To make dishwashers great again? (2020)
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First, replace your pods with a box of powder detergent, then add some detergent to the prewash cup on your dishwasher in addition to the normal dispenser. If your dishwasher doesn't have one you can just put some on the door before you close the washer. This gives your dishwasher detergent to work with on two of its cycles rather than just one and in my experience it makes all the difference on really difficult dishes.
The pods are effectively identical to the powder detergent but at a huge cost premium and don't give you the ability to adjust your amount of detergent to match the water hardness in your area which can result in a film on your clean dishes.
for more info there is a great Technology Connections video covering it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
Alternatively you can test this by just throwing an extra pod in the bottom of the dishwasher to start with. If it works well then you can consider switching to powder to save costs.
European dishwashers use 240V (like everything else in the house) and so they can heat water much more quickly.
This electrical difference is also reflected in the fact that electric kettles (for boiling water) aren’t nearly as popular in North America as they are in Europe. Technology Connections also did a video on this topic [1].
Of course equal efficiency isn't necessarily a given. The insulation and the design of the heating element can have a notable impact on heating time. And for small amounts it likely doesn't matter that much. But assuming equal construction it is still a very notable difference.
Dishwasher maybe less so, but they're usually pretty sturdy too.
No matter what, North American dishwashers will only be able to draw 1500w, and probably less because they're not always on a dedicated circuit, and have other power needs than just heat. So it's probably not a "cheap diswasher" vs expensive one issue.
The Miele user manual for their USA models recommends connecting to the cold water inlet unless the hot water is known to be heated by a very efficient source [2].
[1] https://producthelp.maytag.com/Dishwashers/Product_Info/Dish...
[2] https://media.miele.com/downloads/05/c4/00_96106053F20B1EDDB...
Huh? How does it matter to the dishwasher?
At 1200W and a 2.5 gallon wash cycle, I'd expect heating from 70 to 130F would take about 20 minutes. Unless the pre-rinse cycle was extended, I would expect this would mean the soap was released at the start of the wash cycle before the water was to temperature.
(Though they might have different dishwashers in Europe with better heating?)
However, even if you had hot water available, it would actually be to hot. The hot water entering can be much hotter than the required 30C for the lowest setting, so the dishwasher would need to cool the water.
As for heat setting, what’s the reason to be concerned with tap water being too hot? I don’t think plumbing code would allow water to be available at the tap that was hot enough to actually damage any type of utensil/drinkware/etc? I presume the only reason there might be a lower heat setting is simply for energy savings, which is kind of moot if you’re instead pulling hot water from the efficiently heated water supply.
1. He points out that a powder Detergent by itself is less effective than a combination of powder and gel. Something that the pods provide built in.
2. His own experiment with the prewash were completely underwhelming, showing nearly identical results in addition to not proving any different in the final result.
this seems like bad advice. Setting aside the question of whether the colors actually do anything, once this "advice" is known it's only a matter of time before inferior brands add a mix of food coloring to their detergent pods to look more premium.
1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed.
2. What exactly is so special about the colored liquids? What is the chemical make-up of them and their purpose? And are the liquids the same between difference brands? Is the red of one the same as the red as another? Or is the red of one have an equivalent to another (brandA->red = brandB->blue)?
Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:
> Chemistry expert and former detergent chemist here, chiming in. Modulo some small semantic differences, you're 100% spot on. Functionally, there is zero difference in the formulations. Every powder dish detergent on the market comprises the same functional components, though the exact chemicals selected may vary. It's always some combination of detergent, anti-deposition agent, water conditioners, strong base, oxidizers, enzymes, buffers, "processing aids", and what I call "foo foo juice" - colors and fragrances.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...
The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference.
> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:
Uh, yeah, by definition I'm appealing to authority. Namely the authority of the people who did the comparison testing in America's Test Kitchen. That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.
Is the fanciness of ATK any different that CK's Milk Street? Season six of the latter had Jordanian, Brazillian (pizza), Turkish, falafel, Mexican, Greek cuisine; season five had Ethopian, Japan, Ukraine, Crete, etc:
* https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/video...
If anything it's Kimball that seems to have gone in the high falutin' direction. Regardless: if fancy is where the viewers/audience numbers are now, then that's the direction that either/both shows have to go to. What was done in 2010, or whenever, is irrelevant if the landsacape has changed.
> That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.
That's fine, but the authority should at least explain why so the more curious viewer could dig into things more. The YT link to the Technology Connections videos is to a comment by a chemists that breaks things down:
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...
For example:
> Some pods, such as our top pick and runner-up pick, contain additional liquid cleaning agents in separate chambers that release when the PVA film dissolves. This design keeps liquid and powder separate until they are dispensed, allowing detergent boosters that best operate in liquid form to combine with powder detergent during a dishwasher’s cycle, enhancing their effectiveness.
* https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-d...
Right. Specifically, its the kind of advice that even if it works on the market at the time it is written, if it gets popular, it is very trivially subject to gaming in the way that gives truth to Goodhart's Law. "More colors of liquid in the pod = sells better" is an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.
On the other hand, if they care enough to manufacture the pods with multiple liquid compartments, why not put the good stuff in them? I don't think the chemical composition will meaningfully change the cost.
Because the good stuff may cost more than the 'placebo', and given each pod can cost 10-30¢ each, small amounts matter in terms of margin.
Yup this is what it is. My understanding is they have different enzymes that clean better but need to be mixed at the time of washing.
One other thing made a difference between good and bad cleaning in a load - plates near the dispenser.
The detergent dispenser is in the door and putting plates on the bottom rack sort of between the bottom rotating arm and the dispenser seemed to interfere with the pod. It would prevent or delay dissolving the pod and mixing with the water. leaving some free space in the bottom rack in that location was key.
Dirt sensors might mean that deliberately leaving crud on the dishes (rather than rinsing first in the sink) leads to longer and better washes
Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher
The first cycle is just water, before the detergent tray pops open, so put detergent into the pre-wash tray or just straight into the tub to make it do more cleaning in that cycle
But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder
I'd much rather watch a 30 minute video that's entertaining and teaches me something than skim read a document for a few minutes.
He also tends to go into all sorts of interesting tangents that I probably wouldn't have even found out about if I was researching this stuff myself.
Learning how's and why's also gives you tools to think about future things you encounter as well. You get a greater understanding of the world.
Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).
> But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder
I'm not sure damaging your plates is the reason to avoid the extra pod. Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.
I'm not sure about scratches. I can imagine you would get scratches if your detergent (especially crystals) doesn't completely dissolve? I mean, people even sometimes use sugar as a scrubbing agent. Dissolved sugar can't scratch anything, but sugar crystals can.
https://www.maytag.com/blog/kitchen/how-to-prevent-etching-g...
American dishwashers heat their own water too - I think this is for cases when the dishwasher has a time limit on how long it will spend heating up the water (perhaps to meet expectations on cycle length).
The pre-wash/pre-rinse cycle may only give enough time to raise the temperature 10-15 °F before the regular wash cycle starts. I do not believe they will delay the start of the wash cycle due to the water not yet being to target.
Starting with cold water reduces the effectiveness of the initial rinse, and may reduce effectiveness or prolong the wash cycle.
The edges/sides of my Corelle plates (a layered tempered glass) are rough due to the dishwasher. Also, those with prints have faded significantly.
> Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).
I don't think this is a US-vs-world issue. Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.
Rather, Technology Connections is suggesting a hack.
Your dishwasher, wherever in the world you may be, will start up by using whatever water it can get for an initial rinse of the dishes, and it will measure how dirty the water is after this initial rinse.
Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water, the dishwasher will detect more dirt, and so it will assume the dishes need more aggressive cleaning, and adjust its program accordingly.
> Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water ...
I might be misunderstanding you, but this definitely doesn't apply everywhere.
I don't know how this works in the rest of the world, but in the Netherlands at least my dishwasher is only hooked up to the cold water, running my tap will have no effect on the temperature of the water my dishwasher receives.
It makes sense to hook it up to a hot water line, given things like solar collectors and heat exchangers heating / pre-heating water.
Unless someone can point me to the existence of regulations saying something like "it's illegal to connect a dishwasher to a hot water line, it's gotta be cold water that the dishwasher heats up itself", then my expectation is that most dishwashers can be connected to either hot or cold, and will heat the water to the correct temperature.
Looking at EU regulations, as far as I can see, they don't regulate the intake temperatures that dishwashers have to accept. What they do regulate is energy usage labelling, and mandating there must be an "eco" mode, what the eco mode must do, and if you get to select multiple modes then "eco" mode must be the default. https://commission.europa.eu/energy-climate-change-environme...
This is not my experience. Nowadays appliances such as washing machines and dishwashers, in Europe at least, only have a cold water inlet.
Apparently modern appliances use so little water overall that it's no longer efficient to connect them to a hot water supply, since they will stop drawing water before the hot water runs through the pipes, and therefore it just wastes the hot water.
