Ask HN: Have you been affected by layoffs? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Have you been affected by layoffs?

92 pointsdirtybirdnj115 comments

Hello,

1. Have you ever been laid off from a job for reasons that were not related to your performance?

2. Did this affect your job search / career afterwards?

3. Do you feel that being laid off from a job prevented you from recovering due to social stigma around being under / unemployed?

Context:

Yesterday I made a comment about layoffs, corporate ethics and the behavior of C-level folks as it affects the working population. I respect the comment I made wasn't helpful, but I do think there is a meaningful conversation to be had about the topic. I hope this can lead to more constructive criticism about the actual subject, which is how layoffs affect people beyond the job they are immediately losing.

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I was at a company that got bought. Shortly thereafter they started laying people off. For some reason I wasn't. I was one of the last ones there, commuting to a mostly empty office not doing much. Obviously by that point I was already deep into a job search.

They did some shenanigans to try to fabricate reasons to let me go with cause, presumably to save money. It had absolutely no impact on me afterwards in any way whatsoever. I got a new job within a month or so. It was a much better job that I stayed at for way too long.

I feel worse about the people who were laid off before me. The company took everyone on a big team building type trip to a tropical place. I refused to go. After everyone got back from the trip they started the layoffs just before the holidays. I told that CEO straight to his face he was a scumbag. That people probably would have rather had their paychecks through the holidays than some vacation with their co-workers, would they have known.

And yet, somehow the person who didn't go on the company trip, and stuck it to the CEO was one of the last ones still around.

Serious plot twist at the end, didn't see that one coming.

The "party before the storm" pattern is something I have experienced myself.

Also happened at Microsoft before their layoffs.

Are these events planned far in advance and then not cancelled?

I would think cancelling most of this type of spending would be more common. Maybe management didn't know how urgent the need to cut spending was

My company did layoffs right before a company-wide kickoff meeting. I noticed something was wacky when people would pop into the meeting channel and ask why their hotel reservations were't confirmed and would get no satisfactory answer. Turns out the company was planning layoffs for the Friday before everyone travelled for this meeting! They let people make travel plans, arrange child care, do all the things people do for travel just to lay them off right before the trip.

I was not laid off, but the experience hit me hard. I've seen a lot of really crummy behavior in my career, but that really did it for me. I am sure to stop working at 5PM every day now. I will never give an employer extra after experiencing that.

To be fair to the CEO, the layoffs were probably happening either way and the tropical team building activity probably didn't have an impact on the size/scale of layoffs. The acquiring company was going to cut head count and needed the impact to show on their financial statements starting Jan 1. No way to keep people through the holidays. The extra expense in the previous year might even have been encouraged because it would make the following year look like they were doing an even better job of stream lining.

The company holiday was probably planned months in advance. Usually, contracts are signed and it's very hard to get out of it. They could have not gone on retreat, paid for the hotels and flights anyway, and still laid everyone off. The C-levels probably worked on the levels a few weeks before it happens.

I venture canceling the contracts/flights would have been cheaper than keeping them though.

Everything I've heard from people I know who organize events is that cancelling is very, very expensive and gets more so the closer you are to the date. Venues carve that space out for you and expect your attendees to spend a certain amount on food and alcohol. When you cancel, they're out a lot of money. Both from your event and the event they could have booked. That's why it gets more expensive as it gets harder to find a replacement.

Yes, it’s expensive, but usually not more expensive than actually going there (including incidentals like Uber rides, bar tabs, etc).

The only thing is, you save ~30-60% of your money, but when compared to salaries, it’s probably not enough to make a meaningful difference. Anyway, it’s usually not just about the money, but getting away and doing stuff as a team (even if the team doesn’t know about the layoffs).

On the levels?

Similar story here but possibly a bit more fun. New VP came in and less than 6 months later demanded the org switch to some proprietary (expensive) agile methodology that had some theory that orgs with more than like 150 people are too big to be efficient. Nevermind the fact that we were an org with multiple large car OEM customers with 6-12 projects going on constantly, creating new features, quoting for new projects, QA and integration, first line support, etc. We were a big operation, but for pretty good reasons. No magic was going to happen for the business by just going to 150 head count.

VP first tries to do this re-org. In the middle of it, announces they are closing our office as part of the reorg. Our office was a remote one in the suburbs, and probably looked pretty good on paper that we should be the first to get cut. The kicker was we were a power house of the org. ~25 engineers with the majority being senior/principal engineers, each responsible for huge parts of the software stack, and also responsible for actually making sure projects were shipped. Everyone had some experience over the years having long nights working with OEMs in Germany, Japan, etc. for final deliveries.

They made the announcement with an end date in 2 months and everyone got some severance package on top of that. That's not a bad deal at all. Everyone was laid off, including my manager, except me. I had a few meetings with the VP and others to figure out what they were going to do with me. I asked for California salary while working remote. They said no, but they can offer me a ~60k bonus with a fork-back clause if I leave (or get fired) within 2 years. I said that's a joke, I'd rather take a severance package and we part ways. VP was not happy about it and he was quite heated about it. IDK maybe be was used to getting what he wanted. Negotiations stopped there. No severance was offered and I was demanded to work in the office even if it was empty (they still had a lease). I started applying like crazy and landed a FAANG job, but with a start date a few months out.

The 2 months were honestly just excellent. Everyone had a great time shooting the shit around the office. Helping each other interview, playing ping pong, long lunches, etc. Most landed at good jobs within the 2 months so they banked the severance. Nobody did any work. As I mentioned, our manager was let go too and he gave 0 shits. Projects got fucked. The company sent ~3 people from India in the last week to do a "brain dump" with the seniors. Calling it a disaster was an understatement. They all flew home and the office was emptied... except for me!

My start date was still in a few weeks, so I decided to just pester my VP's bosses about his terrible decisions, asking about a severance package, etc. Leaving messages for c-suite a few times a week. Sure enough, I got an email back from c-suite! They said the severance offer will be coming soon.

VP waits another week before sending me the package. The offer was beyond ridiculous. I needed to stick around for another ~4 months and had a ton of AIs that they would determine if I satisfied or not. It included: (1) ship a bunch of shit, (2) go to India to train several hundred engineers, (3) continue shipping a new SDK I had spearheaded up until the layoffs. The icing was they gave me a lower offer than the standard severance. I forwarded it to everyone and said this is ridiculous, there's no way I am accepting this. Please give me a workable severance package. HR and VP set up a call with me the next day. I took the call, got berated by HR for being a bad employee and will be put on a performance plan, yada yada. I just hung up in the middle and walked out of the office for good and enjoyed the vacation.

