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Comment by willcipriano | Hacker News Reader

Just give your kids regular water, don't subject them to your mental illness.

This was stocked on Whole Foods shelves. I imagine many people who bought likely thought this was some kind of "regular" water.

- "A study published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in November 2021 laid out 25 cases of acute liver failure linked to the water—22 in Nevada and three in California, all of which occurred at the end of 2020. Specifically, the cases were linked to Real Water's 5-gallon Re2al Water product, sold in multiple southwestern states in places like Whole Foods."

Whole Foods customers are probably buying that water because its "more healthy" than water from Walmart if we are honest.

That's what they believe. Same for a lot of things sold there. That's what happens in everything that has no controls. Food items, dietary supplements all of those have close to 0 controls, nobody checks what's in them. And it is the same (or worse) in all the kratom and synthetic thc products found everywhere in grocery stores and gas stations around the country. The agencies supposed to check for that are not doing anything for various reasons (they get dismantled, rendered inefficient through bureaucracy or plainy incompetent). This should tell you how much politics (both sides) really value the human lifes they make you believe they defend.

Sorry, I'm familiar with the actions taken by one side to defund and obstruct regulatory bodies, what is the other side doing that warrants a "both sides?" Being incompetent due to obstruction and a lack of funds?

Pretending to care about things like that but instead spending all your money on wars.

Near as I can tell they were selling this stuff for $2 a liter, which probably should have tipped people off but some people just have no sense for these things ("It's one banana Michael, how much could it cost? $10?")

I would be doubly skeptical of anything like this coming from Whole Foods, the grocery store that has an entire aisle dedicated to fraudulent quackery "medicine" aka homeopathic nonsense. It's not illegal, but it should be, and they shouldn't be selling it even though it's legal, but they proudly do. Fuck whole foods.

I've seen homeopathic nonsense in chain drug stores. Is it a symptom of how unaffordable US healthcare is, or are people in other countries also profiting from selling quackery?

My local pharmacy (not any kind of chain) sells homeopathic crap.

It's a nice pharmacy; it's not actually that local, I have to take a bus to get there. It's tiny - basically a corner shop.

UK pharmacies get a fee from the NHS for each prescription they dispense. But I imagine that's not enough to keep them running; they need the profits they make from manuka honey shampoo, argan-oil skin products, dubious supplements and so on.

> Is it a symptom of how unaffordable US healthcare is

In my circles, it's actually the well-off people who buy into the quack fads.

I'm sure the same snake oil dynamic exists everywhere, but the popularity sure seems like a feature of rampant individualism as enabled by wealth. Don't follow professional "medical advice" - that's boring, we all know it's bound to fail, and that's if you can even get an appointment with an engaged professional. Instead "do your own research" and find that one simple trick that "they" have been keeping from you. The lure of someone believing that they've discovered their own smarter approach is a hell of a drug.

Every country has some degree of homeopathic cures. What makes the US particularly stand out is that people integrate homeopathic bullshit as a replacement for proper medical care and treatment. It's been a long standing problem heightened over the past few years as certain groups grow in cultish fervor.

It exists everywhere in some form. Germany is famous for have homeopathic MDs. Much of Asia is filled with some style of Traditional Chinese Medicine. In the US it exists in mostly the wealthier circles where people can afford to believe in snake oil.

I believe there are definitely certain components/compounds that exist in nature that have been used successfully but I think that dwarfs the vast amount of fake supplements and drugs that exist.

I think the difference is we have entire shelves in many stores stocked with products with zero proven efficacy related to what is claimed on the packaging.

I believe that too.

There are none in homeopathic “remedies” though, as their process of manufacture removes any and all potential active ingredients.

China.

Whole Foods is simply responding to market forces. Blame the market, not the Whole Foods.

That's only a valid approach if the responder is not also an influencer.

Marketplaces are under no obligation to stock things just because someone is dumb enough to buy it and someone else unscrupulous enough to make it.

Hate to see Big Homeopathy bully Amazon/Whole Foods. They're not under any obligation not too either. If people want to buy quack products either let them or just ban them.

> Blame the market, not the Whole Foods

I blame the regulations (more specifically, the lack thereof)

Whole foods chooses not to stock meat they believe is unethically produced. They have a whole list of ingredients they reject: https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/quality-standards/food-ingr...

They could take the same stand against homeopathy. It's really strange that they don't.

I think homeopathy is bullshit. I also think Whole Foods is acting completely rationally here. The people who take quack products are probably in the intersection of people who value ethically produced meat.