No? I'm in Germany, all dishwashers I've ever had were connected to cold water and heat their own water.
My dishwasher is connected to a hot water tap and also heats its own water to exactly the correct temperature... it just doesn't need to heat it as much because it's connected to a hot water line.
Here's the install guide of a random dishwasher selling in Germany right now: https://media3.bosch-home.com/Documents/9000521334_L.pdf
It says to connect to a water source with these characteristics:
* Pressure: 0,05 - 1 MPa (0,5 - 10 bar) * Temperature: max 60°C
It doesn't specify a minimum temperature although I assume it'd have to be >=1°C. But it is clear you can connect to either a hot or a cold water line.
And what for? Whether the instant water heater or the dishwasher heats the water, it's still going to be the same amount of electricity, the same cost.
981 of 1027 models from a number of well-known brands have an optional hot water intake: https://geizhals.de/?cat=hgeschirr60&xf=1069_AEG+Electrolux%...
I think in the US people might heat water with natural gas, which is cheaper, but that's not really the case in most rental apartments in Germany.
I think it is more a 110V vs. 230V household power issue. For 110V countries like the US the amps needed to heat up the water would be pretty high or the heat up would take very long. In Europe however I have yet to come across a dish-washer that is connected to the hot water supply.
Which country are you in?
I'm in the UK and we only connect dishwashers to the cold supply. Other comments in this thread from NL and DE are the same.
The manual makes clear this is quite OK.
They work with either hot or cold water. They will heat the water to the temperature they need. They don't work with _too hot_ water, hotter than they would heat it themselves (e.g. >60°C), but that's also outside the range of most domestic hot water supplies (which per BS 8558 should have a draw-off temperature of 50°C at sinks).
As a quick sample, here's the Argos dishwashers page: https://www.argos.co.uk/browse/appliances/dishwashers/c:2961...
Pick any dishwasher at random, go to Specifications -> General -> Water fill. Every single one I picked, all from different manufacturers, said "cold or hot"
Looking at one random choice's data sheet: https://documents.4rgos.it/v1/static/3425118_R_D010
> Maximum temperature for water intake (°C) 60
> Connect the machine to cold water if possible. Then the dishwasher itself heats up the water during the washing phase and the final rinse, which means that you save about 20 percent of energy. Today's dishwasher detergent works best and tablets dissolve better when the program starts with cold water.
> Dishwashers connected to cold water use around 30 percent less energy than dishwashers connected to hot water. A dishwasher connected to cold water only uses hot water when it is really needed.
https://www.cylinda.se/produktguide/kok/diskmaskiner
https://www.electroluxhome.se/vitvaror/diskmaskin/inspiratio...
- Does the dish washer support it? Not all do in the EU.
- Did the plumber install a warm outlet when they set up the connection for the dish washer?
- Does it even make sense from a holistic perspective?
The latter depends on the specific circumstances. For instance, I live in a country with district heating, and here it makes sense, because then I can use cheap heat. My dish washer supports it. But there's no warm outlet installed by the plumber, and currently the heat is mostly from coal, whereas the electricity is mostly renewable, so for the time being I just let it be.
A ceramic is a glass (or the other way around), just of a different material composition. And yes, a dishwasher can easily damage both glassware and ceramic dishes depending on how the glass (or glaze, in the case of a ceramic dish) was formulated.
A common durability test for ceramic engineers is indeed — placing it in the dishwasher.
The first water cycle does not get heated, but all subsequent ones do. I’m tempted at switching it to the cold water line.
However, those details are exactly why I follow his channel! I'm a million times more confident repairing my own appliances than I was before I found his videos, and it's not because he has videos on how to repair my specific appliances, it's because his deep dives into a wide variety of appliances have given me a good intuition for how these kinds of machines work.
> How do they all not drain power at a similar rate?
This is a strange optimization choice. I'd much rather replace plates slightly more often vs. spend time each night handwashing or rinsing dishes. My philosophy is to put everything in the dishwasher regardless of 'diswasher safe'. If it breaks, I replace it with some other dish/cup brand. In a short time you are left with durable cook and glassware that the dishwasher can clean by itself.
As it is often the case in the EU these regulations are aimed at consumer level products. Industrial level products are regulated differently, if at all. I don't know details.
Wait, does that mean that dishwashing pods are not Vegan?
While I quite like this Darwinistic approach, I've not actually had this problem other than with printed or gilded patterns. Although I need a better solution for my grandmother's EPNS spoons.
What made it stop washing? I had switched to powdered detergent because I couldn't find pods due to COVID shortages. When I found pods again, I bought them. I've never had problems since.
Is there a case that they’re something else?
Of course, there are other ways to formulate things, but they all have tradeoffs.
I had switched earlier this year after seeing the Technology Connections video, and I'm ready to switch back. The pods are just better.
Or invest in a water softener. They’re a one-time expense and almost no maintenance (aside from a small expense/maintenance for salt), and are beneficial for a number of things:
- improved appliance longevity
- eliminating scale buildup on toilets and faucets
- improving the health of your skin and hair
- everything cleans more easily
So for me, I'd say something that takes me about 30 minutes to do (including the trip to get the salt) twice a year is fairly low maintenance.
Also, when I lived in the Midwest I could barely tell the water softener was there. I would descale my kettle and the first pot already had a thick layer on it. I now use a countertop RO system.
I guess it depends on how hard the water is, I suppose, but could also be the type of softener. I'm not sure, I haven't done a lot of research on it, as it seems to just work.
But in my experience, I can tell a huge difference (vs. the house we moved from that didn't have a softener). I never see any scale on our appliances, faucets, shower doors, etc.
When showering, I can tell when I've forgotten to refill the salt just from the feel of the water.
TSP == Trisodium phosphate. Available at many stores.
Mix 30% STPP with powder for hard water. 10% for soft water.
The same for washing machine detergent. Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.
In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.
I pay so that I don't have to add yet another thing to my increasingly limited free time. The older I get the happier I am to pay extra so I have to do less.
Because powder detergent (no matter if for laundry or dishes) has a nasty tendency to pull in moisture from the air, leading to it clumping up and getting ineffective. If you have a family with small children that produce a lot of dishes and laundry, you may get away with it but if you're single / DINK no way.
> In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.
That one is because most people don't use distilled water to dilute, but tap water instead... which can carry serious issues, either because it dissolves the piping (see e.g. Flint water crisis) or because limescale builds up in the engine where it's hot and eventually clogs up, leading to engine failure.
Also, the nozzles on the spray arms can become clogged. The easiest method to clean everything is to add one of those "cleaning" tablets to a normal wash. These are just Sodium Hydroxide, which chemically converts accumulates fats and greases into soap.
EG, I use the 'weed wacker' to cut up stuff, or I am racking leaves, I get pants with plant debris on them. I tend to shake them off first.
Presumably plates had the leftovers scraped off into the compost bin before putting into dishwasher anyways.
This strikes me as an abuse of the word “need”, in my opinion.
Look, yes, you ought to replace the filter every six months to a year, but will your car stop dead the very next day if you don't? No!
It also won't stop the day after, or the day after that. Ergo, by induction, we come to the conclusion that the 2012 R2 server on RTM patch level is not professional negligence.
It's just simple logic.
I don't like cleaning the dishwasher during normal cycles. I don't like eating more chemicals than I have to.
I clean the (German made) dishwasher when it tells me to using products designed for this.
https://shop.rema1000.dk/varer/145820
and
https://www.fjordbutikken.dk/sterling-citronsyre-til-afkalkn...
The first on removes dirt .. mostly fat I think.
The second removes lime using citric acid crystals. You could use vinegar instead I think.
The water hardness has something to do with the amount of salt the dishwasher uses so it needs to be set correctly.
I don't have any issues with the dishwasher.. I had it for 5 years.
https://clrbrands.com/Products/CLR-Household/CLR-Calcium-Lim...
This is probably a 'different problem', in that I have hard water, and calcium buildup is a thing here. It also builds on the plates and everything. So.. I do a full load, all dishes, with CLR. Yes, I do a second wash after.
To give an idea, if I put a pot full of water on the stove, and boil it to empty, I'll end up with a solid disc of calcium and other elemets at the bottom, about 1mm thick!
Do you use filters for drinking water or just bottled water?
I have a cooler with delivered water. I probably could drink the well water, how much calcium and such does milk have? But I'd have to test it more often.
The cleaning program is probably executed every two months or so. I'm assuming that the dishwasher can sense if the pumps it contains use more energy to pump water (I know pumps that can give the user this info but I think this is an estimate based on some magic numbers from the designers of the motor control software).
It might be also a simple timer. :)
( Myself I prefer Whole Foods 365 brand pods because they have all the detergent + enzymes but none of the ethoxylated alcohols or the worst chemicals)
I smash between a quarter and half the pod for prewash and the rest in the compartment following that technology connection video where he talks about the problem.
