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Comment by derstander | Hacker News Reader

> Lichess, legally, is now a charitable organization

I’m not saying Lichess will do something like this, but have you heard the saga of the Environmental Research Institute of Michigan (ERIM)?

It grew out of the University of Michigan — as a non-profit. Its president and board spun off a for-profit subsidiary owning the majority of its work, people, and assets and leaving a small fraction for the non-profit.

Then, the for-profit entity was bought by a succession of other entities: Veridian, General Dynamics, and now MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates.

I only learned of this while working with a graybeard from the original ERIM during their General Dynamics days — he was still sore about it.

So never doubt a president/ceo and board if they’re really determined in going for-profit!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Research_Insti...

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National Geographic is a similarly sad tale.

> working with a graybeard

This language is offensive (to me [0]) and sexist. Feel free to use it if it really floats your boat, but you could get the same effect without the implicit sexism just using "oldster". You could also say "older colleague", or even just "person".

[0] and I don't even have a beard

Thank you for sharing your feelings on this one, I hadn't heard of "graybeard" categorized that way by anyone before, though I can see your point-of-view and respect it.

That being said, if the person was an actual human being, and subsequently had a graybeard (as I do!) - would that still be offensive?

I don't intend to be combative, simply trying to learn!

If you really feel that they color and presence of their facial hair was the best way to describe whatever it was that felt relevant to mentioning them, I can't really call that offensive.

But the term "graybeard" is known in these circles as a reference to an older, always male, programmer.

What actually matters is that they've been around the block enough times to understand (for example) that Rust probably will not solve every programming issue known to current programmers. Their gender and facial hair status is not really relevant. "Corner office grump" would be another term that I'd find entirely acceptable: non-gendered, unconcerned with physical appearance, but encapsulating much the same sort of personality that "graybeard" is attempting to evoke.

Old women grow beards too, though it is very unfashionable at the moment. British comedian Liza Tarbuck did an entertaining and thought provoking piece on the subject a few years ago but I was disappointed to learn that the beard she sported was stuck on rather than home grown.

He was in fact an old male with a gray beard and actually referred to himself as such.

To respond to your descendant response to a sibling comment, he was not, however, a programmer: he was an engineer.

This sort of deliberate bad faith interpretation of another's comment is the worst form of virtue signaling hysterics I've witnessed outside of a lab.

The OP is referring to a specific person (and used the pronoun 'he'). It is in fact not considered by any reputable etymological source as a slur or as a sexist term in any capacity.

I've seen complaints about it on HN before, so don't go claiming that this has never come up before.

The term is widely used by younger programmers in online discussions to refer to unnamed (and it oftens seems as if the name is almost not actually known) older programmers. I've seen it on HN, Reddit, Twitter (RIP) and Mastodon. It's not a reference to specific person, it's a reference to a perceived role.

Even if a person has/had a gray beard, why is that the characteristic used to describe them?

And it is sexist only in an implicit sense: it is obviously a term used to describe (a) only men (b) older programmers. There is absolutely no chance that someone says "I talked to a graybeard about it" to mean that they spoke to a (older) female programmer.

> Even if a person has/had a gray beard, why is that the characteristic used to describe them?

It's been programmer's slang for a very, very long time. At least back to the '70s.

I'm a graybeard, and I don't avoid using the term, nor do I find it offensive. It just means someone who's been doing this for a long time.

> There is absolutely no chance that someone says "I talked to a graybeard about it" to mean that they spoke to a (older) female programmer.

Since I've absolutely heard it used in reference to female programmers, there is more than "no chance".

In my experience, it's a bit like the term "guys". It may have been gendered at first, but it has largely lost the gendered connotations.

> graybeard

It's generally a term of respect for a more senior, knowledgable person.

> oldster

Isn't that ageist?

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