$2 a liter is not out of line for 'normal' fancy water - that's around the cost of fiji or evian.

Your point stands... that's a ridiculous $$$ for water, but we've been conditioned for a long time that that price point is 'reasonable'.

I'm very surprised water products like this weren't required to undergo rigorous testing for toxic chemicals.

I am surprised there is zero audit trail for a good purchased at Whole Foods to be honest.

City water in Flint was poisonous, buying drinking water from a respectable retailer should not be risky.

If you sent a a sample to a water testing company, would they have detected the hydrazine, it’s not like it’s a common contaminant and I’m sure it’s is very small quantities which while still harmful are why it wasn’t obvious??

A common drinking water test (which will run $100 or so) will not run tests for hydrazine but there is a more exhaustive test ($600 or so) which will.

We use etrlabs.com for these tests.

Edit: hrmmm… troubling to see Hanna meters called out as defective or malfunctioning - presumably their ph meters - as we use those for everything…

Are you certain you've understood their product offering? That vendor doesn't mention hydrazine in the long list of things they say they check for, on their website.

Indeed, that one doesn’t appear to. There are plenty of standalone kits that do as it’s used to prevent boiler corrosion, however. Here’s an example:

https://www.chemetrics.com/product-category/test-kits/hydraz...

I don’t know if there are any “all in one” tests that include it but I’m not involved in the field in any way aside from using a reverse osmosis filter on my tap.

The article states these other companies played a role in faulty pH measurement, leading to less dilution with actual real water.

"That vendor doesn't mention hydrazine ..."

You are correct.

I'm surprised it isn't in the "ultimate water test" and I assumed that it was.

If only. If you've been on HN long enough, you'll see people peddling miracle cures and homeopathic bullshit.

America has long had a fraught history with falling prey to snake oil salesman, which forms the basis for a lot of our regulatory system around food. But even then it's not strict enough in some sense, considering products tainted with hydrazine were able to make it to shelves.

> don't subject them to your mental illness.

This isn't possible.

good luck https://www.nrdc.org/resources/lead-pipes-are-widespread-and...

The regular water at our home gives them the shits.

Exactly. Parents of kids who got ill or died should be criminally charged. For some reason, the U.S. doesn't do this under some strange "Haven't they suffered enough?" legal theory.

If, say, a teacher gave the kids the water, there would have been charges.

What’s the theory for parental liability here? If you buy something at Whole Foods you should be able to assume it won’t kill you.

Why? Is Whole Foods more blessed than other retail outlets?

I don't know about you, but I usually don't have time to do rigorous testing on every food item I buy from the grocery store. Life is busy these days. /s

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It'd be nice to live in a society where common, basic food and drink products designed to be consumed by humans and sold in your local grocery store have some sort of safety guarantee.

E.g. Someone checked for toxic chemicals

If you buy drinking water at any retail outlet you should be able to assume it won't kill you. Obviously.

Exactly. My point is: some people seem to elevate Whole Foods to some pedestal, as if the products they sell are somehow healthier than those of other retailers. In fact they sell products made by third-party manufacturers, just like any supermarket.

I've never been into a Whole Foods; I imagine they have some stuff that I couldn't get in other shops, and I imagine that everything is marked-up, whether it's exclusive or not, and whether it's fresh or canned. Is that about right?

Nah I hate Whole Foods. That was just the retail outlet that was mentioned as carrying this. Dunno if it’s even true honestly.

I don't think anyone actually thought that Whole Foods was special. It's just the specific store that happened to sell this poison stuff. It could have been Kroger or Food Lion or whatever and OP would still have legitimately said "If you buy something at X you should be able to assume it won’t kill you."

In general, it’s a reasonable assumption, in a developed country, that if you buy water in a shop it should be safe. The obvious liable parties here would be the manufacturer, maybe the retailer, maybe the relevant regulator, maybe the government (for not giving the regulators sufficient powers to deal with this sort of thing upfront). Dunno how you get to the _purchaser_ being liable.

I doubt a teacher would have charges because I assume there must be mens rea for this to be a crime.

This is not a "haven't they suffered enough" issue. They are idiots paying too much at an actual grocery for what they thought is magic water without rocket fuel in it. They're not intentionally giving bleach to their child or anything like that. The culpability is with the manufacturer.

I doubt they would be charged criminally in any western nation. Not sure what you are thinking.

maybe if it was one of the listed ingredients, or they bought it from their cousin who makes it in a bathtub in his basement

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