I find little life of quality change.
And no, I'm not talking about crappy, dirty, worn-out dishwashers. I'm talking about state-of-the art modern dishwashers. I thought it was normal for everybody that you had to wash all your dishes by hand before putting them in the dishwasher. I thought TC was basically making a big joke, but after TFA I'm thinking maybe dishwashers do exist (or did exist?) that actually ... wash dishes?? And don't take 4 hours to do it??
I’m able to put dirty dishes in mine and have them come out clean.
Only now I'm beginning to think I've been out of the loop.
In the new flat, equipped with some mid-range Siemens, I don't have this problem anymore. I use the exact same pods, same butter, and same knives. Hell, even the "quick 1h 45º" program gets rid of pretty much everything, even using the cheapest pods.
The three biggest changes I've experienced:
1. Water usage has gone WAY down, especially for energy star washers. You may see 2.5 gallon pre-rinse/wash, 1 gallon rinse cycle usage now. Heavily soiled dishes are relying on the filtration system to remove the particles rather than spraying gunk back on the dishes.
2. Post-rinse drying cycles use hot water and evaporation/condensation (via stainless steel tubs) rather than hot air. For ceramic/glass this is perfect, but plasticware will not get properly dried.
3. Pre-wash detergent cycles have started to go away. I suspect this is because the additional agents in pods have made the pre-wash cycle less effective. However, this means there may be even less time before the main wash cycle for water to heat - it is hard to tell if there is a rule whether to delay washing until it has water to temperature if the source water was cold.
Dishwashers (and clothes washing machines) used to use phosphates, but those detergents have been banned for residential use at least in the US.
Every surface you want washed needs line-of-sight to a sprayer, so it's quite possible to load a dishwasher in a way that doesn't work properly.
Certain things are particularly sticky. People used to make glue out of fish for a reason; the one thing I will pre-wash off plates is fish skin.
When I did clean them before washing them, so to speak, the short wash cycle would be enough. (Now I use the sensor cycle.)
No amount of "aww shucks" and tier 1 support level of suggestion changes or downplays my observations.
I can understand the convenience factor of pre formed pods, but if I have to spend 15 minutes a week making my own pods from powdered detergent, it seems like I’d be better off just using the powder as intended.
Using just detergent without rinse agent has always had poor results, and it's frustrating running out of rinse agent. Pods don't really cost that much more unless you're buying the ultra family size from Costco.
> Moreover, the current standard requires standard residential dishwashers to not exceed 307 kWh/year and 5.0 gallons per cycle for the “Normal” cycle. 10 CFR 430.32(f)(1)(i). Consistent with the results of the Department's evaluation of dishwashers offering a 60 to 90 minute “Quick” cycle, DOE's has identified an innovative opportunity for the further development of a dishwasher model offering a “Normal” cycle of one hour or less.
I think the issue is that manufacturers struggle to get good cleaning performance subject to the 307 kWh/year, 5 gallon per cycle rule unless the cycle is very slow, and the DOE has indicated that it will allow more water and/or more energy usage for faster dishwashers.
(Speaking of water usage, I find it odd that dishwashers don't seem to do a final spray with fresh (non-recirculated) water. I would gladly use an extra 1/4 - 1/2 gallon per load to get a freshwater rinse at the end.
P.S. What's up with kWh/year anyway? Surely it should be kWh per cycle with an added restriction on additional power used when not running.
e.g. A fancier model with several 'Eco' cycles and only one higher power mode will appear better than simpler models with fewer modes, even though the simpler model might actually use less energy.
In fact it would be very counter-intuitive and highly misleading.
If you compare the energy efficiency of my old one with a new ones where you have to pre-wash your dishes with warm water the old Bosch wins both in energy and water use.
Not exactly friendly for your electric bill though.
If you think residential dishwashers are bad at getting plates clean of dried-on gunk, commercial dishwashers are 100x worse, as that's not their job. The pre-washing everyone gripes about shitty residential dishwashers now requiring is an expected and designed-for staple in a commercial dishwashing process.
That said the high pressure sprayer before the dishwasher is enough to get almost everything off dishes except hardened melted cheese. If it didn’t spray everywhere I’d want one for my house.
I “learned” this in college, too. And then I did a bit more research and discovered that the dishwasher was very much capable of cleaning, but only if it had appropriate detergent or cleaning solution. But commercial dishwasher cleaning solution is nasty and highly basic, so apparently whoever was in charged decided students shouldn’t have access to cleaning solution. So we only had sanitizer, and the dishwasher only sanitized.
After a discussion with the facilities department, I got cleaning solution and its feed line, and the dishwasher magically started washing dishes!
One should still spray the food off first, but commercial dishwashers wash just fine.
You still need to thoroughly clean the dishes before they go in, otherwise in 1-2 loads the filters are completely clogged. They are absolutely not designed for dishes to go in that have any residual food on them.
In a residential setting if you're going to clean the dishes to that extent, you should just finish washing them, as it's basically the same amount of time for a household's amount of dishes. The only time a commercial dishwasher makes sense is if you need to do dozens of plates and cups and kilograms of silverware.
Commercial dishwashers are a bad choice for residential use.
Are you sure they actually use harsh chemicals? I thought it's mostly about the extra heatL
If I ran a restaurant, I would go with high temp to avoid residual chlorine taste. And I would skip the rinse aid, thank you very much.
Or if you want a decent job, install a reverse-osmosis water filtration system in the central water piping that takes out all the nasty mineral salts responsible for the hardness and limescale. Also makes cleaning way easier.
Famously the Romans liked to found cities where the water was hard. But the preference persists for some people today. (And the reverse osmosis thing is a big investment, and might not be feasible when renting.)
Or bonus points for a dishwasher that uses RO concentrate/brine for washing.
I now tend to avoid anything labelled as "eco" as it invariably means "worse".
The cycle is very long, though. Mostly I don't mind, as I tend to run it overnight.
You probably measure your temperature in something like Kelvin (or Celsius or Fahrenheit), too? Instead of taking the ideal gas law pV = nkT serious and measuring temperature in units that are implied by T = p V / n * k, ie energy per degree of freedom.
I think that now DOE appliance standards, for all appliances, are now in annual consumption terms. They used to use different terms for different appliances that could convert to annual consumption (e.g., for dishwashers, it was "Energy Factor", which was cycles per kWh.)
> Surely it should be kWh per cycle with an added restriction on additional power used when not running.
That would be strictly more complicated, though I don't think passive draw is a big things for dishwashers.
Even the cheapest models should be able to meet the DOE limits and clean the dishes completely.
The quick 65C cycle takes an hour but uses 1.1kWh and 10 US gallons.
I bought a new dishwasher like 2 months ago and it’s the best I’ve ever had. The eco mode works great. A few times I’ve had very greasy pans so I switched to the 60°C mode instead and it’s great. My dishes are very clean.
Do y’all use the correct amount of detergent? Regenerating salts, with the correct setting ? Rinsing fluid? Do you correctly put the detergent in the trap and not directly in the dishwasher? (I’ve seen tons of people do that, of course it doesn’t work, all the detergent is used in the prewash) Do you organize it correctly?
If so there’s no reason for a dishwasher to not do it’s job.
And, it's totally fine? It cleans dishes. It takes a few hours - but then it's pretty rare I need all my dishes immediately anyway. I've got enough so even if it's full there's a glass or a plate available. I use the all in one tablets - it has a special tablet mode that opens the door pretty much immediately. I never pre-rinse plates. I think I clean the filters every 3-6 months under the kitchen tap. Takes about 2 minutes.
This article seems to be conservatism (in the sense of "change is bad") for the sake of it.
If they wanted to make great dishwashers, the cleaning isn't the problem, it's the stupid mushy buttons. Give me actual good buttons.
I assume most people who don't actually have a problem just don't comment.
Anyway, for another datapoint I have a rather recent dishwasher (in the EU) and it works about as well as the older dishwasher I had before, or the one my parents had 20 years ago. It does take 4 hours to run a load, which is fine, I've always run my dishwashers at night so I'm not even sure how long it took the others.
So I don't think they're getting worse. But as a sibling comment said, I wish the buttons were more responsive, not sure why it takes about two seconds for the thing to wake up after pressing the power button.
If you run it at night, not an issue.
If you run it after lunch, not an issue, everything is available before it’s time to prepare dinner.
If you’re organized I don’t see how 4 hours is a problem, unless you cook every 3 hours?
And if you need things right away, even a 1hour dishwasher would be too long, if your issue is time just hand wash your dishes.
If you run it after dinner, dishes can't be finished (put away) until the next morning unless you want to stay up late.
Nothing wrong with that.
> If you run it after breakfast dishes aren't available at all before lunch.
If you run your dishwasher at night, there's no reason to run it with just the breakfast dishes inside, it's a waste of water and energy.
But still, you can use the fast mode (30min/1hour). And if there's something specific you need (a pan?) just open the dishwasher and hand wash it. Or buy one more.
