Nitrous oxide: Laughing gas possession to be illegal in three weeks | Hacker News Reader

Nitrous oxide: Laughing gas possession to be illegal in three weeks

bbc.co.uk

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Everybody just became whipped creme producers.

Sorry copper, I like whipped cream to go with my 4am coffee at the rave. Legitmate use and all that.

I wonder why we're using N2O at all for whipped cream though? Why not propane like for deodorants or even CO2?

CO2 imparts a sour taste. The bubbles are also bigger, which provides a different and less creamy mouthfeel.

Wouldn’t CO2 carbonate as it whips?

No propane because who wants to eat propane? Apparently it's NO2 because it dissolves easily into the cream[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipped-cream_charger

You don't wanna eat propane.

C02 and water makes carbonic acid, which creates an acidic/bitter taste. This is fine and even desirable in some things like soda and beer but in whipped cream it’s pretty gross. The bubbles are also less stable which is why you get popping carbonation instead of something more akin to a smooth foam head on a nitro brew

N2o doesn’t react with water and the bubbles are more stable so it is a far superior choice for whipped cream. Those bubbles dissolve in the fat of the cream under pressure then upon release aerate the cream resulting in a lighter, fluffier product. That’s why propane wouldn’t work (plus imo propane also imparts an off flavor and I don’t want to eat it despite it being generally recognized as safe). N2o also inhibits bacterial growth, both through replacing oxygen in the canister (which all 3 would do) but also because it’s bacteriostatic. Probably other stuff too

This law is dumb. Make your own whipped cream! A siphon is like $50 now. It makes whipped cream super fast without needing to whisk a bunch and you can also use it to make pickles really fast. You can also use it to carbonate fruit slices and make cocktails if you get c02 chargers

Thanks for the detailed answer.

> Make your own whipped cream! A siphon is like $50 now.

Is that really cost effective compared to buying bottled whipped-cream though?

I bought a siphon to make whipped cream (and other recipes) a couple of weeks ago. Fresh cream from it tastes a lot better than from the store bought canisters. Not sure what the reason is, but I'm guessing the store bought canisters contain additional chemicals to extend the shelf life.

At .50 EUR per N2O load (plus the siphon) it is somewhat of a luxury of course. But if you're into cooking, I think it's a reasonable investment. I'm looking forward to trying a Hollandaise recipe next. It's much easier to make in a siphon than using the traditional technique over a water bath.

> I'm looking forward to trying a Hollandaise recipe next. It's much easier to make in a siphon than using the traditional technique over a water bath.

What? How does that work with a siphon? How are the eggs yolks cooking then? Or is using the siphon giving you the same texture without actually cooking the yolks?

They are cooked by the hot butter and you can also put the siphon into a hot water bath for a short amount of time.

To be fair, the texture is not exactly the same as traditional hollandaise. But it's much easier to get it right.

It’s mainly because they use shitty cream. Try adding xanthan gum and/or a carageenan to stabilize the whipped cream and keep the peaks stiffer longer. Will also extend shelf life a bit and make it taste a bit creamier.

The other thing you can do with these is reduce the fat content a bit as they will make it taste creamier with less fat thus giving you a similar tasting product for less calories. However, this could also explain why your home made product is superior as side by side full fat will generally still taste better. I still think most major producers cheap out on their cream supply though and use low quality cream that tastes mediocre regardless of fat content though.

All the hallmarks of a policy from a government that has entirely run out of ideas. An easy target because it's mostly young people, who are never going to vote Tory at the next election. Stupid that they're spending time on this because no-one will take any notice when it comes to voting - people are much more concerned about the fact that large numbers of people are struggling to pay their mortgage / rent and the health service is crumbling after years of underinvestment.

What harm does nitrous oxide usage inflict to the user or to the society and how is its criminalization meant to do any good to anybody, let alone more good than harm?

To the user, over a period of time, brain damage

Nerve damage to be exact. Loss of mobility/dexterity and of some proprioception (not temporary) were reported after nitrous oxide anesthesia since at least the 90s (I actually think it's before but I can't research it right now).

I guess the risk is getting to little oxygen if inhaled in concentrated form? At the dentist it is mixed with oxygen. Doesn't warrant a total ban on for fun use though. Maybe pubs shouldn't sell it ...

Also long term use might lead to chronic problems.

Mainly people are taking this outside of home and often whilst driving, cycling, or riding scooters:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/09/cardiff-cras...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-high-laughing-gas-...

It's quickly become the 2nd biggest killer of the volatile substances. I guess it also doesn't have many legitimate uses compared with others (glues and fuels etc):

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde...

