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SirMaster

But why is happiness later better than happiness now?

So it only matters how you feel about it at the end?

IMO the journey is more important than the end.

I’m just asking open ended questions here. I don’t have any answers.

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> But why is happiness later better than happiness now?

When you work on something you love, you don't see it as a burden, though sometimes it might objectively be a burden. There's no trade-off between happiness now and happiness later in that case.

Perhaps part of it is whether one has the disposition to find happiness in things that are hard work. Perception matters. If changing diapers and looking after infants and toddlers in general is your idea of a bad time, it shouldn't surprise if you then find that you have a bad time doing it. On the other hand if you see changing diapers and all that as incidental to a great adventure, then you're going to be happy to do those chores, and very happy overall.

> IMO the journey is more important than the end.

The journey to where? To death. There's no other end. Therefore we must enjoy the journey -- make it fulfilling, joyful, enjoyable. But how? We are not all born into great wealth, so most of us have to work hard some of the time in order to have great fun the rest of the time. If we see downtime-enabling hard work as a serious burden, we're not likely to enjoy the journey.

Parenting is like that, and like many creative activities it is intrinsically rewarding. In any creative endeavor, your creations may outlast you, and that may make the endeavor more meaningful than a more hedonistic life. Parenting is a creative endeavor; the knowledge that you'll be remembered long after you're gone is part of the reward of parenting, but the love of parenting while you're doing it is much greater still.

> When you work on something you love, you don't see it as a burden

So people who don't love their job should not have kids, got ya. By not having kids you can live so cheaply that you barely need to work a job. If kids means you spend 8 hours a day being miserable and the rest of the time worrying about it then kids will make you miserable.

That's a very negative way to look at it. For one, you could just, you know, find a job you like doing. Also, you might have one partner stay at home. There's lots of ways to make it work without ending up hating the enterprise.

> you could just, you know, find a job you like doing

And if you fail? Do you still recommend having kids? In my experience there is great overlap between not wanting kids and hating work, for such people kids would likely ruin their life. Fathers being miserable and some killing themselves due to having to work jobs they hate so much is common, people just don't want to live like that.

I had a coworker at an old job get laid off and was only able to find work stocking vending machines. He eventually killed himself, leaving behind a wife and daughter. Not everyone can find a job they like doing; in fact, it's a massive privilege.

> But why is happiness later better than happiness now?

Here are a few more to ponder:

- Why does the squirrel bury nuts in the warmer months instead of eating them right away?

- Why save money instead of spending every paycheck?

- Why not spend every day gaming, drinking and smoking?

True, however there's no guarantee that children will take care of you later, many such cases where it doesn't happen. But still, I get your point about hedonism, the Greeks thought about this often.

I think the long-term satisfaction of having happy, healthy adult children is a little deeper than how well they take care of you in old age.

For some people, not for all. What if your kids hate you or you hate them? More common than people think.

In America’s cruel and highly individualistic society, while I wouldn’t say it’s the majority, it’s certainly a sizable percentage of people that hate their children or their parents. I think a lot of it stems from the lack of safety nets, for profit healthcare, etc where having children results in increasing the financial burden on oneself. While all countries experience population declines as they become more developed, I think the association between that and the animosity people have toward children (and as a result, eventually, people have toward their parents) is much more variable. The US is one of the few wealthy countries where having a family can cause you to lose your job, be forced into medical debt, have to pay ridiculous child care and educational costs. The undoubtedly breeds resentment toward children and in some cases much worse behavior. During my own childhood, things weren’t even as egregious as they are now in terms of the ratio of wages to the cost of basic needs (food, housing, healthcare) and this was already obvious. I remember people behaving abusively to their children in grocery store lines and invoking how much was being spent on them, my friends being sent to school sick because their parents couldn’t afford to miss work, and myriad other signs of this. I can’t imagine what it’s like in 2023.

I am okay with this outcome. Better than no children at all.

You do you. For me, no children at all is the better outcome.

People don't necessarily have children in order to be taken care of later. People have children because that's what people do, reproduction being one of life's joys and purpose.

The experience of raising a child, watching them grow, and seeing them prosper in the world is the reward. I don't expect them to care for me when I'm old.

There’s a distinction between pleasure and happiness.

- why cultivate friendships, have experiences like travel, build hobbies and skills that will give you joy all through your life?

For many people, the time and financial cost of children means delaying or sacrificing all those.

I can't answer that for anyone but myself, but I will say the journey of raising kids changed me significantly, such that the "happiness" I experienced previous to having a family seems so shallow in comparison.

Happiness is not the only important thing. Fulfillment, meaning, and purpose are important, too.

Yes, the journey of parenthood is exactly what the person is referring to, not just the end result. Hard work is never really super enjoyable, but the work is part of the journey and you appreciate the end result.

10 childless years with a little more money and free time vs 50 years with children and then grandchildren.

For most, the investment of having children during the front end of life is no brainer with huge returns.

But those 10 years are where I have the body to do the things I want to do.

There is no guarantee that my body will be healthy and capable of things like extreme sports and adventures later.

It’s a decision all of us have to make individually.

My only suggestion is try to consider what you may want at 50, 60, 70 and how you have a short window in your 20s and 30s to have children.

Yeah, I don't really want my 50s, 60s, 70s to be all that different from now in my 30s.

For me that means being deeply immersed in my hobbies, and traveling the world and being active etc. All that I expect to change are toning down the active activities to things that an older body can still manage, like skiing, scuba diving, hiking etc.

I can't see ever wanting kids or even coming close to that as I haven't even ever had a desire for a partner yet.

> Yeah, I don't really want my 50s, 60s, 70s to be all that different from now in my 30s.

I would argue that you probably have no idea what your future self will want. This is why advice from elders, parables and traditions are valuable. Ignore what they suggest at your own risk.

Maybe I'm weird, but so far I am 36 and have always seemed to know exactly what I want from life at every step so far and have done that and it's been excellent. And it's been quite far from any advice I've gotten from others more senior to me.

There just isn't a single thing about a significant other or kids that I have ever even thought about wanting.

It just seems very weird to me to do a complete 180 and pursue all these things that I have 0 interest in pursuing. I wouldn't even know how to begin. Forcing myself to get a significant other etc just seems like a bad idea and at the very least a big disservice to whoever I end up pursuing.

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