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Comment by yrro | Hacker News Reader

Apache's stubborn refusal to direct OpenOffice users towards LibreOffice has done immeasurable harm to the Apache brand and it's basically ruined the OpenOffice brand. A great example of the damage that can be done by poor stewardship.

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Honestly I didn't even know that OpenOffice was even ostensibly maintained anymore. I've not heard of anyone using it in about a decade.

It gets millions of downloads, putting users in danger who mistakenly think anyone is still maintaining this thing.

Yeah, I agree. I think it would make sense to have a big disclaimer on the OpenOffice site saying "No longer maintained, please consider using these alternatives..." and link to a few other open source office suites (e.g. LibreOffice, Caligra)

But it is maintained? That it's not maintained in the way you or I might like isn't the same as "not maintained".

I'd argue that "adding spaces to the readme" is really stretching the definition of the word "maintained". If they're not fixing bugs (particularly security bugs), and if they're not adding new features, what exactly are they "maintaining"?

They claim they do fix security problems though.

And "doesn't really change much" is not a bad thing, it's an okay preference to have. I'd be perfectly happy using Opera 12 from 2012 – "warts and all" – with some minor changes (it actually runs fairly well today, with the major problem being lack of CSS variables, JS template strings, and a few other relatively minor additions).

Has it? I have used both libreoffice and openoffice, I had no idea openoffice was related to asf until I read your post. I have heard other talk about how people should use libreoffice, but it isn't apparent why.

Back in the day there was real interest in "OpenOffice" among non-geeks. Governments were mandating that documents be published in OpenDocument format. Microsoft sought to muddy the waters by publishing the confusing "Office Open XML" format (which they then never implemented).

And then OpenOffice the project just... stopped. No new features, and eventually no new releases. And by squatting on the brand, they prevented that momentum from transferring to LibreOffice.

> which they then never implemented

Isn't .docx, .xlsx, etc. all OOXML?

Try interpreting them based on just the published standards, see how far that gets you.

So how far does that get me?

To a point where your program won't understand/be able to edit a simple document created by Microsoft tools. In some cases, you'll see an embedded binary blob that's actually an ActiveX executable in an OLE container.

Here's some classic rants:

https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/02/On-OOXML

https://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#E...

(especially in combination with: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070123071154671#E... )

> Governments were mandating that documents be published in OpenDocument format. Microsoft sought to muddy the waters by publishing the confusing "Office Open XML" format (which they then never implemented).

And don't forget, bought off standardization organizations around the world to have it declared a "standard." I wonder if LibreOffice should come out with a LibreDocument format to combat the confusion between ODF and OOXML and to further distance itself from OpenOffice (and as a middle finger to OpenOffice/Apache for squatting on the brand).

Oh and I forgot to mention the guy (whose name I have thankfully forgotten) that the Apache Software Foundation hired to go and troll the LibreOffice community in public forums across the Internet. A tradition that other OpenOffice "community" members have continued (e.g., if you mention LibreOffice on /r/openoffice your post will be removed and you will be banned).

ASF is where projects go to die.

>> I have heard other talk about how people should use libreoffice, but it isn't apparent why.

Because there is almost a decade of enhancements and improvements to LibreOffice that are not present in OpenOffice. It's simply a better tool suite and there is no disputing that. If you try you'd be trolling.

> almost a decade of enhancements and improvements to LibreOffice

including, very notably, LibreOffice speaks the current ODF formats and of course the Apache OpenOffice from 2014 (yes, that's the last time they released a new minor version of their software everything since then is just patch fixes) does not.

I think the continued co-opting of the name of a first nation as their "brand" despite repeated calls from stake holders to do otherwise has caused plenty of harm to the ASF brand.

It's no worse than Amazon being named after the rainforest and river despite not originating there, or Apple being named after the fruit despite not being a greengrocer. Names get reused, it's not a big deal.

Amazon is a place. Apple is a fruit. Apache is a people. Specifically, a people that had genocide committed against them. It’s at least a little worse.

Worse how? The ASF isn't murdering anyone or saying that mass killings from hundreds of years ago were a good thing.

All they did was reuse a name. What's the problem?

I'll take it that you really want the answer to these questions. The Apache are a group of tribes in Southwest. The name comes from Spanish when the Conquistadors invaded. The tribes didn't have a strong group identity. This changed over the next few hundred years.

More than can fit in an HN comment, entire cultures were destroyed. This was through disease, war, imprisonment, and outright repression. "Apache" is an identity that some still hold on to after this genocide. And someone saw this history, thought what these people went through "romantically represented" his web server project, and took on the name.

If you don't see how this is any different from calling your company Apple so you show up ahead of Atari in the phone book, I don't know what to tell you.

> Co-founder Brian Behlendorf states how the name 'Apache' was chosen: "I suggested the name Apache partly because the web technologies at the time that were launching were being called cyber this or spider that or something on those themes and I was like we need something a little more interesting, a little more romantic, not to be a cultural appropriator or anything like that, I had just seen a documentary about Geronimo and the last days of a Native American tribe called the Apaches, right, who succumbed to the invasion from the West, from the United States, and they were the last tribe to give up their territory and for me that almost romantically represented what I felt we were doing with this web-server project..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apache_Software_Foundation...

That is almost certainly a retcon - their FAQ used to say otherwise, back in the late 1990s:

> Why the name "Apache"?

> A cute name which stuck. Apache is "A PAtCHy server". It was based on some existing code and a series of "patch files".

https://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache...

Hm, interesting. I guess they both could be true, like I could totally see myself sitting around trying to come up with a fun name for my software project and being influenced by a film I saw the previous weekend. But given that the documentary where the quote originated smells more like marketing than anything else, I would not be surprised at all if this were indeed a retcon. I wish the docu was still up.

When Microsoft started getting into the web server business with the gift that keeps on giving that’s IIS, they were using that “patchy server” as a dig on Apache and how more professional IIS is. The Apache project then scrubbed it from all their docs.

> despite repeated calls from stake holders

Last time I checked it was a small organisation run by 2 or 3 people with no real standing to speak for anyone but themselves. And AFAIK that was also the only time a major objection was raised.

And look, if you dislike the name then by all means voice your objections and let's have the discussion. I dislike the reactionary "STFU" response, which just shuts every discussion down. What I also dislike is this kind of pretence, which also shuts down the discussion.

I don't recall tell anyone to STFU, I'm just doing what you said, voicing my objections. The brand is tarnished in my eyes by their use of the name of a first nation.

I think your comment is pretty good evidence that I haven't shut down any discussion, I just know where I stand on the matter.

I just realised this now, technically every race/group is the name of a first nation.

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