It doesn't require big organization skills to work around the fact an eco cycle is 4 hours honestly.
Nothing wrong with that for YOU.
Please do not expect everyone to conform to your personal circumstances.
I bought a new one just this year. And yes, it does do a pretty good job.
But if you read the article, one of the complaints is that it takes a lot longer, and that is true for me as well. Way back in the 90s, I had a new dishwasher that was really cheap, and pretty noisy, but it would do a load of dishes in about an hour. My new one is 2+ hours.
Keeping the dishwasher quiet, which is a consumer demand, not a regulatory demand, affects your wash time. If you don't care about the noise, you can have a more powerful pump spraying a harder stream of water, and as a bonus, less sound-deadening insulation means you can cram more dishes in there.
I feel like if you need them quickly, 1 hour would be too long anyway, no?
But would you accept 100% slower, or 400% slower in your case, if it was your computer?
It's not spraying continuously like an older dishwasher might.
I've already manually removed all of the flow reducer bottlenecks in my showerheads.
If you want me to use less water or power, tax it more, don't render my appliances nonfunctional. Alternately, heavily tax the inefficient machines so they aren't cost effective for normal consumers/builders.
I really hate how poorly modern appliances work.
they also release steam in quantities that will have negative effects in a kitchen that wasn't built to withstand that. commercial appliances are meant to be used in commercial kitchens with commercial ventilation.
Domestic dishwashers are designed to deal with plates sitting around for the few days it might take a small household to fill them up before running.
You just need to be willing to spend the money on the better brand equipment.
The modern tests for toilets are much tougher than the old tests, and the best modern toilets will pass with flying colors on those tougher modern tests. Older toilets, and lesser quality toilets, can't hold a candle to the kind of performance you are able to get with the better and more modern toilets.
Toto is just one example. They're not the only one with top performing toilets. You can look on Consumer Reports to see the tests they run, and which toilets do well on those tests.
The US has had (roughly) four kinds of toilet:
1. The old 5 gallon per flush kind. Didn’t clog all that often. Flushed very very slowly. Contributed to downstream clogs because the outflow was insufficient to get the solids flowing well through the pipes.
2. The early lower-water-consuming kind. These were awful. Replace them if you have one!
3. Modern toilets. They use 1.28-0.8 gallons per flush, they rarely clog, and they don’t tend to clog the pipes downstream. They are generally quite good.
4. Flushometer toilets. They are often messy - they flush loudly and spray water around. Eww.
Why go backwards?
Modern toilets are tested for their ability to flush well:
I was hesitant to buy new toilets because I figured they’re all low-flush, so what difference would it make? I found a top-reviewed model on Home Depot and it made a huge difference. Went from everyday clogs to a clog maybe once every few months. I replaced all my toilets and it’s the best home upgrade I ever did.
Have an acquaintance, whom I'll call "Big Shit", whose feces were so voluminous that they required custom (i.e., high-volume, larger diameter) toilets and enlarging the sewer line in the house.
Big Shit's oriental wife has broadcast his productivity to all of his friends, much to our amusement and disgust. Certain asians, unlike Americans, are not at all shy about discussing their (and their spouses') bathroom experiences in excruciating detail.
With a single control, it's more commonly hold for short flush, release for long flush, which is just madness.
Source: owned too many dishwashers over the last decade. Paid money to make problem go away and to my surprise it actually did.
It works really well, but it's not magic.
Eg it still benefits from adding a bit of powder in the special compartment that opens immediately (or alternatively, directly in the body of the dishwasher).
You also have to clean the Miele's dirt trap every once in a while. I'm informed American dishwashers have different arrangements that don't need cleaning?
https://photos.smugmug.com/Appliantology/Kitchenaid-Dishwash...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_disposal_unit
Looks like those units are really uncommon in Europe.
So, yeah. I guess those things are a quirk of the US only.
I don't get why the USA don't ban these, but then complain about rat infestations at the same time. JFC.
I split my time between Germany and the US and the lack of a garbage disposal in the kitchen sink is a constant annoyance. (It's nothing to do with fatty foods; the reasoning provided seems like a red herring.)
New York's rat problem is world-(in)famous, as is San Francisco's.
> and having to clean out the sink drain filter multiple times per day is a disgusting waste of time.
Yeah, if you're peeling onions and potatoes over the sink instead of a bio-waste container. Do it like Germans do (in fact, if you look up your community's Abfallsatzung you may be required to) and you won't need to clean that thing more often than once every few months.
I don't ever peel anything over the sink, it's just the small particles of stuff from washing that fills up the filter. This isn't a "you're holding it wrong".
I get the impression it's a similar objection to air conditioning: it's regarded as foreign, atypical, and unnecessary luxury, so plausible justifications about why it's bad are trotted out.
One of my favorite parts of visiting asia is discovering what fun new things have been electrified and automated. It seems europeans tend to have the opposite culture, and regard using electricity as vaguely sinful.
(I'm considering whether it would make sense for us to install one.)
But in no country that I visited without those macerators do people clean their sinks multiple times a day. Are you sure you aren't 'holding it wrong'?
That's still weird. Standard German kitchen sinks have a very coarse filter [1], it's almost impossible to clog these up with anything but potato and onion peel segments.
[1] https://www.obi.de/edelstahlspuelen/pyramis-einbauspuele-ca-...
What are you doing to your sink?
I used to live there and the rodent problem is real. There was a great book about it a few years back where they wrote up a little piece on each cat at each location. And yes, I had a cat in my house because without a cat you get mice.
Paris is also notorious for its rat problem. To say that Europe doesn't have rats is just silly.
Perhaps I will ship a German SKU Miele from Germany, and figure out how to get 230V/50Hz to it. I wonder which 60Hz market has the highest power/water limit Miele SKUs.
I imagine there are some Japanese ones from the 60Hz half of Japan (you read that right, yes) that might fit the bill, too.
Also make sure you check the traps and clean the rotating heads - that was an issue with our older Bosch after a while.
I run it on sanitize (baby bottles) with just pods (and rinse aid, it helps getting the water off/dry) and everything comes out squeaky clean. No matter the gunk on it.
Had a Bosch when I lived in Germany. 1h14min for a normal cycle, pods. Came out squeaky clean too. I miss that machine. The extra time the Miele in the US takes is really annoying
The Miele is nice and quiet, but sometimes I miss my old loud energy-hogging dishwasher that had a real "dry" cycle with a fan.
ime this is because plastics have lower thermal mass and hence cool out faster than the ceramic/glass/metal things. while the water evaporates from warm objects it then condenses at lower temperature surfaces.
The quality of the unit is substantially better than any other DW I've experienced. Jury is out on how long it's going to last, but by reputation, There's Miele, Bosch, and everybody else.
The one that pains me is ovens. They are hugely power hungry and here many models have a very tiny amount of insulation (unless you get a "pyrolitic" model that heats up to 500C to burn the oil off, they have better insulation by requirement of that).
We have no energy rating for ovens, so no real incentive to improve. The vast majority are also installed by builders when the house is built, so consumers never even make a choice in the first place. You can also imagine that also pushes most builders to the bottom end of the market. I'm also still always surprised how expensive ovens can be for how simple they are.
Most of them now also have a fan to run air around the the outside of the unit so it doesn't overheat the cupboard around it (but not all) which is perhaps also a hint at the poor insulation. The cheap builder model I most recently pulled apart had such poor insulation and gaps all around it.
Choice's most recent review has running cost per year ranging from $310 to $651 (this is unfortunately behind a paywall): https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/ovens/revi...
"The running costs are calculated based on running the oven at 170°C for one hour, three times per week for 10 years at 30c per kWh. Where available, the fan-forced function is used, otherwise, the fan-assist is used. For models without either function, the top and bottom elements (convection or traditional bake) are used."
That's also probably generous since you often run a higher temp and I suspect 200-220C might make a big difference in that cost.
It's a good reason to make use of appliances like air fryers (which despite the name are mostly just ovens), they heat a much smaller space and use a lot less power as a result.
Unfortunately the ever shrinking house makes storing and using such things increasingly difficult. Microwaves are also only 50% effeceient (a surprise I recently learnt).
I know why we don't have it, and energy ratings are partly a proxy for it, but I always wished the average consumer had easy ways to be more informed about trade-offs exactly like this article talks about. You can trade energy effeciency for a slower cycle - that's partly why most washers these days have many different cycle options - you're trading one thing for another - but most of the time they just tell you the name of the situation they are supposedly for without even a hint at maybe how much more or less energy or water or delicacy you are trading off. The same reason product reviews are never clear cut because everyone has different priorities :)
If energy prices reflect externalities, you wouldn't need any special regulations or official ratings to give people incentives to get improved appliances.
Energy costs are already giving people incentives to do so, but perhaps they aren't high enough?
