Microsoft will stop old Windows keys from activating new Windows installs | Hacker News Reader

Microsoft will stop old Windows keys from activating new Windows installs

arstechnica.com

Microsoft seems to be very confused on how to monetize Windows (for end user computing at least). It seems like they jump back and forth between:

"Do we include ads?"

"Sell telemetry data?"

"Try to force users to use our browser/search engine to generate ad impressions?"

"Should we just make the whole thing free?"

Personally, I wish they'd just make home editions free as in beer, make it up by charging businesses the CAL bullshit and office/o365 licenses. They need to develop and support those things anyways, home user revenue must be a drop in the bucket compared to Azure/O365. Especially since OEM PC/laptop purchases generate even less revenue for the Windows license included.

Doing so would also make sure your user base is familiar with using Windows on their home devices and carry that over to business use cases. Otherwise tablets not running Windows will continue to eat their lunch.

I keep wondering lately what would happen if/when ReactOS becomes mature enough to be usable beyond curious experimentation. For the first time in a long while Microsoft will have to compete with something that has a switching cost close to zero and is free and doesn't do any of the telemetry and dark patterns and other stuff to appease the stakeholders.

There's no organized effort to roll out ReactOS as a first party supported OS on real hardware. I could imagine a future where the EU funds its development to break away from foreign-owned OSes but that's a long shot and they'd probably be more effective just funding development for the Linux based ecosystem.

Do you think that’s likely to ever actually happen? It has had well over twenty years and isn’t there yet.

I think SteamOS has more traction and momentum, it seems at least in my family and friend group most people just use a tablet (iPad, almost exclusively) for leisure computing and not a laptop anymore.

So, that leaves pretty much gamers as a heavy Windows home userbase.

I'm sure there's more to the story, those are just my observations of my social circle.

I am glad you used leisure computing an not working. I never experienced anyone doing serious creative work in the sense of creating something on a tablet.

In essence they are devices to give your personal data to a third party.

>I never experienced anyone doing serious creative work in the sense of creating something on a tablet.

You must not know many illustrators, which is understandable, but I’m not sure I follow the overall point. Are you saying home users still need something to replace Windows for non leisure computing?

The age of ReactOS is less relevant than the development velocity; they're chasing a moving target, albeit with the advantage of only needing to implement the features that end users and third-party software actually need.

> The age of ReactOS is less relevant than the development velocity

Sure, so what's the development velocity now and did it increase recently? And for when is an actual usable version planned? Alongside GNU Hurd?

IMO win32 isn't much of a moving target any more. Microsoft stopped significantly evolving it around after Windows 7, instead switching to their modern .net-based stuff like UWP.

ReactOS as a full-time replacement for Windows would probably have to implement UWP eventually, too. But I do think Microsoft's velocity of adding useful, desirable features has been slowing down, so it's more plausible for Wine and ReactOS to catch up in the ways that matter.

Honest question, is there any important UWP software? I mostly see it as a gimmick that very few people outside of Microsoft take seriously.

From what I’ve seen the newer UWP descendant WinUI/Windows App SDK is starting to get some traction. Apple uses it for some of its newer Windows software (beta Apple Music client among others), presumably because they want their apps to look at home on modern Windows with the newer more pretty UI widgets. Some indie app devs also use it, and MS has transitioned Power Tools to it.

Wine is also a very old project but only somewhat recently has it become practical and started being taken seriously.

ReactOS is more complex than that, because they can't take any of the shortcuts Wine did, AND they have to implement a kernel that mimics the Windows NT kernel in enough detail so Windows drivers could run unmodified. But then they have the benefit that once there is enough compatibility, ReactOS will be able to run on a vast number of hardware configurations, taking full advantage of said hardware. Unlike Haiku — which still doesn't support any form of video acceleration for example.

If it ever comes close to that the Federal government will ban it. They aren't going to run a Russian funded and built OS on government computers, OSS or not.

ReactOS's mere existence doesn't mean it is actually competing in a meaningful way. People use Windows on PCs because it is what is preinstalled from OEMs, not because they made a conscious decision to choose the OS.

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...

If you want to replace MacOS or Windows dominance, you don't need a better OS. You need an OS that is preinstalled on hardware that people buy.

