Tanzania unveils its first locally assembled aircraft, Skyleader 600 | Hacker News Reader

Tanzania unveils its first locally assembled aircraft, Skyleader 600

africa.businessinsider.com

70 pointsflorgy81 comments

This is interesting if it's true:

"David Grolic also noted that these aircraft are affordable and paying for one is comparable to paying for a car. They also have low operational costs, consume little energy, and are easily maintainable. The director noted that the initial plan revolves around domestic sales before eventually pivoting to selling to the international market."

The U.S. version of the Skyleader 600 seems to go for about $120k[1]. So, either cars are more expensive in Tanzania, or that country's version of the Skyleader is gonna be significantly cheaper.

[1] https://www.flyskyleader.com/models/skyleader%20600

The country does have a cumulative 60% tax on imported cars, which they are likely comparing to [1]. A $60k luxury car is about $90k sold locally, which is indeed comparable.

[1] https://blog.kobemotor.com/all-posts/kobe-featured-posts/how...

Indeed https://www.cartanzania.com/en/vehicle_listings/ad-toyota-la...

That's more expensive than in UAE

I am not a pilot but I've been told by many that a large chunk of a new airplane price is the cost of certification which also provides a great incentive for manufacturers to design one product, get it certified, and sell it without major modifications for decades to avoid re-certifying it.

How did they manage to produce a $120K aircraft then? Is it not subject to the same certification requirements as the Cessna 172 which features similar specs but at 3x the price?

A Cessna 172 ironically is probably worth more than an average equivalent non-Cessna plane ironically because it's so ubiquitous that parts, experience, and understanding are everywhere. It's the Ford Focus of light aircraft, beloved by those learning to fly, and actually usually holds a premium as a result. I take your point though; but the real reason everything in aviation is so expensive is that it is traceable, documented, and with known MTBFs and characteristics -- all requirements that are completely and utterly written in blood.

> Is it not subject to the same certification requirements as the Cessna 172 which features similar specs but at 3x the price?

Maybe the question should be, what exactly justifies an airplane first flown in 1955 being 3x the price..?

>a large chunk of a new airplane price is the cost of certification

That seems rather odd. Is this because unlike cars, the cost of certification is spread out among much fewer models, or for some other reason?

The cost of certifying a new aircraft model is significantly higher than a car. It's like $25m for non-commercial aircraft? I forget the exact number but it's quite high.

It could be lower since this thing has only 1 passenger capacity

I think it is under light sport so it is a different certification

The Rotax 912 is 30k and up on its own (and made in Europe), so doubtful it’s actually much cheaper there. Probably some savings in insurance; it’s said something like half the price of a new certificated plane is insurance.

While not alleviating a need for a car unless all the airports are walking distance for business people.

Maybe not comparable, but $120k is still very cheap for a brand new fully enclosed aircraft.

> comparable to paying for a car

I'd say $120k and $24k are comparable. In comparison, one is five times the other.

In 2017, Skyleader was purchased by the Chinese firm Zair Aerospace, which is headquartered in Wuhan. Zair set up a local production line in Hubei to manufacture the Zair JA600 that received Chinese state certification in 2019. The JA600 is a development of the Skyleader 600. [0]

Airplanes Africa Limited (AAL), a Morogoro-based aircraft manufacturer, has unveiled the first aircraft assembled in Tanzania. [1]

Grolig said the company is working with a team of Tanzanian and Czech employees to manufacture the aircraft and has also provided employment opportunities for young Tanzanians. Some of these employees have even been selected for internships in the Czech Republic. [1]

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyleader

1. https://www.thecitizen.co.tz/tanzania/news/national/tanzania...

Tanzania is interesting with it's huge amount of bush airports that get a decent amount of traffic from safaris and other local travelers. Trips that take 10 hours on the road can be done in a 45 minute flight.

Not Tanzania, but I've experienced what my guide called the "African back-massage" of hours bouncing along corrugated roads into Serengeti National Park. I wouldn't mind flying next time, plus I think it'd be beautiful.