There is no way to know how much the oven is using. Even noce purchased, most people have no idea how much energy in their home is used by what (they just get a single bill and for an entire 2 months period).
Lastly as noted, at least here, the majority are installed by builders and included in a package price - the consumer doesn't choose and most builders don't offer an option. Many more would also be chosen by landlords for those who rent, rather than home owners. Or may have been chosen by the home owner that built the house you then purchased.
Thus I would say the number of consumers that directly choose and purchase the oven they use would be a low percentage, and the cost to replace it is high enough to make that unlikely and not have a great payback period.
Eg in Germany people routinely check out how good the insulation on eg the windows is when they choose a place to buy or rent. That's because energy is expensive in Germany, and it gets cold enough in winter that you need to heat.
If energy is cheap enough, people can be rationally (!) ignorant about these issues.
[0] At least here, a 208V element is not available. It works at 208V but not as well.
If the same ovens are available in the UK, then maybe look for the model number on a UK website.
You can always add clothes. If it’s too hot, there’s only so much you can remove. Particularly in a corporate setting
This is a huge argument in favor of WFH: fewer/no arguments over office temps, a debate about as old as time itself, and particularly a place where it's going to be extremely difficult to get varied groups of folks to all be comfortable and agree (imagine someone super petite vs someone with a good bit of body mass, or someone who grew up in Norway vs someone from Singapore, or even just guys and gals who statistically tend to have different circulation, fat levels, etc. leading to different preferences in ambient temperature).
One exec guy would turn the AC on high because there was little circulation over there. He liked it 'cool'. I was on the other side of the open area, in a small office. I'd come in in July, and the thermometer on my digital desk clock said 63f. I could not move my fingers to type efficiently because it was so cold. My fingers ached. I brought in a space heater and was chastised that I was "making a big deal out of nothing". 100+ people were consistently uncomfortable to make sure one person was comfortable. The energy waste had to have been enormous.
The days this guy was in it reminded me of working in foodservice, having to stock the walk-in cooler on delivery days. Yes, by afternoon, it was bearable, but 63f was just too cold to work effectively. Dozens of us were impacted, but the one top exec needed his comfort the 3 days a week he was in.
...
> The days this guy was in it reminded me of working in foodservice, having to stock the walk-in cooler on delivery days.
63F is not a walk-in cooler; 40F is a walk-in cooler.
Hyperbole like this is just rubbish.
Outdoors we at least have airflow to wick heat away. Indoors, it's just stale, warm air (there's other trains of thought that discuss the impact of CO2 in rooms on deep thought; I don't have any such studies handy to link at the moment but it does come to mind tangentially).
They should get used to it. Cooling large spaces is a huge waste of electricity, and it's not like 74 degrees is anywhere near hot or miserable.
Our bodies generate a pocket of heat that we end up sitting in without airflow. Years ago I bough an air circulator (a fan designed to push a lot of air slowly across a room, instead of blowing on a person) specifically to deal with this, and it brought my room-temperature-upper-tolerance from ~76 to ~80 without any need for AC.
People who point to electronic energy usage need to leave my clock cycles alone, and either direct their anger towards the world's elite, with their private planes and yachts, or just shut up completely.
And Microsoft can suck my nuts with their default settings for power savings. Why would I buy a sports car and let someone keep a software governor on the engine?
I'd be curious how the study was conducted, and if they have video of the study participants washing their dishes.
The majority of the energy used in dishwasher is from heating up the water. If you wash with cold water, you are using less energy than the dish washer.
You'd better rinse with hot water to get the soap away.
Edit: I just measured my kitchen sink and pot for this, 17x19 and 4 inches high = 5.6 gallons. If I go all the way to the sink's overflow at 6.5 inches high, that's 9 gallons.
Because I can only use water cool enough to put my hands in, the dishes are not as clean as what a dishwasher can do, but, again, no way does a single wash consume 5+ gallons.
Rinsing dishes requires fresh water from the tap, which runs somewhere from 1-2 gallons per minute. After filling a sink (or bucket) with water and rinsing everything, it's easy to use 5+ gal to wash dishes.
More efficient appliances mean less water going through the sewer, and less wastewater that needs to be treated. Which means lower capital expenditures, which eventually come directly out of your pocket.
And if even a fraction of people feel the need to pre-rinse or post-rinse, those gains can disappear.
Also, we've apparently transitioned from waste water being something that had to be dealt with to an actual asset. It can be cleaned to partial usage (and used for agriculture) or directed to help refill specific aquifers.
IOW, wastewater infrastructure is necessary above a certain density.
The irony is that wastewater infrastructure is one of the areas where cities often defer maintenance, leading to sewage backups when it rains.
That's always a good concern to have. That's why regulations that restrict consumption for individual appliances or activities are pretty silly.
An overall carbon price (and appropriate water price) would be much more rational than individually banning drinking straws and thirsty dishwashers.
But that's politics for you.
Same with washing machines. My wife gets annoyed, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't really care whether the default cycle takes 1h30 or 5h.
One doesn't usually separate dishes by color before washing them in a dishwasher, and even if for some reason one did, one still wouldn't usually wash towels in a dishwasher.
Modern laundry washing machines also have a "finish at" timer. I set mine to finish at 8am so after breakfast I empty it out. If we really need to do 2 loads a day (it happens sometimes with a family) then the second one is done around lunch time.
It doesn't work with every laundry layout (luckily does for me) but I have found leaving the door open so it can dry out is very helpful to prevent mould built up on the doors etc at least. Not sure how much it effects the bacteria/scud/etc - could even make scud worse to some degree since deposits dry out I guess.
Another tip that I only recently learnt is that you can dry washing with a dehumifier at a rate not that much slower than a clothes dryer (6-ish hours). Also at a rate cheaper or comparable to a heat pump dryer. That may be a good option for your staged washing if you're happy to hang the clothes out.
On my washer at least the hour cycle does a pretty good job of things though in theory you're supposed to only wash like 3-4KG instead of 8-11 like in the 2-3 hour cycles.
Two things I am reasonably sure matter but have not looked into the research and need to get around to doing is: - I have to wonder about the impact of long washing loads on clothes longevity and wearing out of the fabric, especially with fuller loads.. that's a lot of rubbing. - The washing powder I currently like the most definitely gets caught and leaves residue.. in particular it builds up -inside- the detergent drawer and becomes so glued on even a pressure washer and screwdriver takes a lot of effort to get it off (clearly needs CLR or some such). I am sure some detergents are much better at not building up SCUD compared to others but this seems to be a not well discussed/reviewed fact.
From an Appliance repair/reseller "Bens Appliances and Junk" "Clean a Washing Machine Inside: How to Remove Mold, Soap Scum and More with a CHEAP Organic Cleaner" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOXM81Zk_As
"How The Insides Of Washing Machines Are Deep Cleaned | Deep Cleaned | Insider" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I45FqVN-PjE
I didn’t really mean “immediately” so much as “you can’t leave it overnight then possibly forget about it the next morning,” but yeah, it seems to depend on the weather and other things (more on that below). Hasn’t happened in a while. The washing machine is clean, I scrub out the mold in the detergent tray regularly and have always left the door open. I used to run the cleaning cycle from time to time but don’t think it is necessary since I do whites with plenty bleach at scalding hot temps often enough. It happened with our old top loader, too. More than anything though, you can smell a moldy washer and ours doesn’t smell and a freshly washed load normally doesn’t either.
It seems to be the Lake Michigan water we are hooked up to responsible for the stinky occasions. I read up about this a few years ago and they actually monitor for the levels of the molecule (I don’t think it was bacteria?) that gives wet clothes their stink since it is rampant in the Great Lakes and they are constantly adjusting because it’s expensive to counteract more than they feel they need to. My guess is that they got their act together in recent years. Another point in this direction is that it happens some summers to towels used after a shower while they’re hanging to dry. I’m pretty sure it’s just the water.
Oh, and in answer to your question, we definitely noticed the euro-style front-loader was harder on the clothes than the old American top-loader – though it also did get more stains out. But yes, we too fill it up properly to capacity to avoid the waste of running it empty or mostly so - and I guess the increased friction would contribute.
[0]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1994-11-20-941120... archived at https://archive.ph/qV723#
[1]: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1999-06-25-990625... just archived at https://archive.ph/wip/ybQ9N
—-
There’s also this 53-page survey of contributors to taste and smell in water supplies from the Illinois State Water Survey out of UIUC that I would love to get around to reading (or at least skimming through): https://www.isws.illinois.edu/pubdoc/C/ISWSC-127.pdf
For the record, those cleaners are usually pure sodium percarbonate (commercially sold as Oxiclean/Napisan). When combined with a hot cyle (60 degrees Celsius or higher) it does a good job sterilising your washing machine.
Drip-dry (usually whilst completing other loads) on a drying rack. This often removes most moisture.
If still damp, put the laundry in the dryer for a quick cycle.