The worst part: VP moved to a different FAANG the following year. Definitely an overpaid POS.

The best part: I worked with a lot of really great people and those last 2 months were definitely a highlight, even if it came from a shitty situation.

VPs not understanding what senior/principals do during reorgs is mind numbing.

I get looking at salary cost and axing on the basis of that.

What I don't get is not doing due diligence to figure out what a person is actually doing before cutting them.

How can "Oh, {this person} was actually keeping {this core project} on the rails" be a surprise after they've separated from the company?

When they're that high up in the company, they don't really even know what the worker bees even do from day to day. They're just names with a dollar value next to each in a spreadsheet. Totally interchangeable and fungible.

I don't completely buy that, because I think it's under-selling the authority of VPs and setting low expectations for their responsibility.

VPs have incredibly large spans of control, counting reports-to-reports.

However, they also have a ton of authority to pull information. I've gotten ad hoc requests all the time that "X wants a presentation on Y."

Consequently, firing high-level technical folks without doing due diligence is exercising authority without living up to responsibility.

There aren't that many senior folks. Requesting a list of what projects each potential fire is attached to, and who will pick up their duties, seems a modest investment to avoid serious pain.

vacation was probably cheaper than a buncha payroll. easier to push that and leave folks in a happy mood.

1. Yes. It sucks. It feels humiliating and stressful.

2. Yes. It gave me the kick up the arse that I needed to look for something outside my comfort zone.

3. No. Being fired may come with social stigma, but everyone knows that companies sometimes engage in untargetted bloodletting. There's no shame in that.

The hardest thing is the sudden brutality of it. You may not get a chance to say goodbye to people. It feels impersonal and you don't get a chance to defend yourself. Your ego is tied to your profession - as is your ability to provide.

Thankfully, I was part of a strong Trade Union. They were able to negotiate a very generous severance package, and they obliterated my non-compete. If you are at any risk at all of getting laid-off (and everyone is) then you should join your Union.

Unions are definitely not perfect and the institution needs to mature a lot as to keep representing the worker class long term, but I think the fact that most big companies are strongly against them should be a good enough heuristic for you to know you should join them.

The tech world needs something like that. Maybe certificates are the best solution.

Certificates are just some company that charges you to take their test and present the cert on the resume. They are by no means a method for employee solidarity, nor do they remotely have the ability to protect tech workers.

They're as worthless of a piece of paper as your degree when shit hits the fan.

The problem with certificates is that a third-party issuer is monetarily incentivized by volume, not quality.

And a first-party issuer is essentially training you on specific software.

Probably the most/only aligned scenario is first-party certificates from widely-used technologies (e.g. AWS/Azure/GCP).

Big Gov is also against leaded pipes ;)

I think in general a lot of the reasons against unions are fairly valid; it's just the same points are also valid in the scenario without unions.

Everybody will get paid the same -- Your company already has pay bands for each title.

You can just talk to us about your problems -- People complain so much about decisions and they happen anyways!

Poor performers won't be fired -- My experience is you need to do something illegal to get fired anyways.

> The hardest thing is the sudden brutality of it. You may not get a chance to say goodbye to people.

I had something similar happen to me, and I realized that being unilaterally excluded from a social group is basically exile, which historically was one form of the death penalty [1].

[1] Socrates, for example, was supposed to choose exile, but chose poison to make a point.

1. No. Not because I'm a quite special engineer (I'm between the average and median) but one thing that I developed was a decent situational awareness in terms of career management to know the early signs when something is going south and I decided to move first (last 3 experiences I escaped from a mass layoff in a Tech Mid-Cap company, another Scale-up that needed to do layoffs and all stock is underwater and a hostile takeover that ended up with a 65% layoff).

2. I became almost obsessed with company performance in almost all aspects to see early signs of something off. Another thing is that I worked on all of my weaknesses to be more employable (I am a SysAdmin by craft, but I navigate in SRE/DevOps/Operations nowadays).

3. At the time that I was fired some time ago, in my internal circles I was completely open about it, and most of the folks were super supportive. For new job opportunities, I would never place this reason because companies have this kind of stigma and consider you as "undesirable" or "leftover".

All those times I created some excuse like I needed to change cities due to family reasons, the company closed the operation in my city, I changed country, I was doing consulting, etc. This is something, in my experience, that you never open to potential employees.

First because of the stigma already said, second this transfers your leverage in terms of negotiation because the other side knows that you need the work and it incites the other side of the transaction to lowball you financially speaking; and during the job they put you in more pressure to deliver.

> 3. At the time that I was fired some time ago, in my internal circles I was completely open about it, and most of the folks were super supportive. For new job opportunities, I would never place this reason because companies have this kind of stigma and consider you as "undesirable" or "leftover".

I interview people who were laid off all the time. I don't care at all about why they left their last job as long as it wasn't for being a creep or an asshole.

Maybe I am quite used to doing interviews as a candidate, but when I decide to not open some specifics around being dismissed is to avoid some downstream questions that can place me in an uncomfortable position of not having leverage and most important raise some yellow lights in the interviewer to get something out of this.

Ex: _You worked here for 1 and half years. Why did you leave?_

In this case, if I get evasive and put some personal circumstance around it as relocation, new moment of life, etc.; the interviewer will try to wrap it die to the fact that this does not bring any potential signal for the position.

However, saying that I was laid off, at least will raise some downstream questions like "Why have you been dismissed?", "Tell me about the relationship with the team?", "What's the feedback that your boss gave to you?"; and the sad thing is that some of those questions are not specifically to understand circumstances and have a clear picture, a bit at least will serve as a signal and in a worst-case as an eliminatory.

I think that's a solid strategy. You may have some luck being more open, depending on the company. A company that had recent layoffs might be more understanding of a layoff, and that layoffs have nothing to do with your own abilities.

Better to just not bring it up! I was laid off a few jobs ago, and I experimented in my most recent job search with explaining the business impact, how I missed on the signals, and what I did to avoid being in that situation again. It went OK, probably didn't hurt or help.

Re:2

Corporate finances are complex, but not a mystery at their base.

If you work in a public company, join your earnings calls and listen to the presentations, questions, and answers.

Nobody likes surprises -- CxOs, investors, analysts -- so you'll be amazed how often RIFs are telegraphed to anyone who's paying attention.

> so you'll be amazed how often RIFs are telegraphed to anyone who's paying attention

Indeed.

In this Mid-cap company that I mentioned, I used to participate in the earnings call; and the difference in tone and posture of our CFO and CEO with investors and with us employees were abysmal.

The scenario was: during 8 months the company went from U$ 160B to U$ 11B.

