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Comment by jwr | Hacker News Reader

> On the consumer side, I tend to see Amex as not widely accepted. Especially drops when traveling.

As a B2B SaaS owner, I don't accept Amex, because they make me jump through extra hoops. I process all cards through Braintree, but Amex requires an extra agreement directly with them, and they make the process of signing those agreements really difficult and obnoxious. I have better things to do with my time.

I did a quick search, here's a partial list of what was required:

· Please provide a scanned copy of Passports for authorized signers and Beneficial Owners.

· Please provide a scanned copy of Certificate of incorporation

· Please Provide a Completed Multi Currency form, Attached

· Please provide a completed and Signed Side Letter, Attached

· Please provide a completed and Signed W8 BEN form, Attached

(BTW, I am not based in the US, so "W8 BEN" reads like Klingon to me).

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Lots of replies, and most are misguided, so I'll add:

I am a B2B SaaS business based outside the US. Tax withholding is not applicable between my customers and me, or at least it is not my responsibility. VAT is solved by reverse charge.

I do have payment processing set up (with Braintree). The above AMEX requirements were on top of that — a completely separate procedure, just because AMEX feels different.

As to the W8 BEN discussion, be careful with your biases: it might seem "obvious" to you that everyone needs to comply with whatever IRS requires of US businesses, if you live in the US. But I have customers in 44 countries. If you are American, before you state that something is obviously required, take a look at this (from recent E-mail):

"Self-Certified Filled Form 10F will be required"

"Permanent Account Number or Aadhaar Number of the assessee if allotted"

"Period for which the residential status as mentioned in the certificate referred to in sub-section (4) of section 90 or sub-section (4) of section 90A is applicable"

Still looks obvious? Those are from India, and I'm pretty sure these requirements seem totally obvious to my Indian customers.

Piece of advice - read up on that W8-BEN.

W-8 BEN doesn't apply to him because it's for foreign individuals who receive non-business income. He needs a W-8 BEN-E most likely.

Imagine being outside the US and thinking "prove you're an incorporated business, prove the major players in your company exist, and fill out this tax form for foreigners"

...is "extra hoops" and "really difficult and obnoxious"

> (BTW, I am not based in the US, so "W8 BEN" reads like Klingon to me).

If only there were technology to look up what 'W8 BEN' means in seconds

Just saying, the UK has a form of business called a "Sole Trader" where you don't even need to notify the government about until it's tax time. Something like a "Certificate of incorporation" doesn't even exist for that.

So yeah, sometimes it fucks things up.

In the UK you can register whatever limited liability company you like on Companies House without any formal process except handling tax accounts (or sometimes VAT). No proof required at all for this, you’ll only need it to set up a company bank account (and that will just be notarised ID).

It just so happens that the UK is therefore an incredibly easy place to dodge tax if you are so inclined.

> Imagine being outside the US and thinking "prove you're an incorporated business, prove the major players in your company exist, and fill out this tax form for foreigners"

> ...is "extra hoops" and "really difficult and obnoxious"

Compare with how willing US citizens or businesses are to comply with similarly basic things when another country asks for them.

Selling on Amazon in dozens of countries requires only one from, that from the US. No other country.

Even if I don't sell in the US. Even if I never go to the US. Even if I have no company in the US.

Imagine everyone in the US selling on Amazon needing to sign a German form, and a French form, and a UK form, and a Spanish form etc. with no intention to sell in these countries.

From a french perspective, that seems like tuesday.

W-8BEN form is the most obnoxious form I've ever seen. It's written in incredibly opaque and obtuse language and covers far too many scenarios.

And the most incredibly annoying thing about it is that for most UK companies (dont' forget if you are a limited company you need the W-8BEN-E variant!) you probably only have to fill in about 5 short fields. So it only really needs to be half a page. However working out which fields is virtually impossible and I'm still not entirely sure I fill it out correctly.

If every other payment provider accepts the vendor's terms and that the vendor already has KYC details on file with its US-authorised payment gateway, AMEX requiring signed scanned copies of its own payment terms and multiple forms of identity to be individually emailed to them for each and every transaction is the definition of 'extra hoops', and it seems quite reasonable to consider it difficult and obnoxious.

For a lot of transaction sizes it isn't really worth the extra effort, particularly as filling in forms like the W8 BEN E is the kind of work people tend to pay their accountant - quite possibly more than the value of the SaaS subscription - to do. (As someone who happily prepares his own tax returns once a year, the W8 BEN E is not a particularly straightforward form to fill in for comparatively little benefit)

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