Which is nearly impossible to do unless you also own the hardware. It's allegedly one reason BeOS failed, OEMs almost unanimously refused to offer it on their hardware because of the threat of losing their Windows licenses. There was a pretty big lawsuit about it that ended with a settlement and MS not admitting anything.

> "I keep wondering lately what would happen if/when ReactOS becomes mature enough to be usable beyond curious experimentation."

Nothing. ReactOS is a Windows XP / Windows Server 2003 implementation and just about nobody is making Windows XP compatible drivers for current hardware.

they will have GUI setup soon

https://reactos.org/project-news/hermes-belusca-hired-full-t...

That would be an introduction to antitrust similar to Google experiencing it with making Android free.

Continuing that thought, a free OS would hurt other (free) OS's, further hurting competition.

It wouldn't. You can already download and use Windows for free (without activating the product). Consumers, broadly, don't seem to be aware of this however and the vast majority of consumer PC builds are sold through large builders that have Windows install deals with Microsoft (so there's no point for most people to use a non-activated copy of Windows).

Afaik Google gets a fee from the OEM for the play store/Google Apps.

Microsoft have no idea what they are doing. They just throw poo at everything and keep what sticks.

Everything is however, still covered in poo.

In all fairness though they do a much better job than Google. Azure certainly is a gold mine.

> Azure certainly is a gold mine.

I sometimes dream about Microsoft selling Windows. (Because they see it as cost center and make money elsewhere... Or whatever its a dream ok.) It gets picked up by a smoll private company that's just in the business of making a good OS. teary eyes

The purpose of this announcement is to muddle the search for "microsoft key," since for some reason it is finally making the news how catastrophic the Microsoft key breach was. It is similar to https://gizmodo.com/did-boris-johnson-ramble-about-model-bus... .

What key breach?

Email signing key https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2023/07/14/ana...

I find the argument completely unconvincing though. That two things which regularly happen are aligned in the news cycle is not reasoning, let alone something so certain to state as if it could only be fact.

Except it's so common it's literally a marketed service of PR firms. This isn't a conspiracy, it's something you can legally buy on the open market. Any company with more than a hundred people should be assumed to at least have conversations with an "image management" consultancy, and bigger/richer companies should be assumed to have an entire team either internally or contracted full time.

It is a conspiracy (a conspiracy actually requires it be possible to do in the first place as conspiracy doesn't mean "crazy impossible thing that can't happen"), but that's complexly beside the point I'm making and the distraction it provides is expressly why I didn't say the issue with the reasoning was it's a conspiracy.

Even if we assume with 100% certainty Microsoft was/is actively interested in engage in a conspiracy to muddy news around "Microsoft keys" they know they don't actually need to bother with all that simply because "Microsoft keys" are already a regular news subject - without hiring a PR firm or actively pushing the news. And this is all besides the points of arguing whether the key signing news is "just now" blowing up in order to even make the two events seem to align.

Besides, the truth of "few reading the news actually give a shit about understanding email security keys but anything about free ways to activate Windows changing regularly makes a more popular story" is far more interesting anyways because no amount of wishing the problem was actually a few PR people at $EvilCorp controlling the media instead of people simply not caring will ever explain why the email news story never got to the same popularity in the months and updates (and following month) since it has been out there.

I don't believe you, but I also can't unsee it.

We will soon BREACH the ability of users to use certain KEYs to activate windows. Use of these KEYs is a BREACH of our terms of service which we consider KEY to user SECURITY.

The original Microsoft announcement didn't even use the word key once though, so I'm doubtful

You already can use Windows for free.

It has very few restrictions if you don't activate, including being unable to change the background image in settings (but you can do it other ways trivially) and it has a watermark that indicates it hasn't been activated yet (someone has probably already figured out how to remove that). You get updates and there is no nag screen that constantly bothers you.

https://www.howtogeek.com/244678/you-dont-need-a-product-key...

> background image in settings (but you can do it other ways trivially

Just select a picture file in the Explorer (or a picture in the most browsers), right click, set as desktop wallpaper. Yes, the only thing blocked is the official settings menu.

