What does friendship look like in America? | Hacker News Reader

What does friendship look like in America?

pewresearch.org

56 pointsjyunwai80 comments

USA 30+ adult here, total loner status: friends/spouse/acquaintances, I don't have anybody who spends any physical time near me. Obviously I get messages from old friends far away, but they might as well be letters in the mail.

I remember having dozens of friends in school, since I was involved in half a dozen sponsored activities.

Even in college, those extra curricular activities (and classes forced group work, science labs) is where I met most of my friends. But I did notice the count going down, I figured I was too busy with my work.

Nowadays I'm 100% WFH, and have zero friends in any sort of physical proximity to me. Yes I'm single too, of course. I go out to eat every day just to have a chance of socializing, and to people-watch. I visit the sketchiest Walmart in my city in case something interesting happens, and to people-watch.

Otherwise, I might as well not exist. If I died, my immediate family (parents, siblings) would be the only people to notice (after the county calls found my body, anyway), and maybe a friend or two from high school would drop in for the funeral.

What happened? I'm an extroverted Leo, so unlike most lurkers here, I actually consider this a real problem in my life.

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I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I've realized a solution: drastically changing my living situation, and going out to bars more, is likely to be a reasonable plan to "make a lot of new friends" as an adult.

Think about it: what do most, non-autistic people, who don't-use-computers, do on the weekend? They go to bars! They probably get laid, too!! The only apps on their phone are probably facebook, tinder and a sports betting app!!!

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While we're all complaining about this, there are tons of people who use their smartphones to socialize every day. *What are they doing that we don't?*

That’s tricky. When I look at most of my recent friends, they’re almost always work friends or friends of a friend/spouse etc.

Starting from scratch must be hard. I don’t know if bars are the only solution. Gym friends, maybe trying to go on some dates etc. could work.

If you are 100% work from home why do you choose to work in a place where you have no friends?

yes, GYM friends, now you're talking.

bars, gyms, what else are super easy and common?

libraries are out because you're supposed to be quiet.

Book stores. I’ve met people there. Pretty easy to ask what someone is reading or which author they love.

Concerts could be another one.

Btw these are all places where I’ve met girls, but it’s probably just as easy to make friends there.

The solution is to volunteer.

yes, thanks for reminding me to look into this, I've never done this yet.

Yes. Get out in your community. Volunteer at a soup kitchen. If you're a nice, considerate person, you'll make friends in no time.

Organized religion, though it is on the decline, is also a very important vector for socializing. So are local sports leagues. The key is frequent exposure to the same people breeding familiarity. I'm in your boat, a little older, and married with kids. Having kids helps, because you take them to the same activities on a regular schedule which puts me in regular contact with other similar adults. They're acquaintances, not really "friends", but it's better than nothing.

I've considered this too, but, I work with too many non-religious freaks, that they're basically as guilty as the religious freaks, so I can't live two sides of the same coin.

"Think about it: what do most, non-autistic people, who don't-use-computers do on the weekend? They go to bars! They probably get laid, too!!"

Bars and alcohol are not the only way. If you enjoy them, sure go for it. Otherwise join a sports club, go working out, start climbing, visit a gym, go dancing, join a music band, a choir, a hacker club. Anything where people are and where you enjoy the atmosphere.

Or move somehwere, where activity hubs are closer, so the friction is less to actually go there.

right, I live too far from too many activity hubs. rural areas are great, to a certain extent.

That's a salient detail! Cities have their downsides but people put up with them for proximity to other people.

I wish you the best luck in fixing this.

I'm surrounded by many people, many of them I met in my choir. People around me had quite some luck joining swing lessons too.

Maybe you could try something like this? Joining some dance, singing, drama, sport club, or some repair or activist community? In short, joining some group of people who share a common activity or common ideas / ideals? It also gives some easy starting point for discussions beside the weather. What works really well in my choir is that besides people being here also to meet new people, after rehearsal many of us stay/gather at a place where you can drink or eat (but are not forced too, it's fine just hanging out without taking anything). Could also be related to computing, though while I love the activity, I'm happy to spend some time with people outside it discussing other stuff.

I have a lot of friends and I'm now quite self-confident, but I would be terrified to have to socialize with people in bars. Not to mention the noise. Unless most people are also specifically there to meet other people.

(edit: but yeah, that works in a city, if you are in a remote area it can be tough. But still.)

