Comment by Arkhaine_kupo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Arkhaine_kupo | Hacker News Reader

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> If Kant is being invoked about this we might have strayed into the weeds just a little!

I find his ethics quite a bore, like many christian thinkers he very quickly skips all the fun bits to jump into "god" as an answer. But the universal maxim principle is quite fun to use as a metric for "small infractions" that are easy to wave away (specially when forgiving yourself) but that would make live hell if everyone did them all the time.

> There weren’t.

They were though. Maybe not explicitly but social contracts are still rules. And despite having usernames and not personaly linked info most people assume 1 nick = 1 person. If I created twelve accounts and replied to you with all of them, sure no "rules" would be broken, but anyone who stumbled upon this conversation would implicitly think a large number of people disagree with you.

Famous users have been banned later into the platforms lifecycle for doing exactly that, just getting a few accounts to upvote themselves. In reddits economy the first 5 upvotes are are good as the next 1000 basically.

> And nobody who liked Reddit then or now would have any problem with what the founders did to simulate activity and get it growing.

They do not know what they could not get. If there was a better app, a better founding team who was chasing Digg's fall but did not cheat they might be left in the dust of history. And in a parallel universe the users would be happier with that platform than they are now on Reddit.

Capitalism could reward something more than speed (or in this case network effects) if someone else had a better platform without sock puppet accounts.

(Similar arguments can be made about the jailbait subreddit and the ethical implications of that and the initial growth of reddit but thats just seeing trends in their ethical behaviour beyond their founding)

There is no “social contract” against simulating usage on a site that has no organic usage.

> a better founding team who was chasing Digg's fall but did not cheat

Every new social site has to find some trick to kickstart usage and break out of their chicken-and-egg trap. There’s no “cheating” to speak of here. It’s playfulness. The teams that tried and failed to grow this kind of thing would have failed due to a lack of playfulness and imagination.

I say again, we can afford to see the fun in this, and commenters might reflect on their need to react to my appeal against grumpiness by replying with more grumpiness.

> There is no “social contract” against simulating usage on a site that has no organic usage

If we cannot agree that most people expect nick to mean one person then we are not gonna agree on anything else. But that is one of the most basic assumptions of anonymous internet comms since IRC.

> Every new social site has to find some trick to kickstart usage and break out of their chicken-and-egg trap.

good marketing, leveraging existing IRL networks, transparent content from the founding team.

Youtube made a video with the creators at the zoo, Facebook used harvard students knowing each other irl, etc.

> There’s no “cheating” to speak of here. It’s playfulness.

They say the way to hell is paved with good intentions. Playfullness is a very cute way to frame deceit, but its still a lie to most.

Grumpiness out of the market rewarding liars and cheaters is the obvious, and normal response. The proposed goal of a market led economy is the efficient market hypothesis, if you find obvious, glaring, examples of non optimal solutions (such as cheating, corruption, law breaking, scams, deceit, fraud etc) being rewarded instead of punished then yeah you should be grumpy.

Please try and step outside yourself for a moment and consider how many extreme words (hell, deceit, lie, cheating, corruption, law breaking, scams, fraud) you've included in this comment, about an act that nobody has ever claimed to be harmed by and no government agency has ever expressed any concerns about, and by your own argumentation can only be deemed wrong according to the philosophies of Immanuel Kant, which is no objective standard of morality at all - just one person's musings a couple of centuries ago. If the Reddit foundation story was as self-evidently heinous as you're insisting, you wouldn't need to use all those charged words.

> how many extreme words (hell, deceit, lie, cheating, corruption, law breaking, scams, fraud)

Extreme words? Half of them are simple descriptive nouns of legal parameters being broken?

> about an act that nobody has ever claimed to be harmed by and no government agency has ever expressed any concerns about

"Nobody has ever claimed to be harmed by", seems wrong considering Reddit has now banned the practice, Hacker news bans the practice, Steam bans the practice and most anonoymous online forums have explicit rules against fake account, multiple accounts etc?

If nobody is harmed why are they explicitly banned by the large part of the ecosystem? Also the goverment in multiple countries has proposed end of anonimity bans, things like tying your twitter to your driver license or passport. In what universe is that "no goverment has expressed concern" when they went full end of privacy over it?

