Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

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> Did you come from Reddit's Antiwork or something?

I provide financial and logistical support to worker organizing efforts, so being familiar with this information is top of mind. Not anti capitalism, just believe it needs to be toned down a bit. More humanity and a bit less chasing numbers in spreadsheets and databases.

Mary would be just fine earning mid 7 figures, for example. Saying she should make 0 is hyperbole, no one is arguing for that. Workers are arguing for a more fair deal.

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2021/ ("CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,460% since 1978")

https://www.reuters.com/business/top-us-ceo-pay-rose-77-last... ("Top US CEO pay rose 7.7% last year, outpacing inflation, study finds)

https://work.chron.com/ceo-compensation-vs-world-15509.html ("CEO Compensation in the US Vs. the World")

https://inequality.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Ellison-Re... ("Rewarding or Hoarding: An Examination of Pay Ratios Revealed by Dodd-Frank")

>I provide financial and logistical support to worker organizing efforts, so being familiar with this information is top of mind.

It shows, given all the lies you've been spewing all over this thread.

For example:

>Profits at the “Big 3” auto companies—Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis— skyrocketed 92% from 2013 to 2022, totaling $250 billion. Forecasts for 2023 expect more than $32 billion in additional profits [2].

None of this is true.

The combined net income of those 3 companies during that time period is $168 Billion, not $250.

The total combined net income in 2022 was $24.6 Billion, only 34% above the $18 billion for 2013 (in reality this was a real profit stagnation given the cumulative inflation over that time period).

And your "Forecast" is literally a Pro-Union Mouth piece with no actual source for it.

The reality is that this industry isn't doing well, their returns on assets have consistently been below their cost of capital, and additional labor costs won't help with that.

[sources needed]

You can literally look at their annual reports on [EDGAR](https://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch)

Alternatively you can do what I do and use an aggregator like Macrotrends that takes that data and puts it together on a company by company basis:

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/F/ford-motor/finan...

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/STLA/stellantis/fi...

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/GM/general-motors/...

Just add up the "net Income" portion from 2013 to 2022 and you'll see the $168 billion i mentioned.

The inflation thing you can simply use a cumulative inflation calculator like this https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/calculator-c...

Between 2013 and today the cumulatice rate of inflation was 33.33%, vs the 34% in profit increase => stagnation

As for the mouthpiece thing, here is a quote on the about page from the link he provided https://www.epi.org/about/ :

>The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan think tank created in 1986 to include the needs of low- and middle-income workers in economic policy discussions. EPI believes every working person deserves a good job with fair pay, affordable health care, and retirement security. To achieve this goal, EPI conducts research and analysis on the economic status of working America. EPI proposes public policies that protect and improve the economic conditions of low- and middle-income workers and assesses policies with respect to how they affect those workers.

This is literally an organization dedicated to increase workers compensation. ie: a pro-union mouthpiece.

> provide financial and logistical support to worker organizing efforts

When looking at American unions, the UPS negotiators look reasonable compared with the writers’ guild or UAW. The latter (mostly the writers’ guild) seem to be killing their hosts, cannibalising long-term economics for short-term gains.

Do you see a path forward for American labour that is less adversarial? Or is this endemic to labour unions and shareholder management?

> Do you see a path forward for American labour that is less adversarial? Or is this endemic to labour unions and shareholder management?

I appreciate you asking. The path forward, in my opinion, is the "German model" [1] [2] where Labor is another seat at the Board and has representation at the top of an enterprise. How we get from here (where inequality of power, wealth, and cashflow is so great [3]) to there will be messy. No one wants to cede power willingly [4], and the pendulum swung too far towards Capital and management over the last half century (which makes it all the more challenging to find equilibrium). You need reasonable people who are not too self interested and understand why optimizing for the long term is desirable in positions of leadership. These people seem to be in short supply, in my experience. You also need trust (hard earned and easily lost) that those you have delegated your authority to will do the right thing.

TLDR Prisoner's dilemma cake cutting thought experiment. One person cuts, the other person picks the slice. Record profits are grossly underpaid wages. Target less profits (but still profits to account for capital at risk) and higher worker compensation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_model#Industrial_relati...

[2] https://economics.mit.edu/sites/default/files/publications/J... ("The German Model of Industrial Relations: A Primer")

[3] https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-inequality-debate ("Income and wealth inequality is higher in the United States than in almost any other developed country, and it is rising.")

[4] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/951719-power-concedes-nothi... ("Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass)

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