This maximises the efficiencies of each mode: drip-drying tends to quickly shed the initial bulk water through, er, dripping. A warm-air dryer is relatively ineffective when laundry is dripping wet, but is quite good at removing final traces of moisture.
If you have time, a fan blowing over a drying rack will also speed drying.
Outdoor lines can be quite effective especially in hot, dry climates. Less so in rain or fog.
I thought that’s what the centrifugal action was for (even with no heat involved); basically emulating gravity to get the clothes to “drip” outward into the perforations. I imagine it achieves greater than 1g making it actually more effective than traditional drip drying?
<https://www.hunker.com/12003102/how-fast-does-a-washing-mach...>
The tumbling motion of a hot-air dryer is more to circulate the laundry and expose it to airflow than to generate centrifugal drying.
Note that airflow alone will dry clothes (though more slowly), and that leaving your dryer on a low-heat setting is not that much slower, whilst it tends to be far less harsh on fabrics. Much of laundry wear occurs in the dryer rather than the washing machine.
Then the water in the water heater is nice and fresh for my shower too.
Mine (an LG model) has a "Delay End" function, where you say "I want the cycle to end in 9 hours", and it calculates when to start based on that.
The only appliance I have with a “delay end” or “schedule end” feature is my Zojirushi rice cooker (and ironically I never use the timer feature there).
Luckily I have a top loader
So essentialy, when the machine is idle, you end up with both the tray and the door open.
Does that really matters? Do you take your guest first to sight-see your washing machine?
This is why you should get a combined washer/dryer. I never worry about this.
If you're not going to be in, or need to process multiple loads (more likely for laundry than dishes) then long cycles turn the process into an all-day, or multi-day, function.
I still prefer hand-washing dishes in most cases as it occurs in parallel with meal prep and eating (fill sink, soak cooking and prep pots and utensils whilst eating, finish and wash table dishes afterward, pop onto a drying rack. Ten minutes. Can be a conversation / bonding time with a partner, or a good time to listen to audiobooks, podcasts, music, etc., if solo.
With a dishwasher, I'm constantly fishing out, and hand-washing, pots, utensils, or dishes that I need either before or during the wash cycle (which takes > 1 hour). Hand-washing that item alone? 1 minute tops.
If you have a large family, there's potential time savings. Solo or couple? Not so much.
As for efficiency: for dishwashers vs. fill sink / soak / scrub, there's little effective difference in water or energy, and the cycle time is far shorter.
You could also just buy more dishes.
And costs more.
</s>
This is the interesting part of your story.
Communicate Directly with Appliances for Real-Time Diagnostics - SmartHQ GE Appliance Service Tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu02_mvDQEI
APK, probably... https://apkpure.com/smarthq-service-formerly-newf/com.geappl...
Interesting idea re-flashing the firmware on your dishwasher or changing internal settings.
Although my understanding is drying cycles are longer than the actual run time. They heat up the ceramic and glass then turn off the heater and let the moisture evaporate. Opening the dish washer slightly and letting it sit for a while will usually completely dry the dishes.
One final tip though is that tupperware is a drying killer. The cheap plastic absorbs oils over time and creates a film that never really dries - making the whole dryer damp. Get rid of those and move to glass for a much better experience in every way.
Dishwasher checks by consumer groups do not test egg protein, or avocado. They need to test with real world, tight locking protein and fats.
And with lentils: the amount of fine gritty fibre which can remain in suspension is just fantastic. And then in the rinse cycle, it sits in the feet of plates and cups.
I also believe that electro-coupling between different metals in cutlery means they age faster if you don't space them properly. If they touch, they can make a circuit.
I've not had the privilege of having a new dishwasher till my most recent place, all the dishwashers prior have been 10+ years old. This new one though which is a Miele dishwasher has maybe 1-2 dishes that need to be manually washed per week at the very most. Whereas my older dishwashers it was anything from an extra 1-2 dishwasher loads per week worth of failed cleans.
We don't rinse our plates, just scrape them. If I have to hand wash 1-2 bowls and plates over the week it's a non-event. We're still saving a lot of water compared to hand rinsing all of our dishes before putting them in the Miele.
The best I can come up with is that maybe it's advocates have a lot left on the plate, and where I would scrape into compost if that happened are using a sink garbage disposal grinder thing?
If it's just some kind of saucy residue like goes into my dishwasher (without any need for any kind of 'prewashing') then any machine that can't cope with it needs returning.
I'm not suggesting anyone run out and feed their dog a bunch of garlic on purpose - that would be dumb - but if you look at the toxicity data, a 30 lb dog would need to eat something like 200 grams of garlic to have a serious problem.
As with many things, the risk is highly overstated -- so please stop spreading FUD.
----
"Onion poisoning is consistently noted in pets who consume more than 0.5% of their body weight in onions."
https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/can-dogs-eat-onions
----
"Consuming as little as 2 grams per pound of your dog’s weight can cause observable changes in a pet's stomach, and larger amounts can damage the blood. For reference, each garlic clove weighs an average of 5 grams. For a medium-sized dog weighing around 25 pounds, treatment will be needed if they ingest 50 grams of garlic—approximately 10 cloves, or half of a garlic bulb."
https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/can-dogs-eat-garlic
----
Unless you're literally feeding your dog a dish with onions and garlic, it isn't an issue.
Wife and I came to the same conclusion. We just wash things in the sink, and use the dishwasher as an overpriced drying rack.
I've put stuff absolutely covered in peanut butter, egg, bottom of air fryer, hot pot pan, etc in the dishwasher without prewash. Always comes out clean.
Even when I was in a rental with a crappy American unit from the 80s, it would still get everything though I often had to use the extended “pots and pans” cycles for that to happen.
But yes, utensils can and do corrode in the dishwasher over time if you have different metals thrown together in the high-temp, high-conductivity alkaline bath.
Sure. The point is, normalising "you have to wash dishes for 2 hours" and saying "shifts stubborn stains" is really overdoing it. If you can get some of these foods off the plates before they dry, and can do a shorter wash, its win--win
To be honest, since having kids and their being at a certain age, we now run the dishwasher filled to the brim every other day at most, so it’s a moot point. But in all cases, it runs while we’re sleeping and it makes no difference to me if it takes an hour or six.
The only time I’ve ever wished it finished faster is on the occasion of hosting guests and having more than the regular expected daily churn in dining ware. And that doesn’t happen enough to matter.
If that's the case: (A) yes, your analogy is sound. And (B), you should probably switch crockery, because most people don't have this problem.
https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/dishwashers/best-...
Whereas I place a top premium on the dishwasher actually getting the dishes clean, and then getting them dry afterwards. Bosch does fine on the first part, but without a heated drying cycle, they're rubbish on the second part.
I will never again buy another dishwasher without a heated drying cycle.
So, yes -- use those tests and listings, but make sure you fully understand the data behind them and assign your own priorities to those attributes that you value. Because what CR values may not be the same thing that you value.
I guess it's because europeans typically take their appliances when they move instead of leaving them in place (as they typically do in North America).
Costco had the best pricing on Bosch in my opinion. Cheap delivery and removal of the old unit. Was really surprised how lightweight a washing machine is, but I guess it's just a shell with a pump thin metal+plastic drawers at the end of the day.
For apartments, where tenants are more likely to abuse the appliances, a plug-in might make some sense, as it would make installing a new dishwasher slightly easier, and avoid needing to cut the power on that circuit to wire up a hard connection.
That being said, next look at the brand. I have a Bosch and its great, super silent. If you hear a noise, you loaded your dishes too tightly and they're banging against each other.
I did see examples when shopping that were in advertisement only. i.e. the 'express cycle' skipped something, the drying stage, or rinse stage(s), etc.
It's well available at retailers in Canada. I could go purchase one this afternoon.
> but it doesn't seem to have info. on when it was introduced. Can you link a model that is confirmed to predate November 2020?
The product manual mentions a revision to the power cord made in September 2020, so that product predates nov 2020.
How is that relevant to the fact that the manufacturer has discontinued it?
Retailers can sell products they have in stock even if they are no longer manufactured.
Looking at the instruction manual it's clear that both the 'Express' and 'Speed60' modes are skipping some steps of the cleaning process as it says:
Normal
Recommended for daily, regular or typical use to completely wash a full load of normally soiled dishes.
Speed60®
Cleans freshly soiled dishes with easy to remove soils. This cycle reduces cycle time while still including drying.
Express
Cleans lightly soiled dishes and reduces overall wash time. Use this cycle to clean glasses and dessert dishware that may need to be reused at the same event.
You've moved the goalposts so far they're onto an entirely different field here.
So your going to pretend the first part of my comment doesn't exist?
It seems a bit self-defeating to be honest since I can't see how anyone will pay more attention to your views after.