With us employees in the all-hands was all positivity, mental health tips, a bump in the road, keep pushing for the objectives, and even a Christmas dinner.

During the earning calls, promises of cutting costs, flattening, hiring freeze, and institutional investors openly calling for layoffs.

2.5 months later first round of layoffs, months later a goal to reduce 25% costs in GCP, and after 2 months another round of layoffs and RTO of 4 days a week.

I always thought of it as:

If you stretch the trust on all-hands, there are no penalties.

If you stretch the truth on an earnings call, the SEC and your investors sue you.

does that mean if you worked for Meta or Google you would have bailed before the layoffs, just because? That doesn't seem very sustainable.

I've experienced a layoff not related to performance, and it was definitely challenging. The job search was tough due to the stigma around being unemployed, but networking and honing my skills helped me bounce back. It's crucial to remember that layoffs can happen to anyone and don't define our worth. Sharing experiences and supporting each other can reduce the stigma and make recovery smoother.

In case someone is looking for open positions: https://www.ratherlabs.com/open-positions

1. Layoff are rarely performance related. There is too much paperwork involved with performance related firings and layoffs happen so fast and so wide it's usually done by lottery. You could be laid off for performance but no one is going to give you an honest answer either way. They still suck and you'll feel like you personally did something wrong. In the overall scheme of labor relations, it's not you it's federal law.

2. Yeah, so it made it a lot easier to network. I didn't have to schedule interviews clandestinely late at night, on lunch breaks, take time off. I could be out front about my objectives and be fully in charge of my career without worrying about blowback. 2 weeks of interview, 2 weeks of reference and background checks. I was collecting my next paycheck before unemployment even finished processing, LOL.

3. Layoffs aren't personal. They definitely can drive morale down for those that remain. And as soon as you have a steady, new job guess who start reaching out to you for referrals?

I wasn't laid off during the 2000s dot bomb, but I quit to finish school. I was not laid off during the 2009 GFC. I was definitely laid off during COVID19, because of COVID. At no point did I think it was even about me. It just sucks and those feelings of inadequacy are real. While my colleagues were feeling sorry for me I sent an email to every business card I've collected through the network events. I had 3 job offers by the 2nd week. You grow, get older, learn from your experience.

I work at a company where performing a RIF is the most common way to get rid of people who are not performing at their expected level of effectiveness - the company does not have any meaningful process internally to perform performance reviews under normal circumstances, but its 'known' even by non-management types, who is effective and efficient at their job, and who is not.

If you aren't measuring performance than it doesn't exist and doesn't matter. So all you have to rely on what it looks like and personal biases. Most companies don't want to or can't do the leg work for a legally compliant performance related firing. It's easier to bundle everyone into a giant RIF.

The downside is the bad performers and the good performers don't get valuable feedback. Good workers assume they are in the former group which feeds their paranoia.

Not all jobs can performance be measured in concrete statistics.

We've had some really likable good guys who just couldn't keep up either technically or functionally, and it's obvious to everyone around, even if no deadlines are missed, and margins are met.

There is too much paperwork involved with performance related firings and layoffs happen so fast and so wide it's usually done by lottery.

Can confirm this. My employer dropped about 10% of staff in order to back fill those positions with contractors from low-cost centers (India, Hungary, Costa Rica). Managers were not consulted in the decisions, and simply told they were losing employees $x, $y, and $z.

I've worked at the same company for all 10 years of my career. The company has been through a few rounds of major layoffs that I've somehow survived. It has affected me in that, for one, I'm always afraid that if I ever stop being "indispensable" to whatever on-going projects that I'll be let go. For now instead I've been promoted to manager. The other way it affects me is it increases the work and responsibilities for those who stay on. We're constantly scrambling and understaffed so we always wish we had those people back. We have thin teams to support a giant product that a larger team of ex-employees wrote, while having to on-board the next round of cheap resources.

> I'm always afraid that if I ever stop being "indispensable"

> I've been promoted to manager

So, first problem is solved then :)

(I'm a manager as well)

1. Yes. I let my employer know that I would be going to graduate school and offered to continue employment part-time in the field in the area. They asked me to wait a week for them to plan. I was laid off 4 days later. Two days before layoff, they gave what I felt was an unjustified middling performance review due to two punctuation errors from a pre-existing template on a report sent to a client.

2. I would have preferred the stability and benefits the job offered, but life happens and I moved on. I was reasonably angry at the employer for about six years after. I've moved past it now. I threw myself into graduate school work and getting supplemental income for my small family.

3. No. Any employer who reads personal performance or morality into a candidate's layoff isn't worth the time or effort to engage.

1) I've been laid off once. I got caught up in the massive layoffs during the MCI/Worldcom fall back in 2002. It was completely not performance related, and my entire division was let go at the same time.

2) The layoff itself was not a blemish, as far as I knew. The big issue was the simultaneous dotCom bubble burst. There was a huge glut of guys like me looking for work, and the jobs at the time just weren't there. What was worse, I was going from making a pretty high salary to applying for jobs at Blockbuster just to try and make ends meet. No one wanted to hire me because they knew it was just a temporary thing and I'll probably leave at my first opportunity.

3) No social stigmas beyond what I mentioned above. It was a long recovery though. I couldn't find anything for almost 2 years until some friends started their own company and brought me on board. I was only making about half of what I'd made previously, but I was happy to be working.

This was definitely the lowest point of my life. Couch crashing with friends and living in my mother-in-law's basement. Before this, I was turning down offers because I liked my job. This event severely humbled me, and now I'm absolutely terrified any time I see that my job might be in danger.

1. Yes, 3 times in the past five years and a half which coincide with my move to Canada (I’m now a citizen as of last week)

- Small startup, no more money

- Covid

- Company tried to grow too fast

2. I feel like it’s a call from the universe to focus on what I really want. At the same time, not having the stability and the experience and growth from a job where I stayed long term is, I think, affecting my resume negatively versus someone who stayed 5 years at one company and was able to grow and have a bigger impact.

3. I was really ashamed the first time and didn’t even ask for Employment Insurance as I didn’t even know I was eligible. I didn’t ask for help and it was a big mistake. This time I’m doing it differently, asking for help, introductions, referrals. It’s nerve wracking though. Having to reinvent yourself that often and applying to hundreds of jobs isn’t fun at all. I’m now applying every morning and take the afternoon to focus on my hobbies or everything else that’s good for my mental health. At least it forced me to understand that I’m not my job and my worth is not dictated by my job or my employer. I also stopped reading news/reddit because of the negativity around the current market. I know it won’t be easy but I don’t want to be reminded about it every day.