In terms of the harm to the user: nitrous oxide oxidises the cobalt in cobalamin (B12), rendering it inactive. Serious B12 deficiency from heavy use over a long period of time can (and does in practice, although not necessarily that commonly) cause permanent disability (neurological damage, leading to weakness etc...). It can also cause more acute harm if people inhale it without enough oxygen.

Going after users is unlikely to be a net positive for harm reduction, compared to increasing education on the risks, and maybe some kind of regulation on how and where it is sold.

It occasionally kills people. It can be lethal in enclosed spaces.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-03-07-mn-3546-s...

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/asphyxia...

Abuse of nitrous oxide is also dangerous to people's health and today we are sending a clear signal to young people that there are consequences for misusing drugs. Both users and dealers will face the full force of the law for their actions."

Why not ban alcohol and tobacco then ?

Critics have previously warned against a ban, saying it could stop users seeking medical help, but the government says it is clamping down on antisocial behaviour and drug taking in public.

Again alcohol does this

I wish the government would focus on decarbonisation and real crime and mind their own fucking business when it comes to recreational drug use…

Alcohol will never be on the table for a ban, but there's been some movement on having a New Zealand style phase-out of tabacco.

Which is also nonsense.

I dislike smoking as much as anyone, but banning it altogether for recreational consumption? Completely ridiculous.

Education and support to help people quit is the best defense against stupid. Not bans.

I don't want the government to "send me signals" to control my behavior. That kind of crap belongs to unfree countries.

Not offering an opinion one way or the other on either of these, but the government does have plans to ban tobacco in a phased approach, so someone who's 14 now would never be able to buy tobacco legally.

> When used as a recreational drug it is inhaled, and can make people feel relaxed, giggly, light-headed or dizzy.

sounds much less riskier than alcohol, then why not ban alcohol? Oh well, why wasting yet another opportunity to control people's behaviour?

I live in London. The number of times you see industrial-sized cans of nitrous oxide thrown on the street is disgusting. Bars also have signs in the window that people aren't allowed in if they've taken nitrous oxide.

then fine the littering?

Isn't it sorta easy to generate? Just take a look at the Wikipedia article - just heating ammonia generates it (if the product is a bit wet so run it through a tank of kitty litter). Looking into it more a glycol might work in absorbing both the water and the left over ammonia.

Other reactions are listed as well and they look like the reactants could be got in useful quantities without that much trouble.

So easy to generate and I can think of a few ways to semi-bulk distribute with minimal capital outlay. OFC a black market economy will mean terrible safety of the product.

> just heating ammonia generates it

Didn't this cause the explosion in Beirut?

We aren't all in Beirut

Fertilizer caused the explosion - ammonia-nitrate I think not ammonia.

for context, this government has been in power for thirteen years, is on their fifth Prime Minister, and has acommplished nothing of note aside from grinding down public services and growth and leaving the world's largest free trade area, but still have a year left of their term so are just spending that time fucking around doing nothing except dumb things like this.

This is not really about the social impact of Nitrous oxide use at all. The origin of the upset is based in the litering of the capsules used.

The government doesn't care about the underlying issue (the reason for public annoyance or such trivialities like the effectiveness of prohibition), they discovered this policy polls at >51% in a target demo (older folk) so the policy is a go.

Some background: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/topic-overviews/re...

So the government wants us breathing more carbon monoxide and less nitrous oxide. Strange times.

I read nothing about cars, isn't that the same stuff? (As you can see, I'm neither an expert on drug use nor on tuning cars.)

I suppose the system itself is street legal in many countries, even if maybe not the use. But even if you assume track usage...

How efficient it actually is? I laugh much less than I would like to. I do have adequate sense of humour and can find jokes funny but that's just a thought, I hardly ever laugh actually. Can the gas help me?

I was pretty much an addict of it, and it did make me laugh just a couple of times. That is not the main appeal.

What is the main appeal?

It feels quite trippy and delirious and somewhat physically pleasurable and if you have enough you teleport into another dimension

A humble amount of Salvia Divinorum smoked will catapult you to the orbit of the multiverse beyond all the dimensions you could ever imagine in an instant then gently land you completely back to Earth in just some minutes safely. This is not really pleasurable (that's why its abuse potential is low - I doubt many people would want to repeat the trip shortly after) but definitely impressing while free of any discomfort and physically safe.

NOTHING about salvia divinorum is gentle.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

I think this is overreacting to a real but localized issue. Or rather, underreacting and targeting the wrong cause.