(not in the US)

Going out to bars isn't your only shot, and may not even be a good venue. Meet ups for hobbies though are almost universally fantastic places to meet folks.

Before I moved to my current location, I created a meetup account for myself, here, and joined many meetup groups around varying personal and professional interests, along with some general social ones, some singles ones, and some age-range-based ones. I browsed the local subreddit, and a local, social events subreddit, and joined discord groups associated with both the meetups and the subreddits.

When I actually moved, I forced myself to go to several each week, to bootstrap a physical social network from nothing. Some conclusions from this:

- It's a lot of work at first, if you're not extroverted. I wasn't. You gotta force yourself to go out.

- If you go to a particular meetup enough, you'll see some of the same people there, and can make friends, and can be a "regular", welcoming new folks into the friends if it's their first time.

- If you go to multiple different meetups, you might find some other overlapping people, and can make friends.

- If you go to meetups enough, you develop an "elevator pitch" for you as a person/friend/social creature, essentially you learn to introduce yourself without effort or anxiety.

- Meetups are usually organized by normal folks, and you can help out with one or start your own, and this helps me feel a sense of local grounding and friendship.

- Doing this is a great way to learn a new city, both the places and the streets.

- "Are you with the meetup group?" when at a public venue is a good icebreaker and way to introduce yourself to people who are and also to people who aren't :) *- edited to clarify that this is an icebreaking, not a gatekeeping question

I don’t know what your particular interests are, but my suggestion would be to try to find some in-person group activities that align with something you are interested in. Take an art class at a community college, join a group for hikes/bike rides/sports, etc. I think this can be a low pressure way to meet a lot of people who you might at least have one or two things in common with. Casual acquaintances like this may or may not become the starting point for more “real” friendships but it’s a start.

Fairly relatable other than the fact that I wouldn’t consider myself an extrovert. I’m mostly WFH. Late 20s, single, don’t really have strong connections locally. Moved to SF a few years (COVID times…) which is a terrible time to move to a new place where you don’t know anybody. Have struggled to be outgoing since and have found it very hard to make connections. Granted I should be trying harder.

What’s worse is that the few friend connections I have from earlier in life back home are all getting busier with their own lives/partners so it’s not like I get to see them often anyway. That’s been a hard hitting realization.

Going to the office for a short while before COVID hit was really beneficial in retrospect since you meet a lot of people that way. Especially when you’re younger.

As you said it seems like most people hang out at bars and such but I have no idea how to cold approach random people and talk them up. At this point I’m probably going to try apps like Meetup, Bumble BFF, FB Groups to make some friends.

If anyone’s got suggestions I’m down to hear them.

Look up local D&D groups (there's a reason it's only gotten more popular, also fun as hell with adequately decent people), or some kind of other hobby/activity group that provides the necessary pretext for complete strangers to meet without it being "weird". You can look up lists of hobbies, and just see if there's some group around.

Dance lessons, communal gardening, gym/"rock" climbing (specifically, joining an “accountability group”), and even some intermittent volunteer activities (thought you want to be cautious of that one, as you are there for meeting people, not for something to do or be feel guilted into long term) are also some other things that are a possibility.

"While we're all complaining about this, there are tons of people who use their smartphones to socialize every day. What are they doing that we don't?"

They are doing what interests them, plain and simple. It's kind of a red flag to live without friends and say you are an extrovert. Extroverts usually try to meet other people, and have no problems approaching them. Have you tried being what you say you are?

Introverts, on the other hand, prefer activities that involve a lot less human interaction. Any introvert that goes out of his/her way to meet people at bars, parties or what-have-you is not really an introvert.

Join a non-affiliated cross fit gym.

You will see the same crowd every week. After a while, maybe grab a coffee. Fellow regulars will become acquaintances and then friends. You will become more (conventionally) physically attractive, which will help with dating. Just try it, it will change your life.

I don't know your solution, but I can speak for what worked for me when I found myself in a very similar predicament. This was in conjunction with seeing a therapist about some of the reasons I wasn't spending my time socially when it was clearly what I needed (beyond the scope of what I'm willing to write here). I consider myself pretty extroverted and I am far, far happier than I was in 2020 when the problem was at its worst (the lockdowns were only a catalyst).

I just started joining social activities and seeing what stuck.