Yes, officially. It was part of a ~4.5% to 5% total RIF, I wasn't happy, not doing my best work, one of "the remote guys" that was GIVEN to another group with an in-office culture and we just didn't gel.

So they didn't SAY it was performance related, (I've actually called and am listed in their system as "eligible for rehire", they say), but I know it was.

The time between "the call" and end date was long enough that I had my next job lined up and basically took off Wed-Fri of my last week before my next job started. Truth be told I actually accepted the offer of $nextjob before $laidoffjob's "the call" came. I knew it was coming, so _officially_ I can say I never looked for a new job as a result of layoff given the timing.

So to #3, yes and no. It hurt. It still hurts. It's a gut punch, so it's something I'll just have to live with. It gets better, but to date it hasn't gone away.

1. I've lost a job because the parent company merged with another company and started eliminating "redundant" positions. I've lost a job because of private equity shenanigans. I've been laid off a few times because of budget cuts when the economy was in the toilet. I've lost many jobs over the years and not once was it because of anything I could control.

2. Our culture is constantly telling you that if you can't find a job it's due to some kind of character defect. After a while you start to internalize that notion and it's super depressing. Being depressed and desperate for a job just makes the job hunt that much harder. Employers always want an explanation for the "gaps" in your employment history and "just trying to survive" is not an acceptable answer.

3. See #2

> Our culture is constantly telling you that if you can't find a job it's due to some kind of character defect.

You hit the nail on the head, its a combination of survivorship bias and just-world fallacy that cause people to hand-wave away the problems. Either out of "it doesn't happen to me" or "I've never seen it happen before" its really hard to reason with someone who doesn't see the thing you're complaining about to be a legitimate concern.

Compassion is the only answer. First self compassion, and then compassion for others in the world. Even the ones who do us dirty. Compassion and understanding can't replace burned bridges but it can build new ones. I'm still working on this.

1) My company wanted to downsize and asked for volunteers. I volunteered for a nice package of almost 12 months of pay. They've forcefully terminated 1000+ this year in software, maybe more to go.

2) This gave me a chance to take a sabbatical and gives me a chance to leave IT. Been in the industry for 15 years. The pay is good but IMHO isn't fulfilling. Potentially doing something more tangible. Honestly I could even 'retire' if I want. I'm only 40 but I can work with my wife on her business, take some part time job for benefits...or anything else besides a 40+ hour grind sitting behind a monitor.

3) I haven't told many people I've left my job. My parents still think I work. This makes it a little hard to enjoy my time off, actually as I feel a little bit of guilt.

With a high enough rate of layoffs, everyone is affected, even the people who kept their jobs - everyone has lower job mobility and less negotiating power than they’ve had at any point in the past 10+ years.

Yes, literally last friday. Signed up for a new job mid august, and last week, boom, they did lay off half the company. I just can't stand the fact that it isn't something you start thinking from one day to another, and you can take approaches to prevent this (still hire people 1 month before the entire layoff cof cof).

Idk, I'm just in the middle of f around and find out to see if its really a thing, most of the response from people seem to not care about. But the feeling itself its kind of weird for being a first timer for me!.

My last company did a speed run from "we need to build competency in house" to "internal employees are costly and outsourcing will help us reduce cost" in just 3 years.

I was called to a meeting room and told my role was redundant. The HR somehow felt that I would break down into tears. I was calm. He asked if I already had another job offer. I didn't and I had to tell him that breaking down wasn't going to help either of us in the discussion.

To make matters worse this happened just as COVID news started hitting the waves. That is starting of Feb 2020. Most of the companies had stopped interviews. And then in March shutdowns started. I was out of job between a raging pandemic. No idea when things would open back up. And everyone saying the economy was done and there might not be a job even if things started to open up.

2 months later, in May - at the height of the pandemic - I got an opportunity but came at a cost. Because I was so afraid of not having job - I accepted a 20% pay cut.

But 3 years later things have turned out positively. I am making more than 2020 level and got a promotion into middle management and now pushing higher.

There is a social stigma of being "laid off" or rather "fired". Not many people appreciate that companies can lay off people for things unrelated to performance or other issues. Some are understanding if the lay off hits the news cycle. But if you are working with a smaller company that never happens.

Early in my career, I was laid off during offshore outsourcing mania. Initially, they hired one of consulting company to handle oncall after work hours. We loved it, spent months training our replacements without knowing. We also documented a lot of our tribal knowledge during this time.

Then one day they brought everyone in a big presentation hall and fired everyone. We got 3 months advance notice and then minimum of 2 months of salary as a severance. Ironically, they didn't use the afterhours consulting company. Instead, they hired another offshore consulting company for the actual dev work. I guess they were spreading their risk.

We were ordered to train our replacements in our respective areas. That was the most painful part. The original offshore team also felt betrayed, I guess, and there was very hostile environment.

But three months of advance notice was very nice. Some of us got jobs during those 3 months, and started making double salaries. Managers were also part of layoff, so they didn't care. Executives were absentee mostly and they possibly didn't care either.

I needed an excuse for a long vacation, so I didn't look for work immediately. Instead I enjoyed traveling, my hobbies and side projects.

2. No. Other than that it happened during GFC, I don't think it impacted my career. I have gotten multiple simultaneous job offers since then.

3. No, don't think anyone cares.

1 Yes

2 Yes, positively. I found a better job within a few months

3 Absolutely not. Imo, getting laid off doesn't come with a big social stigma. Professionally - yea, I sugarcoated it for recruiters. But everybody else treated it like I broke my leg: an unfortunate, mostly random occurrence, after which I may need some help.

Edit to add, for context: I got laid off from a pivoting startup in a hot market. I suspect my experience would've been different if I was hit in the layoffs over the past year.

1. I have been laid off during the probation period (3 months in France). A new CEO was brought in roughly at the same time I was, and he was there to rescue a company that was apparently having difficulties (I only learned about this when I got laid off). All the people on probation period would be let go. I've learned later whole departments had been shut down. Last I heard, the company was still functioning, albeit with a reduced portfolio.

2. Yes, but in a very positive way. They were actually supportive and didn't kick me out the same day (though they could have, since it was the probation period). They said they'd keep me on board while I looked for a new job, but no longer than the maximum term of probation, which is 6 months. The HR lady set me up with a headhunter they used, and he brought me two very interesting positions, better paid than the one I was leaving. In the end, I went with a different one, even better paid, which still is my current position many years later.

3. Never exactly felt any stigma, probably because of what seem like quite unusual circumstances.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Biggest challenge I've seen is with stalled advancement, particularly for people with 10+ years of experience.