> watermark that indicates it hasn't been activated yet (someone has probably already figured out how to remove that

Which is quite amusing because it's really easier to install non-home version and use KMS activation than patch (and maintain) the anti-watermark patches.

Still, there is a difference between running an illegal copy and legal and free copy.

Can you receive updates through windows update officially? I remember that used to be locked down without registration

The non-activated OS will continue to receive major updates including updates related to security. Microsoft isn't well served to have a lot of non-activated copies out there acting as at-risk security zombies.

Yes, you can. I'm less sure about "receiving updates for other ms products", but I never really knew what that did anyway.

Unlicensed Windows also doesn’t let you turn on dark mode which is irritating with how blindingly bright modern light mode UI designs have been ever since “flat and square” became the dominant UI design in Windows 8. I wish the more middle-colored light mode designs of the past would return.

> OEM PC/laptop purchases generate even less revenue for the Windows license included

286 million PCs shipped in 2022. [1] Subtract 20% for Apple [2] and Linux, multiply by the commonly quoted $50 average OEM license fee [3][4] and you get $11+ billion. Not exactly peanuts.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/273495/global-shipments-...

[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/576473/united-states-qua...

[3] https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-OEM-manufacturer...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows#...

Friendly reminder: in EU it's LEGAL to buy resold software licenses even if explicitly forbidden by the EULA.

So those $10-$30 Windows licenses are LEGAL if you buy them from a reputable reseller.

> An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his "used" licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet. The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale

[PDF] https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/201...

https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/50462/is-resale-of-w...

What does this have to do with you being able to upgrade to a different software with the same license? they can just block upgrades to 10/11 or even 11 only

At no time did Microsoft (or most software companies) say you can forever upgrade to new versions of Windows for free.

If someone is blocked from upgrading, they might consider buying a "used" license instead of a new one.

My Windows 11 install recently was already such a pain in the ass. I had to open a command prompt and enter in some commands just to be able to install Win11 without a fucking M$ account. Seriously not even disconnecting LAN gives you the option. It was a new install and it worked using the "key" or activation from my previous Win10 install that I used a 10€ win7 key for. I do not think I have the key in my bios because its self build rig that I bought without windows.

I still need windows for playing AAA games unfortunately. I am going back to cracking windows if they not allow to activate it with some cheap win7 key. They already spy on me, try to force me to use a fucking online account for a OS, that is insanity why should I feel the need to give them money? When I was young I just did not give a fuck and was poor, I never really had a "moral" thought about cracking my windows, it just what my friends and I always did. We saved the money for a better rig instead. But when I learned about the win7 key method for win10 so I bought myself one on ebay once.

But now that M$ has evolved into a digital bully I even feel good about it. They are not even offering a "get out of jail" option that cuts all the ads and spying for a extortion fee right? They want both my money and my data. They are not getting it! Well at least I hope so I used https://github.com/builtbybel/BloatyNosy to try to disable all the spying after installing with a local only account.

Valve is unfortunately still not all the way there with Proton. But I think there will be a day in my life where I will remove my Windows partition with great pleasure and only use Linux.

Can't imagine anyone shelling out $200 for Windows license for personal use.

I've done it, back when it was the product.

Now I am the product, I'm less inclined to ever do so again.

I didn't mind paying for Windows 2000 or Windows 7. In exchange for my money, I received a good product and good customer support and service - even free upgrades years later.

There is no reason to, you can pick up a pro license on sale for $40 nowadays.

How? Where? Asking for a friend.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/get-windows-10-free-or-...

https://www.kinguin.net/category/67756/windows-10-profession...

Kinguin is one of the largest key reseller portals. It's a legal business. The catch is that some keys don't work and some of the sellers are unreliable. It's not illegal to sell Windows keys however, so Microsoft has been unable to shut down the reseller market (if they could they would, and they certainly have the financial & legal muscle to stop a site like Kinguin instantly if it were illegal).

The Tom's Hardware link covers some of that ground. And note that if you buy a key from one of Kinguin's resellers, make sure you buy the online activation version of Windows (otherwise you'll end up on the phone with Microsoft and they'll have to assist you in activation, which they may or may not be inclined to do).

