type of material as opposed to what they were making – though there's plenty of subcategories therein, like bladesmith, gunsmith, armorer, etc etc.

This feels like a very odd form of gatekeeping; if it's art, is it not also blacksmithing?

Not to mention there's a whole bunch of functional-practical middle ground. The sword/knife people produce objects with usable blades but aesthetic qualities. Then there's literal gatekeeping: wrought-iron gates and fencing are both practical and aesthetic. Traditional in the UK although a lot got unnecessarily scavenged during the war.

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