That said, those impacts are less severe (for ppl like me) these days as recent layoffs are more broadly recognized as resulting from executive and management failures.

That said, the general lack of a useful social safety net in the US can easily lead to chaos for US-based employees who are laid off.

Can you expand on your last point? AFAIK, whe you're part of layoffs you get unemployment benefits.

UC is typically capped at offensively low absolute dollar amounts. For low wage workers it's a decent percentage, for tech workers, especially developers, it's unlikely to be enough to cover your day-to-day bills. I haven't utilized it since the 00's but back then it was capped at something like $700 or $800 per week in my state.

It's been too long to edit, but I just went back and looked. I claimed for a few months in 2009 and it was capped at $675 per 2-week pay period, so about $18k/yr.

> AFAIK, whe you're part of layoffs you get unemployment benefits.

For a limited amount of time and they only cover a portion of your income. I know people who were laid off who had to upend their entire lives as a result. As just one example, their kids schooling was impacted as they had to drop everything and move during the middle of the year. One kid ended up getting held back as a result. They also lost of ton of money because they had quickly sell their home.

Sure.

Anyone working on a sponsored visa has a very short period to find a new job, or they have to leave the country.

Unemployment insurance maximums is below minimum wage in some states (e.g Arizona). In Washington, where I live, it's higher, but would barely cover the typical mortgage payment for an experienced software engineer.

The lack of universal healthcare means that anyone who uses medical services regularly (or has family that does) may end up having to navigate whether or not to find an exchange plan or spend most of their unemployment benefits on COBRA.

COBRA health insurance premiums (especially if you have a family) is what kills you. (Pun intended)

Yep, laid off in the aftermath of the 2000 crash. Not immediately but the company didn’t get funding and cut almost everyone.

It hit me hard at first, but I was very young, just out of college, and adjusted quickly. The market was dead for a while, and I ended up being rehired after 6 months to sweeten the startup right before acquisition (for pennies on the dollar - this startup was seen as a success because it didn’t just fold).

The biggest aftermath is the mental shock of losing employment. I definitely got depressed due to the uncertainty of, well, everything. And when there’s a general glut of people searching, even being contacted by a prospective employer turns into a gamble. There’s a hopelessness that can set in that takes its toll.

I haven’t found much of a stigma from it, socially or professionally. There’s a pretty decent chunk of people who have been unemployed at some point due to a layoff.

My response as someone affected by layoffs, but not because I was laid off.

1. No

2. N/A

3. N/A

But my workload increased drastically after this years cuts. My team has to shoulder additional responsibilities that are neither interesting or fun. I am in Switzerland and in hindsight I would've loved to be offered voluntary redundancy and take home the severance package.

In the same position over the last year our engineering org has been cut to a 1/3rd of what it was. Spent nearly the entire year just cleaning up messes left from teams that were laid off promptly. Wishing each time I was in the layoff round.

I just tell my manager I can only do the work of 1 person. I'm not shouldering more work than I can handle and getting burned out anymore. I'm not here to cover up for a staffing problem. Those problems should bubble up, not down.

I worked 43 years for 3 companies, all in Sunnyvale, and all working with the intelligence community. At some point, all of them had layoffs but, fortunately for me, I was never part of any of them. That said, layoffs affect everyone whether or not you're one of them being let go. Obviously, the impact to those being fired, is immeasurably worse but to those staying, there is a psychological impact. First, there is loss of friends and colleagues with whom you've worked and may have close attachments. The abrupt destruction of that relationship can be quite depressing. Second, there is the unsettling confirmation that your company is unhealthy and that your job could be the next to go. So, yeah, layoffs do have a more widespread impact than just those losing their jobs.

1. Yes, my entire group (about 100+ people) were laid off around a year ago

2. Not sure if it affected my search, but I did find a job that I enjoy more and that is less stressful, and I'm much happier now.

3. Not really. I don't worry about stigma, I don't even accept that the stigma in this case exists. Why should it? An entire group of people were laid off, not just me.

Because I could afford to, I took six months off before even starting to look for a new position. Aside from also recovering from cancer surgery at the same time, I really enjoyed spending a lot of time with my dog before she died, reading books I'd been meaning to read for ages, and slowly thinking about what I want to do next. It took me a month or so of looking to find a new job.

No. But people in my area were laid off. This is usually not a huge deal in western europe because of the notice period. In Germany it's usually 3 months, so if the company tells you "You're out" (which is extremely unlikely btw, you are laid off either if a) you did something terrible, or b) company goes bankrupt), you still have 3 (full) calendar months to find a job and all. Since the 3 months notice period is quite standard in the country, when you apply for a job, they understand that you may join only 3 months from now.

The main (perhaps the only) reason I would never work for American companies is the lack of any laws that prevent them from firing me without notice. It's just so backwards.

> The main (perhaps the only) reason I would never work for American companies is the lack of any laws that prevent them from firing me without notice. It's just so backwards.

You should reconsider this, you can work for American companies from Germany and get the laws on your side.

1. Yes, twice.

2. My first layoff actually helped me in several ways. First, because I was laid off from a place where the owner did his best to have a toxic, bullying environment. Second, because I got a new job pretty quickly, much better paid, with a much better environment and much higher impact.

My second layoff was much more stressful. I got to say goodbye to a company that was very nice to work with but that had money problems, in a period in which finding a new job was harder. I did get one fairly quickly. Lower pay, but still ok, potential to be very interesting, although we're not there yet.

3. I did not suffer from social stigma directly, but I suffered from the fear of social stigma.

I was laid off from a FAANG company I won't name on January 20th. I was, however, given the opportunity to look for a new job internally for three months. Some people got cut off hard, a small number got either 3 or 6 months before their final date. Luckily I found an internal position in a different group. There were few choices, I it was just two positions I had to choose between. But I got to see my layoff package - it was good, I have been here a long time, but I have been through the job hunting process too many times before to be very eager to do it again.

I'm sure a lot of HN readers would tell me I should have taken the package and found a new job elsewhere, but I've worked at startup companies before and I don't think the grass is any greener out there. And perhaps unsurprisingly my new team was happy to have me aboard since hiring has been very limited lately compared to my company's historical norms.

I've been flat-out fired before from other jobs, although not with cause, and it never really affected my job searches before. I think most people believe that their interviewing process works and having seen a lot of smart people come and go I don't think getting either fired or laid off necessarily says anything about anyone. It might, but you need more than that one data point.

I don't feel like I've every faced any social stigma around being either fired or laid off. People have always been pretty sympathetic and supportive towards me, for which I'm grateful.