Also, that move should shove a boot up the ass of the medical community. Maybe in the 90s, there was less alternative for anesthesia, but hopefully in 2023, you shouldn't have any reason to use it. We know it's toxic since like the 80s. Less mortal than letting people die, so i have nothing against those who used it then (and doctors who currently use it in poor or emerging countries), but if you have the resources to use better equipment, it's almost criminal to still use it.

http://www.thedrugswheel.com/

Well, now they made sure it is impossible to control that underaged teenagers can continue using that stuff.

On laughing gas I realized that the entire cosmos is the smell of burnt almonds

— paraphrasing William James

“ there are no differences, but differences of degree between different degrees of difference and no difference”

What about usage in cars and vehicles? It's popular at the drag strip, for one.

You may be thinking of nitromethane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide#Internal_combust...

I have the same question, the UK has a very well-known Drag Strip (Santa Pod). People all over Europe goes there, it's going to hit the track.

Ironically, it's use in cars (by the people driving them, not for performance) is probably a major reason it is being banned:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/09/cardiff-cras...

Had it once, gave me intense euphoria for a very limited time (less than a minute), kind of a stupid drug.

Of all the substances to forbid, this one? Vitamin B12 deficiency, really now? How much of it do you have to take for that to occur? Also, probably the easiest deficiency to correct.

Agreed. Unless you are doing psychedelics. In which case it acts as a catalyst.

Interestingly, part of the reason it is still used is because it allows for a reduction in dosage for other things are also used as part of the cocktail prescribed for modern anasthesia.

I was curious so I went and looked. I will definitely be reducing my usage of it to only when I do psychedelics.

https://clinicalview.gehealthcare.com/article/use-or-not-use...

Surprisingly, I did not see any synergy with mushrooms. Just lsd.

Believe it or not, but some people started to take amounts like 250 balloons a day. The consequences of chronic B12 deficiency are serious and irreversible; nerve damage and paralysis.

Also now and then someone decides to drive a car while inhaling NO2, which as you can imagine, is not really a bright idea.

These are rare cases but unfortunately these people are spoiling it for the rest.

> these people are spoiling it for the rest.

These people aren't spoiling it for the rest. The government was always going to ban it because:

(a) the government and the opposition always favour authoritarian drugs laws; and

(b) they are unpopular and (due to ideology) incapable of solving real problems, so they announce terrible policies instead.

Doesn’t the balloon get in the way?

There was petrol sniffing, and then people having a cigarette afterwards.

The glue sniffing.

So many silver phials dumped on the pavement, now people are buying the catering sized canisters of Nitrous oxide, and dumping that too.

> 250 balloons a day

Ok, can not emphasise with that, at all.

> someone decides to drive a car while inhaling NO2

How? Why? It completely takes you out of commission for a few seconds / minute(s?) at best. Why would one take THAT while driving, it makes no sense.

Like alcohol (although through a different mechanism), it has an effect on how fast your neurons communicate with each others, for hours. But without the short-term bad effects of alcohol.

It's not taking it while driving, it's taking it before it was purged from your organism.

It's about an absurd amount of this shit lying down on the grass in all parks, doesn't matter there is trash bin 2m away etc.

Throwing shit outside of trash bins should be punishable by mandatory community service of picking up trash.

It's also very hard to prove that someone inhaled this stuff even very shortly after. Even if you find somone crashed into a siderail on the highway with empty balloons and canisters of laughing gas on the passenger seat, there's no way to prove that it was the gas.

Aside from the fact that people get addicted and do this way too frequently, a ban might help prevent those kinds of accidents.

Accidents happen all the time for any number of products. As was linked earlier over 700 people die every year in the US from being tangled in their bed sheets. Banning something because its involved in an accident is rarely the correct move. Was it 'involved in' or was it the 'contributing cause of' are very different things.

Lots of bars in Vietnam give this out for free.

How will I hit 10 second pass now?

Yeah, surely prohibition will work this time. /s

You've been downvoted but you're right. Banning drugs doesn't stop consumption.

However, drugs bans can shift people from safer drugs to borderline-legal but unsafer drugs. It also prevents people getting purer drugs, leading to unsafe mixtures. And there is a chilling affect on safe consumption information, as well as accessing medical treatment.

It also leads to people seeking drugs illegally, which in turn can result in people taking more dangerous drugs because illegal drug dealers have a profit motive without being constrained by the legality of the drugs they're selling.

In that case, user are going to use Butane instead. It's far worst for the body, but easily accessible and cheap.

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