- I did Muay Thai classes but while I enjoy the sport, I didn't make any friends at the gym so I moved on (I work out at a more casual boxing gym now and enjoy it)

- I play a lot of social sports leagues. At this point its mostly with people I already know but I joined as free agents for a solid year, usually in 2 at any given time. These were mostly weeknights (WFH makes this a lot easier). There's a group of us who regularly do things ranging from bowling to dinner parties, I'd say I have about 5 moderately close friends from this circle.

- Went to random singles meetup groups. I actually met 2 of my closest male friends at a singles group that only 1 girl showed up to (I'm a guy btw). We started talking, kept in touch and became extremely close. I regularly take vacations with these two. I've met several friends through them too.

- Took improv classes. I met a lot of interesting people here since I never really had an artistic outlet before (having an artistic outlet turned out to be a great thing too).

- Joined a political group and met a few people there, one of whom is among my closest friends. He got me into Muay Thai and we usually see a movie every week or so.

- I avoided tech and gaming groups since they're so heavily male and well within my comfort zone.

This is largely a numbers game. I don't keep in touch with or even remember the vast majority of people I've met in these groups. But everyone I currently spend time with I met via the above.

    Think about it: what do most, non-autistic people, who don't-use-computers, do on the weekend? They go to bars! They probably get laid, too!!

I think this is putting the cart before the horse. Groups of friends go to bars to socialize. Not everyone goes out and gets laid from there, plenty of people just want to hang out with their friends.

We’re most of those groups (political, singles meetup) hosted on the Meetup app? Curious because I also need to try more of that.

The political and singles groups were Meetup based, the rest were not.

Interesting that it completely skirts the issue of whether or not these friendships are remote or in-person. That can make a huge difference: texting with someone versus dropping by their place for a few hours on a Saturday afternoon aren't the same and not saying one is better than the other, and in many cases the former is impossible, but it does have an impact.

Did I miss it or does it not define what a "close friend" is? I speak with two friends almost every day, but I'm unsure I would consider them "close friends" because I rarely see them in person and they're not really invested in my life in any major way (nor I theirs).

For me, close friends would be defined as those you physically visit frequently during the week; where you can share every secret and detail of your life and they'll have your back or come to your aid whenever you need it. If you end up in an accident, they'll come visit you at the hospital.

All that being said, I think the spectrum of what "close friend" means will vary widely for most people.

To generalise a bit, extroverts consider practically anyone they talk to frequently a close friend. Introverts require a much deeper connection. I doubt there are many introverts with 5+ close friends whereas many extroverts have them.

I think leaving it to people to pick their own definition is useful in this case because different age groups probably also have a different idea of what a friend and close friend is.

In my mid-20s, my idea of a friend doesn't really depend too much on physical proximity. To me a friend is someone I find enjoyable/interesting enough to want to keep conversing with them. In my teens I'd have considered anyone of a similar age who I regularly interact with a friend.

A close friend is someone I can trust with basically any thought/info and who similarly can trust me. All my close friends don't live anywhere near me and I have never even met 2 of them in person. But it's weird to not count them as close when we've been chatting and sharing our thoughts and experiences in near real-time for years now.

I've become more restrictive with who I call a friend and especially who I call a close friend because as a child there isn't really much autonomy in choosing, you're more or less stuck with classmates and neighbors and any disagreements are meaningless and forgotten in a week. As an adult, I have much more freedom in who I engage with and I have to be picky because my time is limited and disagreements can cause much more damage.

Given our busy lives, who has time to visit people in person that frequently? One of my closest friends lives 45 minutes drive away from me. We text and call every couple of days, facetime every so often, but we see each other in person maybe once a month. With all the technology available to us, I don't think you have to see people in person for them to have an important place in your life these days.

I wish we lived < 15-minute walk to each other so we could visit in person all the time, but that's not possible, so we make do with what's available.

Interesting article - if only 15% of American men talk about their mental health with their "close friends" them and I have a different definition of what a friend is!

Yeah, well, you need to cut through layer upon layer of social conditioning telling you people rely on you to be strong. Not vulnerable, but more like a rock. If you’re going to be sad or some such, we prefer you to show anger instead. Because that shows strength. Overall society is doing its best to keep passing that along to the next generation as a gift that keeps on giving.

Counterpoint. I just met someone who started telling me about their bipolarity within the first five minutes of meeting. It was pretty obviously functioning as a trophy for them. This is a pretty stereotypical kind of modern bore. See also https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/trauma-is-indeed-like-a....