I worked for a consulting company that was acquired by a much bigger fish. About a year and change after the acquisition was finalized, I was laid off.

To be completely fair to the company (not that they particularly deserve it) I was a very ripe target. I was working on a team which basically did POC development to help with sales - we'd do some initial legwork and demos on various ideas, some directly related to a potential client's project and some based on internal ideas. As a result the percentage of time I was billing to an actual client was very low (but this was by design).

The net result for me was frankly fantastic. I got out of an unfavorable environment, got 6 weeks of severance with some extra money thrown in for COBRA (which I didn't end up needing, so that was just free cash). I had a job lined up almost immediately due to some lucky circumstances, and that was at a brand new consultancy that was still in the spin-up phase, so I essentially got a 6 week paid vacation during which I had no stress about finding the next gig.

No illusions here from me that getting laid off is even close to always being a good thing, I can imagine a dozen ways in which it could have been horribly stressful and financially ruinous, but I look back on getting laid off very fondly :)

Yep, laid off at the beginning of August after just over 2 months at the company. They staffed up to "totally redo the front end" and 2 months later cut us all loose, saying that they were not going to do the project after all. Normally I bounce back from things like this no problem, but in this super dry job market even the recruiters have stopped calling me for 3-month contracts that are 4 states away and require me to be on-site.

1. Yes, twice.

1a. My first job laid me off after 10 months, the CEO decided to relocate the company to the Caribbean for a tax break/shelter, which required hiring 70% local people. As the core company was small, the only people retained were the C-level, VPs, and their secretaries. Only 2 of 10 people from my office were retained (and forced to relocate).

1b. My Second job laid me off after 2 months. This small software company had split in two just before my arrival because the two lead programmers did not get along. I was placed with the disagreeable lead, who didn't want me on his team. When a newly degreed former employee, who left on good terms, stopped by one day looking for a job. My boss volunteered my position. The day before layoff I had talked to my leads boss about the good work I had been doing and the next project I would tackle, the next day they laid me off telling me they decided to go a different direction.

2. Yes, negatively. Both times.

3. Kinda some social stigma after the second layoff. I had relocated for both jobs, and didn't have a great support system either place. After the second layoff, recruiters/hiring managers treated me as I was the problem not just some misfortune.

I am sorry to hear about your negative experiences. Do you think you would ever relocate for a job again? Would a relocation bonus make a difference?

I'd be open to it, but at this point it would highly depend on location and relocation package.

1. Yes, Laid off this year from Big Tech. I had outstanding perf. reviews and was working my ass off prior to the layoff for a promo, even traveling on a company event a week before being affected. I think the company wanted to greatly reduce their headcount in the country I live in, and I was likely axed due to that. Business strategy-wise what they did seemed to be the right thing, but they lost me and other great folks :-)

2. Not at all, obviously the job market wasn't as good as before, so salaries weren't what they were in 2021. Very few North american companies were hiring in Europe with great salaries, and the ones that were, they had Hybrid work policies, when I'd rather work remotely due to living far away from a city center, so the overall market change had an impact, not the layoff itself on myself.

3. The reverse happened. I had an amazing response from all previous work colleagues, that promptly helped me, setting me up for interviews and even finding roles for me.

Because of my network, I could quickly find a new position. I had no idea so many ex-coworkers liked me so much. That made me feel appreciated and in a very comfortable job/work related condition.

I took a paycut though, but going now work that is more meaningful and challenging to me. It's also less intense, so I no longer need to destroy my health in order to do a good job.

For the past years I've been trading my health for putting more hours and effort, now my intention is to get in shape again, live a peaceful life and do work I'm proud of. Being laid off despite my performance made me realize that I shouldn't do much more than my peers if the company isn't mine.

Also starting to scratch my entrepreneurial itch again. I'm glad to be free from the golden handcuffs, sometimes you get a big salary, nice colleagues to work with, exciting work and all, but that will cloud your mind, make you focused on that only, rather than seeing all the other great things you could do with your life.

1. I was a designer at a real estate tech company that was laid off the end of last year (along with like 90% of the company). I joined in June of 2022 and was laid off November of 2022. There was one round of layoffs in July of around 30%, and then another round in November of close to 90%. The company went from somewhere around 60 employees in January of 2022 to close to 350 by June of 2022, then to under 30 in November of 2022. Being in real estate tech, as interest rates rose, platform demand dropped and kept on dropping.

2. I pretty much immediately started job hunting and interviewing, and went through a 9 round interview to land another job (with a 10% pay cut) that I started the end of January this year.

3. Not really. It was a bummer because I was in the process of moving to NYC, and obviously needed to secure a job as quick as possible to secure an apartment. It also sucked to be laid off a few days before my birthday and only a month before Christmas. But luckily I landed something new pretty quick.

1. Yes, multiple times.

2. No at all.

3. Never expirienced social stigma. But my self esteem suffered. There is definetely a psychological damage of a layoff.

It's hard not to take it personally even when it isn't personal!

This is actually really, really important. It sounds so simple.

Self compassion takes a lot of work and I'm still awful at it.

"There was just a better candidate for the job" helps me deal with getting turned down.

You are worth the effort, your work deserves compensation at a reasonable value. You deserve a place and space in the world. You are gonna have to fight for it and you are not guaranteed it either, but you are deserving of it if you put the work in.

Self compassion takes work.

1. Unfortunately yes, at the beginning of the month.

2. Not sure, still searching.

3. As of yet unsure. I'm grateful that no one in my social nor professional circles appears to feel this is a stigma -- most people have expressed sincere regret when hearing about it.

Since I'm in the US, the immediate impact was health insurance, which will run out at the end of this month. COBRA is so expensive that it isn't a real option, so I will have to figure that out, as I take a daily medication that I rely on. Unfortunately, not one of the Obamacare plans I found covers both the medication and the prescribing physician, which is really shitty.

Otherwise, though, the period of rest (working on personal projects and applying to jobs notwithstanding) has been welcome. I'm lucky to have gotten some severance that has been affording me the time off without yet having to tap into my savings.

> Have you ever been laid off from a job for reasons that were not related to your performance?

I haven't been laid off, but we did have some small layoffs this year. After the second one, while no specifics were stated about who was laid off, managers were told the selection criteria included looking for knowledge overlap and seeing who could be lost without losing knowledge. That basically explains my team: the one person we lost had fairly deep knowledge in only a single system, while two others had shallower knowledge in the same system and knowledge in other systems. I'm sure knowledge depth wouldn't have stood out in the performance review documents HR has, so the person we lost probably would have looked redundant to them, even though I suspect that person was trying to position themselves as indispensable.