Serengeti National Park is actually in Tanzania :)

And a little triangular-shaped bit of the same ecosystem extends northward into Keya, where it is called the Masai Mara. The border between the two countries is marked only by some widely spaced stone pylons. There is no fence not any other indication that you are at an international border.

And in Masai Mara (just outside the gate), I am setting up a Safari lodge/camp site - specially targeting digital nomads and the backpacker crowd that looks for good internet connection (Starlink) and infrastructure + the community aspect which is really missing in that area.

Would be great to have thoughts / feedback from the HN Community. Also happy to chat in general if you're planning a safari trip :) Email is in my profile.

I've grown up in Tanzania and partially based in Kenya past few years and partially in California, I'm intimately familiar with the safari scene there. Spoiler - it's incredible.

That sounds rad. Would love to visit. Masai mara and Serengeti are incredible indeed.

Pleasantly surprised to see Tz on front-page for once rather than Ke.

Curious to hear more! I was there last year for the Migration Gravel Race. Amazing place.

I grew up in Tanzania (Dar) too. Do we know each other? :)

Do you have a web site set up?

LOL you are right, total brain melt from me. I was getting it mixed up with Zambia for some reason.

To that end, I'm kinda surprised it is a low wing. High wing makes for better visibility for scouting and is easier for less trained pilots to fly.

In my experience low wings were much easier to land for inexperienced pilots (as the wings get solidly into ground effect - high wing planes are often basically at the top of ground effect).

_maybe_ it makes a difference within the first few hours of training, but once one is able to land consistently the difference is negligible. The minor differences between different planes in general is far more noticeable than just high vs low (and "in general" most small planes land very similarly anyway)

The big reason for high wing bush planes is for ground clearance, and to avoid damage from debris kicked up by the wheels.

Is a biplane the worst or best of both worlds?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2

Let's put it this way - how many biplanes do you see being made?

As I understand it, biplanes have an adverse lift/drag ratio, making them less economical to run. This is different factor than having a balance between good center of gravity yet also maintaining wing in ground effect. For example, biplanes are still used for certain air show sorties even if they aren’t the main event.

The biggest benefit that biplanes (may) have involves acrobatic flight and wing tricks.

In general one wing wonders work better (and you even say some of the later biplanes not having wings right over each other).

But it's aimed at business, not tourism.

This is great news. This could bring jobs and link lots of regions of what's a fairly large (bigger than texas) country. Someone should start a pilots school for these planes.

Wow, Tanzania has really been on the upswing the past two decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Tanzania#/media/Fil...

"business travelers on longer journeys"

I am not entirely sure if a 1 passenger airplane is great for business travel. If you are a wanna be Larry Ellison pilot and businesstraveller.

It's a 2 passenger plane - 1 pilot plus 1 additional passenger.

According to the first 10 sources I see for a "define passenger" Google search, the pilot is not a passenger. One of those sources is even for legal purposes. I have also never heard anyone refer to the driver/pilot/crew as passengers. What am I missing here, is this some lingo specific to this context, or?

The term more often used is "seater" but with small planes the pilot is often a passenger (as in, he's flying himself to get somewhere).

If you are driving somewhere it doesn't make you a passenger though. Same with the airplane.

Passenger is defined as someone on board without operating the vehicle.

Therefor referred to as Pilot as the plane isnt going anywhere without them doing something.

Great can be defined in many ways. If you want the flexibility of a private plane on a much cheaper budget and you're traveling alone which seems like the case for a lot of business travel then this does sound like a great option.

this is more for the wannabe Larry Hillblom kinda type

>designed to accommodate two passengers, including the pilot

That's one passenger.

you don't call a 2-seater convertible like a Miata a one-passenger vehicle

And tellingly, you didn't call it a two-passenger vehicle, either :)

It's a "2-seater" because it would be confusing to count the driver's seat as a passenger seat.