I disagree that society is "doing its best to keep passing that along". The statistics also show that those under 50 are twice as open to mental health talk with close friends. While the idea of men being expected to be a "rock" isn't dead, I think it has changed somewhat. At least for my family/friends, while there is still a big expectation of being emotionally "strong", that doesn't come with the expectation of coming off as invulnerable.

What is a friend (and how does that differ from a close friend)?

Frankly, I don’t even talk about mental health with my wife, and I would say she is my best friend. I imagine this is cultural, but I’m not sure what that means. It’s not like anyone ever said to me, hey, never talk to your friend in private about mental health. And that isn’t something I’d expect people to talk about in public with each other where I could learn from observation. In other words, it doesn’t feel like something that is learned from explicit teaching or from observation. So, where is it learned from?

I think learning from omission is a real thing. If you never observed anyone doing it, then why would you? When I was growing up, no one ever talked about mental health or therapy, so I didn't even realize it was an option until college when I met others raised in a different culture.

But, where would you observe it? It isn't the kind of thing people talk about in public, usually. I know my wife and her friends discuss mental health issues, but they have never done so in front of me. Those discussions only happen in private.

The only thing I can figure is that as teenagers girls discuss mental health issues and they learned it from slightly older teenage girls who themselves learned it from their own slightly older teenage girls when they were younger.

Yeah, I grew up where it was not common to talk about either. I think I mostly picked it up from significant others, and from joining a community for awhile where it was much more common to talk about those sorts of things. I'm glad that I did!

It does climb to 37% for those under 30 and 29% between 30 and 50. Still low, but showing a big shift there.

The poll only counts people who talk about it "often or extremely often".

It actually seems crazy to me that the number is so high for younger age groups:

> And young adults are more likely to say they often talk about their mental health with close friends: 37% say this, compared with 29% of those 30 to 49 and 14% of those 50 and older.

That's a lot of mental health talk. I suspect you won't see this amount of mental health talk in places with good average mental health.

I think younger people have a much broader definition of "mental health". Somebody 50+ might say "mental health, like a mental hospital? no thanks", somebody in Gen Z might say "fr fr i always talk about how stressful school is with my homies".

The older crowd is much less likely to advertise to one another that they have a shrink, whilst Gen Z is gonna jump on their phone after a session and say "yoooo guess what my therapist told me today" to their group text chat, so I'd say GenZ talks a ton more about mental health than older cohorts, not simply that they have a broader definition.

It’s never looked like friendships I’ve seen in India but that is expected. This is a much more individualistic society.

> This is a much more individualistic society.

I'm not sure what it's like in other cultures but the past 5 years in a "coming to age" process, I never realized how few people care about others.

I'm sure everybody has conflicting experiences but I have encountered multiple circles of acquaintances who never close that bridge/gap to become a "friend", going as far as not knowing your first name or what you do/anything about you after seeing you around and saying hello/goodbye for years.

When I was younger, I never thought being an adult would be like this socializing wise.

I'm not sure what your expectations growing up were but I remember always hearing "making friends as adults is hard". This might be somewhat alleviated by having kids as a forcing function (becoming friends with your kid's friend's parents because of the amount of time they spend together) but it's pretty much been proven true. Making friends is a huge time investment, especially as an adult when you have more responsibilities that take up that time.

> I'm not sure what your expectations growing up were but I remember always hearing "making friends as adults is hard".

What's weird to me is... does it have to be?

For example, I've been in plenty of situations where all it would take is somebody to turn to me and say "so... tell me about yourself. blah blah blah, wow, me too! here's my number, we should hang out sometime".

I can't even get people to do that lol

People just seem preoccupied with themselves/don't seem to care. But then I turn it into something against myself. Why do these people have other friends/care about others but don't want to extend their circle to include me? Is it something about me? Then you start thinking "wow... this person is rude, we've been around each other for 3+ years and they've never once asked me my name/anything about me" lol

I feel like you tried to explain this to a high schooler as "something that may happen later in your adult life" they would say... "there's no way/I don't believe you"

I remember telling my oldest kid that it was highly unlikely she would still be friends with her best friend in high school after high school. She didn’t believe me. About five years later she asked me if I remembered that conversation and said that I was right.

I told my kids this in elementary school and they were surprised.