> 1. Have you ever been laid off from a job for reasons that were not related to your performance?

Yes. Only once, and it happened in March as a part of a cost cutting exercise.

I was working at the company - a product startup - for 2.5 years.

> 2. Did this affect your job search / career afterwards?

No. I went back to my previous employer where I worked for 6 years, they were gracious enough to welcome me back.

The only thing that bothers me at times is the pay differential - I had to take a paycut moving back to my older org.

> 3. Do you feel that being laid off from a job prevented you from recovering due to social stigma around being under / unemployed?

To an extent, yes. The initial days were the hardest as I thought I was untouchable as an employee - I've been a top performer for a majority of my career - so being laid off was definitely a shock.

It took a few weeks to get over it but it was fine as soon as I had a job in hand.

Personally? I was made redundant 20 years ago, and since I was near the start of my career I used the time to try being self employed for a bit then found another job. I did not percieve stigma from having been made redundant, since at that time (end of the first internet boom), there were a lot of other people in the same situation. I think reasonable adults understand that "made redundant" is not a reflection on the individual.

However, in the current wave of redundancies, I've heard quite a few stories from other people about negative effects of redundancy combined with other life events. Being made redundant in the middle of moving house is particularly stressful and costly.

1. Yep. Very small company which made it all the more painful as my former colleagues have become close friends. The hard lesson? The bottom line makes exceptions for no one.

2. Yes and no. Emotionally, yes. I felt a lot more desperate and took negative signals in the process far more personally. No in that I think the market is chilly to begin with and so my layoff was not a contributing factor to how the process went.

3. Nah, if anything it socially improved my life. Got back into touch with a number of former colleagues/friends and had more time to shore up my personal life while going through my job search.

All in all this sucks, no way around it. But we're gonna make it through.

1. I was laid off from a unicorn startup in January, along with about half the company over multiple rounds of layoffs.

2. I received multiple offers for data engineering / data management roles within 2 months.

3. No. All of tech deciding to do cuts is a great cover.

1. Yes

2. No, I was able to get a job lined up even before my last day

3. No. Employers understand layoffs happen, so I don't think it looks bad on a CV that you get laid off. Some people in my life put a stigma on not working, but I'm good at not letting their opinions affect me personally. I do think this stigma exists, in a sense of suffering as a virtue (so if you aren't working, you aren't virtuous). I think there's a valid concern from people uniquely in the US around having certain benefits lapse (health insurance being the biggest one), so a there's a ton of pressure to get back to work ASAP.

(1) Yes, one and a half times. - The one time was due to Corona. The company needed to shrink so my job was cut. - The half time was due to changes in priority for the company. The parent company was in the US and didn't know how to deal with the German labor rights so instead of laying us off my boss made things _very_ miserable for all of us until we quit.

(2) Yes, both times to the better. I learned to pay attention to all these KPIs they keep telling us about in the all-hands and also I am better now to judge companies before I join them.

(3) Nope, not at all.

Since everyone else is replying yes, I'll give the single non-useful response I guess.

1. No

2. N/A

3. N/A

Not non-useful at all if you are willing to answer follow-up questions:

1. How long have you been continually employed for?

2. If more than one job, have you ever moved between jobs?

3. Have you changed jobs due to forces that were outside of your control? (i.e. you chose to move on out of practicality or necessity)

4. If your job moves were unrelated to #3 please expand on why

haha no problem

1. 18 years total, 3 jobs (9 years, 4 years, 5 years).

2. I did choose to relocate for my 3rd job. I was specifically looking for companies in new locations where I wanted to live. I will specify that my job's locations were as follows: in office (10 mile commute, suburb only), fully remote, in office (16 mile commute, suburb and city driving)

3. no

4. n/a

For more context, I should say that I'm no longer at job #3 because I quit to start a new company, but that company did end up doing layoffs, but not for a few months after I left and had I stayed I wouldn't have been affected. Every time I've gotten a new job it's because I've decided I wanted to pursue something else.

Your replies make a lot of sense, and it's an interesting contrast with some of the other negative experiences in the comments.

Can you think of anything in particular that you did that helped you get ahead of any of these "out of your control" type disruptions that seem to derail and upend other peoples careers? I don't want to talk about dumb luck... maybe it's soft skills?

Or maybe it was it just dumb luck? Being in good places at the right time consistently in your career? I want to believe there's more than that but also sometimes life is unexplainable and that's also a valid but unfulfilling answer to these kinds of broadly too-vague questions.

I am trying to move past the knee-jerk resentment I feel for folks that have been successful. I want to understand what they have done differently from myself so I can try to better align myself with people and society.

Really appreciate the comments, thanks

Most of my friends in tech are mostly on sabbaticals. On occasions they pick up some work.

For the past 5 years I have been working only freelance or through my own agency. Naturally, there are often times between gigs, as is the case now. The main difference is that I now want to enter full-time employment and leaving freelancing behind.

I am definitely struggling with the narrative going into the world of full time employment, as it seems to be the expectation to have unbroken employment records.

1. Yes, I worked for a travel company at the start of COVID. They went bankrupt within a month of lockdowns starting.

2. A bit. I took that job because they offered me a lot of money, and in the end I really enjoyed working there, I still hand out with people I met there now. But I knew I wanted to work at a startup, so once I knew we were going bankrupt I limited my search to startups I liked the look of.

3. No. I got another job pretty quickly, as did most of my co-workers.

1 yes (company closure)

2 Not great short-term (got the first job I could), but turned out better in the long run (got a much better job few months after)

3 Not really: Was unemployed for under 1 month, and was honest about the interim job just being a means to an end while interviewing for better job.

Getting laid off is a part of life, happens to the majority nowadays. It's what you do (or can bullshit you're doing) between jobs that will count.

1. Yes, due to Covid -- more or less, at least it was a convenient excuse.

2. Absolutely not -- got a far better job offer 3 months after and took it: Better pay, more interesting projects, hands-on experience with big clients.

3. No, being unemployed for a short while does not carry social stigma where I come from. It does if you are unemployed for a longer period of time though.

Yes i was laid off with 20 other people.

Got 6 weeks worth of salary, managed to find a job within a month or so, so it wasnt too bad, but i only got the same salary (i didnt ask for more since i needed a job :D, its different if one does not need a new job)

It didnt feel good but i shacked my feelings of and moved on pretty quickly.

1. Yes, within the last 24 months.

2. Yes. Either you bring it up and people think you must be low performer, or you don't and you feel like you're deceitful.

3. Yes.

Felt like a career-ending failure.

Took about a year to get over it emotionally.