> by your own argumentation can only be deemed wrong according to the philosophies of Immanuel Kant

That was a simple thought experiment, and no, by my own argumentation it is wrong entirely based on the fact its deceitful. And lies are inherently wrong. In this case they disrupt one of the assumptions of the market model, but in any social interaction they usually break a rule. In conversation they would break one of Grice's maxims.

> If the Reddit foundation story was as self-evidently heinous as you're insisting, you wouldn't need to use all those charged words.

They deceitfully added content to their site. I dont know how that is a charged adjective, its what they did by definition. The rest of them where in relation to other points, things like corruption and scams grow from small deceits, that is just studied psychology.

First, a couple of claims of fact to correct:

- Reddit, HN, X/Twitter, Instagram, plenty of other sites have no bans on the kind of usage of multiple accounts that the Reddit founders were doing. Plenty of people have multiple accounts for all kinds of different purposes and nobody considers it wrong. The kind of sockpuppeting/astroturfing/self-posting/ringvoting that is banned on social sites is very different, and banned for very different reasons, vs. the early Reddit conduct.

- 'In what universe is that "no goverment has expressed concern" when they went full end of privacy over it?' - "...over it" is a complete falsehood and another sign you're on weak ground. Some governments have proposed identity requirements on social media platforms but for reasons that have nothing to do with anything the Reddit founders did for a few weeks in 2005.

- "it is wrong entirely based on the fact its deceitful. And lies are inherently wrong" - As I wrote elsewhere, we all accept that mistruths can be benign, beneficial or funny in some circumstances; white lies, pranks, jokes, stunts, hacks. It all comes back to who was harmed, and you still can't name a case of someone who was harmed by what Reddit did, you've only suggested hypotheticals and inferences.

I've certainly spent enough time in this discussion, and I know it's a bad look on HN to perpetuate tit-for-tat arguments, so I'm certainly out. When I engage in a lengthy discussion like this, which I don't do often, it's to try and figure out what I'm missing about a topic - i.e., what has someone thought of about this that I haven't thought of?

What I see in some of your comments is at least borderline fulmination, which is in breach of the HN guidelines. I also see in this and other of your comments, as well as those from others taking the same position in the subthread, several cases of the beg-the-question fallacy: that is, trying to prove that this act was something egregious by assuming it was egregious, and using words that necessarily characterise it as the worst kind of transgression, when the severity of the transgression is the very thing that's in question.

The right way to discuss this topic is to explore exactly what kind of deception was committed and who was actually harmed by it, but I'm just seeing repeated insistences that we accept that this was a terrible act, without any earnest effort to demonstrate it.

> Reddit, HN, X/Twitter, Instagram, plenty of other sites have no bans on the kind of usage of multiple accounts that the Reddit founders were doing.

Reddit founders were posting, commenting and using various accounts. It all fits astroturning and sockpuppeting. Again if they wanted to just have content there is 0 reason to not disclose they are admins. They pretended it was organic for a reason.

> Some governments have proposed identity requirements on social media platforms but for reasons that have nothing to do with anything the Reddit founders did for a few weeks in 2005.

Stopping bots astrofurning (more i the political context) is a reason given both in US and UK proposals. So yeah goverments have mentioned "people pretending to be more than they are" as a reason. You can be extremely nitpicky and pretend that it doesn't cover this case, but its certainly in the intention of the law.

> you still can't name a case of someone who was harmed by what Reddit did

Every other forum that provided a similar service. From niche forums, that were gobbled up by reddit, to other digg alternatives. Reddit swallowed communities with insane growth, all predicated on fake engagement. If you make a hoodie brand and buy 10,000 followers on instagram and people think you are popular and you jump over other brands who are doing a better job, you have lied and deprived people from finding those other brands that had a better product.

> The right way to discuss this topic is to explore exactly what kind of deception was committed and who was actually harmed by it

The deception was non transparent content, predicated on the expectations of the audience, intended to portray the product as more popular than it is. This lie vulnerates the predicate of honesty of the optimal market hypothesis which is the basis of the modern market economy. The people who were harmed where thus direct competitors and future consumers because those are the intended parties of the optimal market hypothesis.

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