Conversely my wife is still friends with all her high school friends.

> For example, I've been in plenty of situations where all it would take is somebody to turn to me and say...

Do you turn to them and say that?

In my experience, coming up with the opening line is the hardest part. Once you've determined some common ground to start off on, it's easy to keep going. Meeting at some sort of shared interest environment alleviates this.

Without that, it's basically the same as going to an LLM and saying "Hello, how are you?"

To be honest, I have a few excuses to this.

1. Once you've tried a few times and failed at almost 100% to have anything fruitful come from it, it's easy to blame yourself/want to stop trying

2. If you are going to be near me for 3 years+ on and off at a soccer game + post game drinks or whatever and not even put the effort in to know my name, I can't help but feel I would come off as the young kids say as "thirsty" and "unable to read the room" asking somebody uninterested to be a friend "hey... please be my friend!"

100% agreed. I have different expectations from an Indian friend vs an American/Canadian friend. That said I make friends very easily and there's certainly a lot of culture sharing going on, which I really enjoy. For instance some of my westerns friends are now used to just showing up at my doorstep before even sending me a text message, now that's what I was used to growing up. I know this is a very silly thing but to me it matters a lot, because I hate the "let's plan charade". Also, I really like that in the western culture there's no unnecessary pressure to do things in group. For instance, I have very specific eating habits and I don't usually eat after 5pm. When I'm invited at a western friend for dinner and I tell them upfront that I won't be eating anything they don't mind, they get it. On the other hand, the Indian friends keep forcing me to try things, it takes them a couple of tries before they realize I won't listen and then they stop doing it. It is really annoying but I always have to face that with any new Indian friend.

Anecdata: I have been having a really difficult time relating and empathizing with new acquaintances (and even existing friends that I now see more often) in a meaningful way. This became noticeable since the pandemic. I basically operate on a principle of being so disappointed with my interactions with people that I now invest my time and emotions in other things, which I know is not sustainable or healthy. But the experience of trying to get to know people lately has been repulsive.

Not sure what else to do! (and before anyone mentions therapy, I’m way ahead of you.)

The key thing about friendships is being able to take the other person for granted and being completely comfortable/not giving a shit about what the other person thinks. Friends are extremely loyal to each other and you have to be able to trust that the other person will act in your best interest.

Modern psychology will tell you all these things are wrong and it shows in the general population. Disregard modern advice on this issue which all revolve around increasing your guard and being mindful around people. That does not work.

Interesting point. Not easy for some people but valuable insight nevertheless.

Agreed, but remember not to confide in someone who is a blab. Close friends who maintain their scruples are the truly valuable ones.

I'm not sure if that tracks in the field. I am currently experiencing such a case where a friend I previously trusted 100% and considered loyal has turned into a complete psychopath on a self-destructive warpath in which I am in the square center. And I can list plenty of other such cases in my life.

That said, I have some friendships which I do still put 100% in, and receive in kind, and I'm glad I have them. But I went through countless wasted relationships and hardships inflicted by others in order to know that these friends are the real ones. And I want to say that the process was worth it; But this idea that friends are extremely loyal to each other seems entirely unfounded in modern society.

I recommend Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone which breaks down the problems modern America and Western society in general are facing regarding civil action, friendship and loyalty.

“Putting in a 100%” is the exact opposite of what I’m recommending. You have to put in 0%, a friendship has to be effortless, something you don’t spend brain cycles on.

A key part of this is being reasonable and level headed and making friends with the same mindset.

But that stands in direct opposition with the claim

> Friends are extremely loyal to each other and you have to be able to trust that the other person will act in your best interest.

because you're trusting your friends will act with above 0% effort.

I actually expect a lot of my friends, and they expect a lot of me. I'm not talking financially, or anything like that. I mean I expect them to be invested in the friendship itself. I don't care to associate with people who don't see friendships as investments. Things to be nurtured, protected, grown and depended upon.

Many people are very OK with having such friendships but I am enough of an introvert that friendship has to give me some amount of value that is more than what I create for myself when left to my own devices. And that requires a level of commitment from myself well above 0%.

It’s not contradictory. It takes zero effort to keep someone’s secrets. It takes almost no effort to chat with and hang out with someone that I’m comfortable with, atleast anecdotally. It takes zero effort to back someone wholeheartedly in a situation.