Good came of it as it pushed me to finally become serious about self-employment after years of inaction.

1: Yes. Has happened 3 times in my career, most recently this past May.

2: Minimally. I was asked for the reason for my departure, and I was transparent as I could be, indicating what I knew and the circumstances. People were curious about it, but then again, its not relevant to finding new work. I will say that I found that multiple potential employers concluded successful interviews with unrelated programming tests. It felt like a set of coffin problems[1], that older folks like me, not trained in CS, but writing code for 40+ years, would not do well on.

This is a huge red flag. I actually had someone tell me that I 'needed to know how to program' to do the job I'd applied for, even though I have a public documented history of programming and software development/engineering, have developed and shipped code for decades, for research, products, patches, ...

That impacted search a bit.

3: There's not much of a stigma these days. Your self worth is not tied up in your job. Your value isn't either. You can take time to decompress, retool, think, train, research.

Put another way, if an employer thinks its a problem, you might want to steer clear of that employer. Bring the conversation quickly to a close, amicably, so you don't waste time and create bad feelings.

On jobs in general, employers generally are their to please and profit their owners. Understanding all their actions in terms of this (HR is there to protect the employer, etc.) can help you separate your sense of self worth from the position or company.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/gxpoyo/soviet_coffin_...

I once had a startup fire me after only 6 weeks, for performance reasons, which were purely a fabrication. I'm not sure if that counts.

It was not a good experience for me, but I did not feel like it had any long term consequences.

Yes, no, no. Losing a job is very traumatic for most people, layoff or otherwise.

I ended up at a body shop shortly after which helped me gain some perspective.

1. Yes, once.

2. There was some impact, since I had to take a job at a lower pay than I wanted. There wasn't any impact on the search itself, though.

3. No.

yes, and I found a new gig within a week. I also refrained from making a linkedin post including a selfie of myself crying

Have you ever experienced an extended period of unemployment, or have you been able to hold down a steady job for the duration of your career?

I know it’s emotionally difficult to be unemployed, but I also think a huge percentage of people simply don’t understand the most effective ways to obtain a job.

When I’ve talked to long term unemployed people in the past, I tend to find their perception of the effort involved is not what it ought to be. Specifically, I hear about how they can’t find the right job, or that they’re only applying to a handful of positions.

What they seem to not understand is the numbers game involved. Applying thoughtfully to ~10 jobs a day is extremely doable, and is the kind of effort that a person may need to put in to quickly find another job. Hundreds upon hundreds of positions over a month will almost invariably result in an offer and if it doesn’t, you need coaching to figure out what you’re doing wrong.

It’s hard to find a job yes, but it’s a kind of hard that responds well to additional effort.

You think unemployed people looking for work aren't already applying to ~10 jobs a day?

Based on the conversations I’ve had with folks who are long term unemployed, yes. I’ve not yet spoken with someone who has consistently hit that 10 high quality apps/day metric for over a month and not walked away with a job.

From my experience, there tends to be something holding the chronically unemployed back that is blindingly obvious to everyone else, but that the unemployed person either doesn’t want to see or can’t.

> there tends to be something holding the chronically unemployed back that is blindingly obvious to everyone else, but that the unemployed person either doesn’t want to see or can’t.

This is true in my experience as well. The only exception I can think of was a very smart guy (Phd) who had severe autism and really struggled to speak with other people. It's just hard for him to make that conversion even though he is well aware.

This shouldn't be controversial. Finding a job is a sales problem and most people are not good at or trained in sales.

Besides shear numbers, they only look in obvious places. The worst case is people only applying to listings on big sites for remote jobs.

Not since I got the ol' FAANG on the CV

DId you at least post about how grateful you were for having the opportunity to work with some of the brightest people you've ever met?

I absolutely LOATH that line - are people using chatgpt or just copy/pasting what others are writing? Its so fake and ridiculous

1) yes 2) yes, the experience from the job I was laid off from helped me get a new job. 3) not at all

Yes, things were much better as a result, no.

> Have you ever been laid off from a job for reasons that were not related to your performance?

Yes

> Did this affect your job search / career afterwards?

> Do you feel that being laid off from a job prevented you from recovering due to social stigma around being under / unemployed?

Now is the time to skim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_life-cycle_management_.... (FYI: If you're making big bucks, you're only "worth it" in the growth stage and the early maturity stage. You're not "worth it" in the "Saturation and Decline" stage, unless you can figure out how to move within your company.)

Basically, I was laid off when the product I worked on was transitioning from "Maturity" to "Saturation and Decline." The startup I joined 9 years earlier was bought and sold a few times, and I wasn't crazy about the company that finally purchased us. I smelt that severance packages were available, dropped a big hint, and was laid off about a month or two later. (The details are confidential, but let's just say that I was on severance at the beginning of Covid! It was wonderful because I had very young children.)

Initially I had so many interviews that I thought I was going to get a job before the severance ran out. If it wasn't for Covid, I probably would have too.

The bigger issue with a layoff isn't employability; it's how you approach looking for a job. What I realized by the time that I found my job was that:

1: Most companies hiring don't want to match my expected salary as a mid-career highly experience engineer that shipped industry leading products. They'd rather take a chance on cheaper, inexperienced engineers.

2: I don't have the patience for poorly-run companies. (Because I've seen it all and have very high standards.)

3: I needed to apply to about 50+ jobs.

4: The bar is much, much higher when you're experienced. It's much harder to try a new technology entering a job if you're coming in as experienced. (I have 20 years of C#, and I couldn't get into a Rust job that I wanted with the pay I wanted.)

5: The "stigma" of a layoff only hurts your chances with poorly-run companies. As long as you discuss it in terms of the product lifecycle and imply a "happy ending," no one will care.

After a false start with one company (see item #2,) I found my current job, which is awesome.

The very important thing to realize is that you're going to have to apply to a lot of jobs. I personally don't believe that ageism is real; but if you're mid career, the expectation is that you can perform at a mid-career level. If you're performing on-par with an early-career engineer, then you need to "pivot" and direct yourself to take advantage of your strengths.

Edit:

As someone else mentioned, it's a lot easier to search for a job when you don't have to juggle a full-time job. I took a "relaxed" pace of waiting for the monthly "Who wants to be hired" thread, jumping on it, and riding out the interviews, ect, for the rest of the month. If I was desperate, I would have taken the "your job is finding a job" approach.

However, as I mentioned that I had to apply to 50+ jobs... It's really, really hard to do that while having a full time job. I wouldn't have the bandwidth to do that and a full-time job, because I probably put 100+ hours into my job search. I don't get to put 100 hours a year into my hobbies!

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