Woot.com still has Win10 and Win11 home/pro license keys for $35-40

https://computers.woot.com/plus/computer-software-galore

i bought one from etsy

You can get it on Gamespot Deals [1]

[1] https://deals.gamespot.com/sales/microsoft-windows-11-pro?sc...

Single-digit prices on ebay are not uncommon either.

A $1000 laptop with a $200 Windows license is still cheaper than a $1500 Mac with "free" macOS.

Sure but then you're using some cheap plastic Acer piece of trash.

That's more in the $300-500 range.

I'm sorry to say that paying more for a Windows laptop only makes the number on the spec sheet get bigger, it doesn't ever seem to actually change the build quality.

https://www.acer.com/us-en/laptops/aspire/aspire-7-intel/pdp...

One can always find bad deals if they're inclined enough.

However they can also research about good Windows/Linux laptops and contribute to the conversation.

Some models among these are great: Thinkpad (these are legendary), TP Yogas, LG grams (ultra slim with almost a day of battery life), Dell enterprise line. I'm sure there's more.

And has shit performance, shit battery life, and runs shit hot compared to that Mac.

Intel macs did not do great on the whole "runs shit hot" front.

Nor the performance front, as they were always throttled for thermal reasons. Thankfully they slapped their forehead and said "Doy! We hired the best chip designers in the world for a reason, guys!"

Do they still sell Intel Macs? If not that's not a problem you need to concern yourself with.

I'd always go for a Mac until I can't these days. It's my default computer recommendation. Not in budget, need to play games, need to do something Apple doesn't want you to? Guess it's not gonna be the MacBook then. But otherwise? Get the Mac. Best laptop I've ever owned.

I'd rather not have the $200 windows license at all and just use linux

Is it really though, when you consider the realistic lifespan of the device? I literally got 10 years of use out of a 2011 MacBook pro, and I now run a second-hand 2018 Macbook Pro which is still going strong, despite being an Intel the performance is still fine, and it should hit the 10 year mark as well.

I don’t think there are many other brands getting a real 10 years of use.

> Is it really though, when you consider the realistic lifespan of the device

Define 'realistic' while excluding fanboying.

My T440 (2013) is running fine.

My desktop was first built on EPoX EP-MF4 Ultra-3 (~2007) and run Vista, was 'upgraded' to GA-Z77X (~2012) somewhere in 2016 and went out of use ~2019 when I was forced to relocate and use that T440 exclusively 'till 2021.

Just because someone has a different opinion to you, it doesn’t mean they’re fanboying. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant; it’s well known that average Mac ownership costs are lower than the average PC. Straight from the horses mouth: “IBM confirms that Macs are $535 less expensive than PCs”

https://www.jamf.com/blog/debate-over-ibm-confirms-that-macs...

> Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant

Says the guy citing "I literally got 10 years of use out of a 2011 MacBook pro" from himself.

> it’s well known

For a business user. Are a business user? Do you understand the needs of the business user? Do you have the same needs as the business user?

My answer on that for you would be a solid 'No' for all questions, because you are a home user.

> IBM confirms that Macs are $535 less expensive than PCs

LOL. You just searched the Internet and copypasted the first article which suited your anecdote? The thing you quote is the title and can't be found in the article.

Now let's actually read the article and bash you:

>> But isn’t it expensive, and doesn’t it overload IT? No. IBM found that not only do PCs drive twice the amount of support calls, they’re also three times more expensive. That’s right, depending on the model, IBM is saving anywhere from $273 - $543 per Mac compared to a PC, over a four-year lifespan. “And this reflects the best pricing we’ve ever gotten from Microsoft,” Previn said. Multiply that number by the 100,000+ Macs IBM expects to have deployed by the end of the year, and we’re talking some serious savings.

Because you are a home user with a ten years old MacBook, you don't understand what:

There is only a limited variations of Macs ever. Because mighty A just don't make many variants. There are thousands of variants of PCs even from IBM/Lenovo itself, not even including the top dogs like DELL and HP/E. Less SKUs => less variants to support, less cost to support and... less variants if you need something what Tim Apple doesn't allows you to do.

It's over 4 year lifespan. Nobody keeps enterprise client hardware for 10 years. There is no analysis from IBM how much it would cost them to keep Macs for ten years.