On a tangent another thing between my friends and I is a constant stream of barbless insults. It keeps things light, fun and airy.

I have this problem and in my case it started before I moved to United States. I went to same school when I was a kid until age of 12. Then I went to a private high school in a different town where studied for 5 years and it felt like I made a lot of friends there. After that I went to college in a different country and studied there for 6 years where I also made a ton of friends. Then in my mid twenties I moved to United States and initially it felt like I had made a lot of friends during my first few years in the States but pretty much nobody from my college or high school years were in touch with me by then. After I got married, it felt like I lost most of my friends that I had made. Being married was very lonely and I got divorced and moved to another state. I worked at different places and had normal relationships with people but after I switch jobs I noticed that nobody stays in touch. I'm getting closer to my 40s and I am thinking a lot about this problem that apparently I have but I can't point out what am I doing wrong. I am not rude to anyone and don't have bad habits or other negative things that are obvious to me but I do wonder what is the cause of this.

My hunch is that all your moving doesn't help. I'm a similar age and it feels impossible to make new friends. Virtually all my current inner circle are friends from ~20 years from High School and College.

It's much easier to lose friends then gain them. So as people marry, have kids, move, keeping the close allyship becomes more difficult.

The kinds of activities most US 30+ adults are open to are relatively small and easily prone to be disrupted. For example, I might invite someone to watch a basketball game, but it will take a fairly long time for that kind of contact to blossom into a strong friendship. Moving just resets everything.

Also consider I would never call up a coworker I might have known for years and invite to something more personal, like a ski vacation. If I was in college, I wouldn't think twice about doing that with someone I didn't even know that well.

Having lived here most of my life as an extrovert I can safely say, don’t count on any American friends. All of the closest friends I’ve made have been European, Asian , Hispanic or on the spectrum. Every friend is just a networking opportunity here. Even worse, Americans are uncultured and boring.

These days it looks a lot like just sending each other memes back and forth on social media.

Having quit social media for partially that reason, now people either text me memes, or I don’t hear from them as much, or at all.

(I memetically refer to social media and memes as “the mind killers” with some friends)

Dune would've looked a lot different if social media was the mind killer instead.

What are "friends?"

I wish you weren’t downvoted. I had the same question while reading the article. Especially, what is the difference between an acquaintance, a friend, and a close friend?

"Friends" by Robin Dunbar explains that pretty well. Highly recommended.

For me friends are people to get drunk with them on weekends. ...so i assume it is very subjective

People with whom you willingly share your time and interests, and you aren't romantically involved with.

They're sort of like a walking buffet that you can talk to when you're bored.

They're going to be crucial to our survival in the coming apocalypse but in the modern world they don't serve much purpose.

Americans don't know how to make "friends."

I'm an immigrant from a slavic country. I grew up in the north east of the U.S. -- the more continental/European part of this country. My experience has been that Americans outside of this small cultural nook are: 1. dishonest and insincere; 2. socially performative and inauthentic; 3. conversationally shallow and mentally dull; 4. self-centered and unconscientious; 5. culturally stunted, making for a characteristic mixture that precludes them from having any deep friendships.

I'm sure many slavs will understand the culture shock of being asked an insincere "how are you?" Americans don't care how you are. It's a social performance to signal "I'm normal. Are you normal?" Once that has been broached, the next step is to engage in a shallow, safe, and completely meaningless conversation to assert to one another that yes, each person is still mentally sound (in the American definition of the word; i.e., do you fit in). As opposed to Europeans (sans Nordics), Americans are deathly self-conscious of their image, what people think of them, and whether or not what they say can and will be used against them in a court of public opinion. This ends up manifesting in shallow conversations and a lack of authenticity. Very few Americans will be able to say, honestly and openly, to another what they really think and feel. And what they do say is always chained down by decades of having to self-censor, so it comes out inelegant, clumsy, and as though they never really put much thought into what they think. It is impossible to make friends if you're unwilling to let go, and speak from the soul. Friendship requires vulnerability. It requires that you be able to present yourself as who you are, and be ready for someone to not like you. Europeans can handle disagreement and coexist with one another, despite differing opinions. In spite of America's "melting pot" status, they still cannot coexist with different ideas and view points -- they always take it as a challenge to make their ideas known, rather than to try to understand the other's -- or as a podium to make known how insular and unworldly they are.