Since it appears your confused as to what the article is about, let me spell it out step by step:
It's clearly not moving the goalposts because the whole point behind this change was that it was spurred on by recent dishwashers, circa 2020, that don't clean as well, so giving an example of a dishwasher that doesn't clean as well in a faster mode, is pointless. Since that is already understood as a possibility by everyone who read it.
It's not some hidden secret that all dishwashers can be sped up by lowering the bar in the cleaning cycle. What's interesting is if it's able to maintain the same level of performance in less time, typically at the cost of increased energy and water usage, hence the nominal basis for this rule change by the DOE in 2020.
First half of which comment?
> Since it appears your confused as to what the article is about, let me spell it out step by step:
I was replying to your comments, not the article. Your comments specifically asked about machines that had quicker modes. Your comments didn't have any of the details you're now providing. I haven't read the article and don't have any interest in doing so.
- The dishwasher runs balls-out for 40 minutes so it's noisier. (Bosch sells a lot of units on its reputation of being ultra quiet)
- Manual mode doesn't check the soil sensor while washing.
- There is no drying cycle, which is the bulk of a two hour wash.
So if you're okay with that, Manual works just fine for most everyday loads and is pretty much the equivalent of the old school DWs and how they worked.
I feel like dishes still being dirty has other factors involved. Many people (my wife) load the dishwasher in an ineffective way. At least for my model, most of the cleaning comes from the center spray arm. Load bowls on the bottom rack and you'll end up full of water or not cleaned. Load the pot like standing up on the bottom rack and the arm will hit it and stuff will not get clean (and you might break the arm). Prewash your dishes and the turbidity sensor won't work right and you'll be left with either dirt or detergent on your dishes. And don't get me started on the unrelated topics of loading in wooden utensil, sharp knives, etc.
Load it right and put it on the right settings and they get clean (and out of frustration my wife will accuse me of prewashing to get them clean). It's not as simple as just piling in the dishes, like some people think it is.
For example: "And yes, it is crazy, if not also bad environmental public policy that the federal government regulates the robot in my kitchen that cleans and dries the dishes; and keeps changing the rules to the point that the machine first invented in 1886 no longer accomplishes its purpose."
More specifically, with the earlier dishwashers I had to really scrub the dishes before I put them in. This is still important as I don't like getting leftover cat food on my coffee mugs, but the extent I have to do it is significantly less. Nowadays I scrape my plates into the trash and just put them in the dishwasher. Whereas for the first dishwasher my parents had in the 1980's you really had to scrub dishes clean before loading them.
They've only gotten better in my experience. I really don't understand what this article is complaining about?
It's a GE which has a food grinder in it. Very quiet.
We are combating this by only using vinegar in the rinse aid reservoir and dumping 2 cups in the bottom after unloading.
At $1.50/gallon for vinegar its not a cost issue just a "why does it have to be like this" issue.
We clean our filter monthly, too.
I bring this up because this was actually a talking point during Brexit, and the excitement that Finally! Brits would be able to buy good vacuum cleaners again now they'd left that pesky EU. I've got no idea of the status of that particular regulation today, but I know that I haven't heard a single person mention it since the days of the Brexit vote.
Power ratings don't correspond to performance if the world irrationally decides that higher power means better. If the low end landlord special dishwashers can't make do on 1500w, then perhaps they just shouldn't exist. My landlord special cheapo dishwasher here in Canada however does a completely fine job using the cheapest powder I can get at the supermarket, as long as I load it properly, and haven't absolutely burnt the shit out of something in a pan.
https://youtu.be/r_9AkGSj3FQ?si=jj0iB-pTYC5GZmSZ
Here's a squeaky dishwasher door inside the most expensive ($250 million) and highest penthouse in the world (video at 8:40):
https://youtu.be/aN9DH_GxqEo?feature=shared&t=521
Now that's comedy!
Many domestic dishwashers spend a lot of time at the end drying your dishes. Commercial ones seldom bother with that.
The point of the commercial dishwasher is really to get the water super hot (steam, actually), and then sanitize the dishes after they've been cleaned.
My Bosch dishwasher is only a few years old. On normal mode, it takes 2 hours and 20 minutes. However it has a "Vario Speed" option which uses more water/energy, but performs the same clean in about an hour.
We rarely use Vario Speed. The dishwasher gets stacked after dinner and set on a timer so that it runs overnight. But the option for a fast wash is much appreciated.
One thing I'll say about wash quality is that the detergent matters. In Australia you can check out Choice's list [1]. We did find the Aldi Logix Platinum ones to be pretty good.
https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwasher...
Funny, on my dishwasher the "eco" cycle is the longest cycle
I have no idea what the problem is ... for now, I've been washing in the sink and drying with a dish dryer from Japan (shokki kansouki).
Maybe what you said is a clue, though, and I’ll see if I can find any information phrased in terms of soap reacting with water. Different variations of “soap doesn’t drain” hasn’t found me any hits, like I’m the only one having this issue.
It did a poor job washing the dishes, made lots of noise, and the arm kept falling off.
The fix for the poor washing was so simple: buy cheap Costco dish pods in bulk for CAD 10 (12-13 now) for around 100 pods and just jam two pods in there. Add rinse-aid and voila, sparkling dishes from cheap equipment.
I once had a job as a commercial dishwasher, and those machines did the same thing in about a single minute. Of course the chemicals were harsh and the temperature was high.
Look, the government has to regulate things and it's sometimes going to be clumsy. If this particular thing bothers you, that's fine. But it's childish to use the tone of "the gubment hates mah freedom" here - ESPECIALLY for us, in a time where more regulation of e.g. tech and cybersecurity would likely be a good thing.
I would recommend that you look at them closely and get the one that fits your use case the best.
CR can also help here, because they will test them independently of the dishwasher.
Maybe because our how water systems are more various, so you can't just assume that's always hot on demand when you want it? If you need a heating element in the dishwasher anyway it's not much of a feature.
But I still don't get it: as dishwashers are usually in the kitchen, isn't a hot water line just as far away as a cold water line?
Or is the concern that there are more "on-demand" hot water heaters and a simultaneous shower might max them out?
People might also have a hot water tank, but only turn on that heater when people want to take a hot shower.
We turn our hot water tank on a few minutes before we want warm water for the shower. Most of the time we don't bother and shower cold, though.
Frankly I think even with some assumptions about your market to ignore 1 & 2, 3 alone makes it more complex than just taking a cold fill and heating to temp within the dishwasher. I believe the very few models that do have a hot fill do it on an eco basis (you already have hot water use it here too) but the validity of that is disputed, and really the only obvious benefit is to the EPC sticker (characterising energy performance) which will appear best in class (the class of all dishwashers) just by not having a multiple kW heater, not accounting for that having been offloaded to the boiler.
Garbage disposals are nick named "plumbers gold" for the same reason above. Only use them to flush water down the sink drain before running the dishwasher, NOT for dicing up what comes off dirty plates.
The kitchen drain line most likely runs below your living room floor in the concrete slab. It is very costly to have the carpet/tile removed and the slab sawed up to replace the line, usually with PVC.
That isn't my experience at all. Modern dishwashers are a miracle; I put in dishes without touching them, and they come out clean. Also, the dishwashers use three forms forms of energy to separate dirt from surfaces: 'Kinetic' (the water), chemical (soap), heat (which of course catalyzes chemistry).
A lot of this article is just partisan stuff: Competitive Enterprise Institute, anti-regulation rants, "environmental zealots", etc., and of course 'Great Again'.
Of course, it was bigger than a VW Beetle. Not exactly something for home use.
https://www.aceee.org/blog/2016/01/amazing-drop-home-applian... https://www.vox.com/climate/2023/3/29/23588463/carter-effici...
I pay a "human" dishwasher $20 dollars a day and she washes the dishes completely, dries them, puts them out, wahes and sorts clothing, mops and vacuums the floor, washes toilets and the backyard with the dogs' dirt.
The wonders of cheap labour I guess
My anecdata:
- whirlpool gold with macerator (pre-2012!), absolute destroyer of any and all food waste.
- bosch (2010esque), no macerator, but great cleaner
- samsung (2015) might as well call it dish unwasher, made a nice drying rack
- kitchenaid (mid-2010s) generally great, filter thing sucks (have to keep it washed) and no macerator makes it get a little dirty, but dishes are clean.
If you can even get it, the macerator seems like the way to go for brainless rinse free dish washing. I imagine it's not offered anymore or something under the guise of energy saving.
My galpal has a frigidaire from early 2000s that is so loud it sounds like it is grinding the plates into dust. They come out squeaky clean and so hot you can't touch anything for the first 10 minutes after a cycle.
Dishwashers are excellent time saver, bring on the innovation!
"The efficiency levels proposed in today’s rule reflect that there are models available today that can meet improved energy and water standards, while providing the cleaning performance that consumers expect from their dishwashers. The new proposal builds upon the groundwork laid by DOE’s test procedure final rule that was published on January 18, 2023, which ensures consumer expectations for cleaning continue to be met with increased energy and water efficiency.