Nobody upgrades the client machines in the enterprise. You surely 'upped' your 2011 MacBook with more memory, SSD drive and whatever, right? Well, in the enterprise you just get a new machine 3 or 4 years later. That's how they work. 'Old' machine + two new machines are cheaper than a 10 year old PC? Lol.

Oh and it's from $273. For a small subset of machines they replace with Macs ie most likely the notebooks for the lowest bunch.

And finally and most importantly: it's ownership cost for the enterprise. YOUR cost of ownership is essentially zero (do you pay yourself for the support calls for your own MacBook?). You are a home user. You are not a business user and ownership cost is not applicable for you, you don't have a helpdesk, you don't manage a fleet of MacBooks, you don't have the whole departments which works on supporting the hard and software for internal business users.

Last version of win10 LTSC is the only version worth paying for

I thought that was also the version that isn't available for retail sale to individuals.

You can jump through a lot of hoops and become a registererd IoT vendor. It's like playing the old Douglas Adams Infocom game Bureaucracy. Big endorphin rush when you finally get to the endgame.

I have so far had to reinstall Windows 11 4 times. One of those times was a failed motherboard but 3 of them were Windows and its updates breaking the installation in some way and I was unable to work out how to fix it without reinstalling. If they move to keys not working again I loose something they have offered to me.

Microsoft really needs to work out what it intends to do for money in the future around Windows. I do not want ads, telemetry and all the other garbage and I certainly wont pay for it.

Typically you can boot from a Windows ISO USB / recovery partition and ask it to repair the main install.

And does it fix it, typically, or is it like the network troubleshooter that never finds anything wrong and just gives up?

In my experience the later. I have tried it a few times over the years and its never worked.

Experiences differ. I run 4 windows PCs in my household, one has been on a single install since windows 8,just in place upgrading and moving on. Needed some hacks to get 11 installed since the cpu is unsupported but worked without any problems nevertheless.

I reinstalled Windows XP so many times, I ended up memorizing the CD key. I still remember parts of it!

The immediate flashback from reading your message: J3QQ4 (but that was probably Windows 98)

FCKGW-... is the OG XP key.

Someone call me?

Worked in an IT dept in early 2000's, still recall the office 2000 key code we used, fairly good for passwords honestly.

Office 97 was easier - 7777-7777777

I think 1111-111111111 worked too

CGJ2M-CFTXY-W4RBJ-BWTGB-VH2CB

Some have speculated that this is why https://old.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/16to3w3/it_has_fina... stopped working. I think this is a more reasonable motive than what is being discussed right now in this thread.

Kind of unfortunate timing as I recently decided to make it a priority to upgrade a VM Windows 7 install this way. I actually started the process a week before the deadline but ran into a cryptic error I didn't have time to resolve.

I just ordered a new PC - pulled the old SSD from my i7-6700 and shoved it into my new PC - changed BIOS boot settings and it booted up - it took a few minutes to load new drivers.

Windows 11 Pro non OEM key.

After booting it complained about activation, but I just re-activated it - very impressed and revealed I did not spend a day to install and reconfigure - it was new CPU - new motherboard - new GPU.

I am safe if I take Windows 10 from a 2014 laptop and use it to build a desktop. Right?

You're breaking the license agreement (licenses are tied to the hardware and die with the hardware) but there's no technical limitations, no.

Oh, wow. I did not somehow know that. What would entail if they were to enforce it? Do they even enforce this?

Not for consumers. Probably a big stick over the head if you tried this in a business. Get sued if you did this at a repair shop (pretty sure there's been several cases)

As I understand that restriction has been ruled invalid in the EU[1]. I don't know what the situation is in the US.

[1] Case C-128/11. European Court of Justice. USEDSOFT GmbH vs. ORACLE INTERNATIONAL CORP

What's the point, honestly?

Shareholders.

Really they should be fine with licensing to OEMs with it free to install for those that wreck their PC.

Great ... typical Microsoft again, unlimited greed.

I was planning to redo my laptop, put in some new drives, remove old ones, maybe upgrade the gpu if possible at all. It would mean installing win10 again, but it has a built-in windows 8 key. So that would mean I'd have to double pay.

I'm pretty sure this is against some law in the EU at least.

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