Having been in this country for 40 years, I have not made a single American "friend." I have countless American acquaintances in my phone book, but none are what I would call a friend. The only interesting conversations I've had with Americans have been from those on the autistic spectrum, the rest have been utterly uninspiring. Contrast this to my rich social life with the those from all sorts of cultures: latins, europeans, slavics, asians, oceanics, britons, I have numerous people I call friend in these groups. They understand the give-and-take, push-and-pull, speak-and-listen dynamic of socialization. Americans only know "me, me, me." How can you be friends with someone who only ever talks about pedestrian topics? Who never is truly genuine with the world, nor himself? Who is not open to live and suffer? You can't.

American's issues stem from their lack of culture. They are devoid of any deeper concepts or values. Partly the incessant protestant values. Partly that anyone with a soul will have to deaden themselves to get along. Partly the inability to stop what they're doing and simply exist.

Provocative yes. But these are my observations, and they haven't been twisted and turned to comply with whatever flavor of cultural fad pervades the current zeitgeist -- or butchered to "get along."

I’m an immigrant from a Slavic country and my only friends are native Americans. For some reason I just feel like I get along with the culture and mindset better. However I’m not going to generalize this to millions of people since I think it’s more of a personal preference.

I've traveled throughout this entire country, and met all sorts of people. At a certain point there are patterns that connect them all; even something as basic as "the majority of them speak English."

Not all Americans are like this, but there is an American way of being that's starkly visible to me, and unignorable once you've seen it 100s of times.

It is very hard to communicate this to someone who hasn't interacted with a diverse group of people or spent a significant amount of time outside North America.

I also immigrated to America when I was young, having spent the first decade of my life in a cultural context where communication styles are more direct and the notion of "friendship" is different. Now many decades later, I can say that how people interact with each other here is not something that I accept or understand. Developing genuine connections here is extremely difficult and it doesn't have to be that way.

In short, "friendship" as a concept just doesn't exist in America. I've completely given up on trying to make connections with others whose only frame of reference is the image conscious culture here. I can't say I have a lot of close friends but the people in my life who I get along with and appreciate are without exceptions people who recently immigrated here from continental europe, africa, latin america, asia etc.

I'm not sure that it makes sense to talk about a single "culture and mindset" being shared by all Native groups or the like, since they're going to have a whole lot of variation in cultural heritage, status etc. It would be interesting to know what Native groups, tribes, bands etc. you've been involved with.

> Having been in this country for 40 years, I have not made a single American "friend."

> <screed about how Americans suck>

I'm no expert on friend making, but if I had to guess, the two are possibly related.

Speaking as an American who grew up in the South, moved to San Francisco for a few years, left SF to travel with my wife and work remotely in an RV, and changed from Christian to athiest/agnostic later in life: I think a core problem is that we are getting much more polarized in our beliefs and ideology than we even realize. I don’t even mean that in the sense that our beliefs are diverging, but that there is an increasingly strong mentality of “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.” I’ve spent time in strongly liberal and strongly conservative areas, and everyone is very careful to “toe the line.” Most places I’ve been fall increasingly in the category of strongly liberal or strongly conservative. The dividing line is often rural or urban. As someone who is no longer religious, with a spattering of conservative and liberal views, who has friends and family I love on all spectrums of belief, it’s quite stifling to feel as though I have to “read the room” before opening my mouth and being honest. People are ready to either get extremely defensive or go on the attack. So, as you said, the least common denominator of discussion is the most common: shallow conversation about what you did that day, the weather, food, travel plans… nothing deep or emotional.

If you yourself belong strongly in the same ideological camp, and you find others who are, it can suddenly feel a lot more inclusive. You can feel what passes for a deep connection, as long as you don’t have opinions that diverge. Interestingly, after losing my faith but having people I care for across multiple belief systems, I started seeing other people from a less judgmental eye and more from the idea that we should expect people to be unique based on their own experiences. Everything doesn’t have to be a massive good-vs-evil fight for who is right. We’re just humans who are much more influenced by things outside our control than we realize. Having deep, non-combative conversations about different perspectives developed by different experiences is something we are all missing out on in our current social environment.

"Everybody sucks and is stupid! Why do I not have any friend?"

This comment said exactly what I wanted to say

Friendship after 30 is HARD. Our single friends are painfully lonely but the older they get the more insular they are.

Another attempt to summarize 330 million people with a half dozen numbers. Yawn.

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