If I tell you I left my sunglasses "on the passenger seat", I hope you don't respond, "Well? Which one?"

That’s because I’m heavily implying that everyone refers to a Miata as two-passenger vehicle. Just read the first sentence on its Wikipedia page. Same goes for sedans typically being 5-passenger vehicles (5 seatbelts).

Almost everyone can drive a car. Almost no one can fly a plane.

Almost no one can drive a manual. Or a double-clutch.

My point is the number of people qualified to operate a vehicle doesn’t change whether the operator is a passenger of the vehicle. I personally know more folks who can fly a small plane than drive a semi-truck.

Off topic: I noticed that the points count got reset with the URL was changed to businessinsider. Is this normally what happens?

Not if we change the URL on an existing submission, but in this case I moved the comments to a different submission (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37904530).

Assembled? So it was made somewhere else.

The first step to industrializing is assembling something. Right now it’s an aircraft, but with more money skills and capital, soon maybe it’s worth it to make a screw factory in the same city. Then maybe a steel smelter. And so on.

My uncle is an engineer specialising in glass bottle factory design and building. He's been to and from Tanzania (among other developing nations) a lot over the past 8 or so years building glass bottle plants and glass recycling plants.

Suffice to say, they're working on it.

On that note: breweries are bellweather industries. Need glass bottles, assembly lines. High hygiene and cleaning requirements, bringing more of the procedural sides of industrialization..

When a country starts brewing for global market, it's a good sign.

Is Tanzania brewing? I know South Africa has its own liquor that's somewhat popular, but I'm woefully uneducated about the rest of the continent.

I don't know if they're brewing for the world market, but when I was in Dar-es-Salam, I remember ordering Tanzanian beer (e.g. https://untappd.com/b/serengeti-breweries-ltd-serengeti-prem...)

They're also expanding their STEM and Management education as well.

They've been working with IIT Madras to open an engineering campus in Zanzibar [0] and have built a management/leadership program with China [1].

That said, both of these seem to be a part of the larger regional Cold War between China and India in the Indo-Pac region, but Tanzania has potential similar to Bangladesh and Vietnam 20-30 years ago. If they can navigate this, they can jumpstart their development.

Portions of Eastern Africa (Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda) definitely have potential, though others seem lackluster (Rwanda's development has been significant, but seems largely PR driven instead of fundamentals driven - they are still extremely dependent on Foreign Aid compared to other similar countries in the region)

[0] - https://zanzibar.iitm.ac.in/

[1] - http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0304/c90000-9965681.html

I worked a temp job assembling Toshiba CD-ROM drives in America. We attached a face bevel to the drive, ran a quick electrical test, then packed them up into boxes that said "Assembled in America".

With another step or a longer test or higher pay, Toshiba could have passed the 50% cost threshold for "Made in America".

Aircraft are fractals of subassemblies. The engines are made in one place, the skin panels in another, the avionics are assembled in one place from components made in yet another, and so on.

Is it such a surprise to you that a complex machine such as an aircraft undergoes final assembly in one place, using parts and components made in another place? This is how just about everything is made.

Did you think Boeing mines its own aluminum ore, alloys it, forms it into panels, makes its own composite turbine blades, and fabs its own silicon chips?

This is an tiny kit plane from a Czech manufacturer, though, not a company in Tanzania sourcing components from elsewhere for their own design.

It's still great if it lets them build expertise and provides jobs, but they meant it when they said assembled.

>This is an tiny kit plane from a Czech manufacturer, though, not a company in Tanzania sourcing components from elsewhere for their own design.

So? There's more skill in that than in what, say, System76 does. Just installing Linux on a rebranded Clevo laptop and giving it a cringey name.

Tanzania has to start somewhere if they want to grow their industrial base.

So comparing it to an aircraft manufacturer sourcing components and outsourcing in response to someone asking if it meant it was manufactured elsewhere is entirely irrelevant.