"If adopted within DOE’s proposed timeframe, the new rule for dishwashers will come into effect in 2027. DOE expects the new rule to save consumers nearly $3 billion in utility bill savings over the ensuing 30 years of shipments and reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 12.5 million metric tons—an amount roughly equivalent to the combined annual emissions of 1.6 million homes. DOE also expects the new rule to save 240 billion gallons of water, which is equivalent to the water in 360,000 Olympic-sized pools."
https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-efficiency-rul...
----
From 2022:
"The Biden administration this week reversed a Trump-era rule exempting quick dishwashers, as well as clothes washers and dryers, from efficiency regulations.
"A rule issued Wednesday cuts two Trump rules that created separate product categories for dishwashers that took 60 minutes or fewer per cycle, certain clothes washers or dryers that took less than 30 minutes and other washers that took less than 45 minutes."
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/589555-biden-n...
In addition to adding regulations to our refrigerators, washing machines, stoves, etc. etc.
I had not heard of the IER, and so looked them up:
> The Institute for Energy Research (IER) is a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit organization that, according to itself, conducts research and analysis on the functions, operations, and government regulation of global energy markets.[1] IER maintains that the free market provides the most "efficient and effective solutions" to "global energy and environmental challenges".[1]
> IER is often described as a front group for the fossil fuel industry.[2][3][4] It was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy's transition team after the 2016 United States elections.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Energy_Research
You ever think a research group owned by Koch and Exxon are ever going to find that one should burn less fossil fuels? You think Coca Cola is ever going to tell you to stop drinking Coke? Given the fact they're massively biased on the subjects, shouldn't you then probably take their "studies" with at least 5 tons of salt?
I mean, c'mon now, they say stupid stuff like this:
> Since paper plates and plastic utensils are not eligible for government food assistance programs, the proposed standard will hit the poor especially hard.
Yeah, that's right, lets just slip in the idea of putting in some kind of government assistance to go buy disposable plastic right in this article. Who would stand to gain? Huh, Koch, the Koch family, Exxon, you know, their list of sponsors, etc. Its crazy to me how openly brazen and hostile they are with this logic.
Then they say stuff like:
> Manufacturers have warned reducing water and power in dishwashers has become increasingly difficult without impacting performance
But at the same time mention:
> While most dishwashers on the market meet the Energy Star Standard of 3.5 gallons per cycle
So we're already meeting half the standard and yet they act like its impossible to be at the point we're already at.
I don't personally care too much about these rules, but this article is a bunch of nonsense.
Even from their economic side of hurting consumers, they openly state it'll save >$600M in costs while only costing $125M to implement. So they're arguing against saving almost $500M in energy and water costs for consumers, not arguing that things will ultimately cost more. This article written by the energy industry is literally trying to convince us we should spend $500M in extra energy costs, and you're eating it right up.
If that whole $125M was done in just the first year of dishwashers sold in only the US market it increases the price of a several hundred dollar appliance by $15. Just the water saving costs alone is estimated at $30/unit, then an additional $7+/year in energy savings. If the thing only lives 5 years (dismal outlook, but lets use it) its saving consumers $65, 65 - 15 = a positive number, aka it will save consumers money, even if they're poor.
When I moved to a city I found a lot of people wash with running water or change at the first hint of it getting dirty.
However now I live in a city and have things to do, a dishwasher is great because no matter how long it takes I’m not doing the dishes.
You can order water from a commercial water suppliers of course, but why pay extra if you can avoid it?
In my house, the dishwasher is orders of magnitudes more efficient than hand-washing.
The one hour cycle actually does a prewash.
Rinsing is done with cold water. Options are to fill a second tub (or refill the washing tub after the suds-based wash), passing items under the tap, or using a sprayer hose (the most effective and efficient option in my experience). Total water use is typically less than that used for washing itself.
With dishwashers, it's rare that I don't have to further rinse or clean items, so the nominal usage is understating actual usage.
Even when they do, I just leave them for the next cycle. Unless the next cycle was already going to be at capacity, the added water/energy use for re-washing is minimal.
Knowing what cleaning treatments work and when they're appropriate is another bit of practical knowledge often lost. There's also knowledge of what chemicals not to use together
It's also possible to pre-soak specific items, either in the sink or by filling them (e.g., pots and pans) and letting them sit on the sink. Many people self-sabotage cleaning by failing to give the cleaning solution time to work, which can be a few seconds for light soiling to hours for chemical stains or baked-on stains.
The automatic dishwasher is also hard on the actual dishes and utensils, in my experience, and tends to pit or damage ceramics, glassware, and stainless-steel or aluminium utensils and pots.
And when washing a large number of items, ironically, filled basins to soap and rinse may use less water than multiple dishwasher loads. Though again, when the difference is measured in single-digit gallons (or up to around 20--40 litres), the overall efficiency savings largely pale against other household water usage (bathing, handwashing, laundry, other food prep, etc.).
Again, I see no reasonable basis for shaming those who prefer hand-washing. Cycle time and efficacy can be markedly better, total water and energy efficiency are comparable. Machine-washing is more consistent over larger populations (given equivalent equipment), though might degrade with age of the machine. It's mostly a ... wash.
There are other sources of inefficiencies in using a dishwasher as I've noted above.
My point isn't to browbeat people into hand-washing dishes. Rather, it's to point out that there are real advantages to doing so, and if that's what you prefer you shouldn't beat yourself up over it on account of efficiency arguments.
A few years back I'd looked up the actual research on hand-washing vs. machine washing. The most-quoted study (where any study is quoted at all, rather than vague hand-waving) is from the University of Bonn, Germany:
"A European Comparison of Cleaning Dishes by Hand", Rainer STAMMINGER, Ricarda BADURA, Gereon BROIL, Susanne DÖRR, Anja ELSCHENBROICH. University of Bonn, Germany.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20150701173343/www.landtechnik-a...>
The upshot:
- Practices for hand-washing vary widely. Some are exceedingly efficient. Some are stupendously wasteful.
- There's a considerable variation by country, or by region of the US.
- The best hand-washing methods beat dishwashers. Many of the rest come close.
Among the most efficient hand-washers are Germans, Californians, and Australians. The latter two live in areas where water is chronically limited. The least efficient: Russians.
If you fill a sink basin or small dish bucket, you've got about 2 gallons of water accounted for (the most efficient dishwashers use at least 4, many use 6 or somewhat more). Rinsing may in another basin, or under the tap in the sink.
If you live in a multi-person household and can fill a dishwasher every day or so, and hate doing dishes, the dishwasher makes sense.
If you live alone or can't fill the dishwasher, or would be washing dishes anyway, hand-washing may be more effective.
Either way, so long as you're not performing the Russian method: hot water tap full on during the full period you're washing dishes, hand-wasing can be the most efficient water- and energy-wise.
And if you hate hand-washing, and have a dishwasher, then use it.
Neither side in this discussion should be browbeating the other
> Additionally it was shown that new dishwashers are able to reach at least the same performance with significant less amount of water needed as any test person
Also, the chart shows the average water use for a lot of these countries is somewhere close to 100L of water. Even for the lows of Germany/GB the average is around 50L. 3.5gal is only ~13L of water. So by this document my dishwasher is 3.8x as efficient as the average German doing dishes and almost 8x more efficient as many other countries, but I do agree this study doesn't exactly have massive sample sizes and there's a massive range of variability.
I do generally agree though we're (usually) talking about somewhat insignificant amounts of water "wasted" either way. I use far more water for bathing, drinking/eating, and flushing throughout my day, and we're talking about a few hundred kWh of energy used over a year when my monthly usage is >1000kWh. In the end I agree, people should generally do what's comfortable for them, save for just letting the hot water run while doing a lot of dishes. But this idea that the average person handwashing dishes is radically more efficient just isn't reality, and most people would have to seriously try to be more water/energy efficient than most dishwashers on the market today.
The average person's techniques for washing dishes by hand just isn't as efficient as any modern dishwasher. That's probably fine, but also lets not ignore reality.
Thank you for your n=1 study/survey.
I've seen more than one household run the kitchen faucet at 100% (1-2.2gpm/4-8Lpm) when washing dishes. EnergyStar mandates <20L for a normal cycle.
I suspect it is more efficient at creating germ-free clean dishes, given the temperatures and steam that the wares are exposed to.
I suspect it is quicker than human time than hand washing
It might be slower than human time from stopwatch dirty dish to clean dish.
It might use more water than a hand washer who is very careful with water.
It almost certainly costs more to use a dishwasher. Capital, costs, electricity, repairs, tabs.
> I suspect it is more efficient at creating germ-free clean dishes, given the temperatures and steam that the wares are exposed to.
Though you shouldn't worry too much about germs. The next time you are your food touches the dishes, they are all germed up again anyway.
The amount of germ removal you get from hand-washing dishes is sufficient.
(A dishwasher is still a good idea for saving on human labour.)