This is a plane that anyone can buy off the shelf and put together themselves. You can message the Czech manufacturer on Facebook if you want one. Total cost is around $100k. This isn't Boeing having a lot of subcontractors.

Boeing's first aircraft design was highly derivative of another plane Bill Boeing had purchased. Porsche, regarded by many as having the best-engineered sports cars in the world, didn't have a fully in-house design until 1978 (almost 50 years after founding). Tesla started with a Lotus Elise derivative. Getting started with an existing design and working backward is a well-proven path to building a business when it's something as high stakes and complicated as an airplane.

> Porsche, regarded by many as having the best-engineered sports cars in the world, didn't have a fully in-house design until 1978 (almost 50 years after founding).

Ferdinand Porsche also founded VW so that’s a bit misleading, perhaps even intentionally so. Also the German economic system pretty much kept the good parts of fascism after the war, by requiring companies to work cooperatively both with their workers’ councils and each other.

If/when there is any indication that they are designing their own or adding anything to or modifying the design, then that will warrant a comparison with companies that does that. At present, what they have done is buy an off the shelf kit that comes with parts and detailed instructions and followed the instructions.

Who's claiming that it is?

Why are people in such a rush to shit on this company?

Because this is literally the direct equivalent of a company buying unassembled products from Ikea, assembling them, and then claiming to be a furniture manufacturer. There was no transformative element to what they created, they bought an off-the-shelf consumer kit and built it. Pull out your credit card, invest about 2000 hours of fairly basic manual labor, and you can do the same thing. Tens of thousands of other people have already done so.

>Because this is literally the direct equivalent of a company buying unassembled products from Ikea, assembling them, and then claiming to be a furniture manufacturer.

Please cite where AAL claims to be an aircraft manufacturer.

Nobody is shitting on them. I'm reacting to you comparing them to Boeing. It's great they're doing this, but it's also not something that is meaningful to compare to a company that actually designs planes.

Gotta start somewhere. May as well roll with a proven design.

People build kit planes in their backyards :/

Yea, but after doing so, what you learn is too trivial to teach anyone else because there are hundreds of people near you who know way more.

But do it somewhere less advantaged and you become a valuable resource.

Up until the 787, Boeing was an engineering company who did the lion's share of it's own R&D and fabrication. For all intents and purposes they were effectively the airline manufacturing industry to a lot of people.

The 787 changed all that, Boeing moved their longtime headquarters to Chicago, outsourced all their manufacturing, to follow just in time manufacturing and offload risk to contractors. In more recent years Boeing has started to bring a lot of their manufacturing back in house.

They're not totally vertically integrated like Tesla is attempting to do right now (they just opened a lithium ore processing plant) but they used to build most of their own sub assemblies.

For some people yes. Many people still imagine "Boeing aircraft assembly buildings." You know the ones south of Seattle that combine tires from the tire manufacturer, machined parts from everywhere, engines from another manufacturer, etc into an assembled aircraft.

Maybe 3D printing will truly take us back to "locally assembled" looking more like raw materials in, finished sellable product out. But we know that's probably going to also feel disappointing to someone remembering the way steam locomotives were assembled in those old films about the railways in England. Now that was assembly!

It's a Czech-based Chinese-owned manufacturer which provides kits.

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch...

Don't underestimate the difficulty of assembling something you specified as a bunch of parts, even when you work with a known manufacturer of "kits". Training a team to do it more than once is another challenge.

Anyone who has assembled flat pack furniture knows only a little bit of the frustration of assembling as complex a item as a plane.

Skyleader - iconic bush plane the Cassena Skymaster.

>> The Morogoro-based aircraft company, Airplanes Africa Limited (AAL), displayed the first-ever assembled aircraft in Tanzania on Wednesday.

First ever commercially marketed aircraft. There must have been someone in the country that once put together a kit aircraft, an ultralight, or even a balloon. No doubt countless have been "assembled" in Tanzania.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com