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Comment by Tactical45 | Hacker News Reader

I wonder if hybrid being more reliable than gasoline cars is simply a function of most of those being Toyota, versus any effect stemming from the car being Hybrid.

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A standard hybrid (of the sort that a range of companies make, handwavingly a parallel hybrid with creep capability, which a PHEV is just a supersized version of) eliminates a huge swath of things that go wrong with ICEs.

First and foremost, the transmission replaces the rather staggering pile of complexity of a modern automatic transmission, typically, with "a few motor/generators, some planetary gears, maybe a band that only engages when a motor is already stopped, and some power electronics." Compared to the 9+ speed automatics, this is dramatically simpler. Quite a few hybrids don't even have a mechanical reverse gear, it's just using the electronics for that brief period.

But, beyond that, you generally aren't asking the engine to idle, or to provide "starting torque" for the car - the hybrid system handles that sort of thing well. On at least the Gen 1 Volts, the motor "idles" at about 1200-1300 RPM, vs the ~750 RPM in most other vehicles, because it's almost never needed at low speed (heating in the dead of winter is the one time I notice it). But you don't have low speed, high load operation on the engines (which is a hard regime to operate in), and you don't have rapid speed changes with gear shifts (which is certainly more stressful than smooth speed changes or continuous speed operation).

You have less brake system wear, and... it goes on.

I know there's this popular "Hybrids/PHEVs are the most complicated of both worlds, so they must be the most unreliable of all worlds!" thing going around, but the data is quite clear that they're exceedingly reliable in actual use, and the "most complicated of all worlds" things tends to zoom out far enough to avoid looking at the transmission or engine design at any level of detail.

> "First and foremost, the transmission replaces the rather staggering pile of complexity of a modern automatic transmission, typically, with "a few motor/generators, some planetary gears, maybe a band that only engages when a motor is already stopped, and some power electronics." Compared to the 9+ speed automatics, this is dramatically simpler. Quite a few hybrids don't even have a mechanical reverse gear, it's just using the electronics for that brief period."

There are very few PHEVs that aren't using the same automatic gearbox as the plain-ole ICE model. You are describing the architecture the Prius uses I guess? In almost all cases the manufacturer just wraps a small electric motor around the output shaft of the same automatic gearbox connected to a small battery.

Mazda PHEVs - same auto gearboxes

BMW PHEVs - same auto gearboxes

Volvo PHEVs - same auto gearboxes

Mercedes PHEVs - same auto gearboxes

etc

There are probably some other exceptions i'm missing, but few PHEVs have a custom gearbox. While they may be just as reliable in many cases, they are almost always more complex designs than their ICE variants.

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV uses a GKN 'multi-mode dedicated hybrid' transmission with some notable differences than a standard auto gearbox.

Some Lexus & Toyota hybrids and PHEVs use the eCVT transmission, which uses 2-3 electric motors inside to adjust torque rather than a belt.

The Subaru Crosstrek PHEV (internationally also called the e-boxer platform for the Forester hybrid) uses a Toyota eCVT variant that also still facilitates symmetrical AWD instead of a separate electrical motor driving the rear axle.

As I said, there are exceptions, but broadly its just slap motors on output shafts. The motor is usually designed to bolt onto an existing automatic transmission housing.

Are you using PHEV as "Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle" in the sense of "Has a long range on battery only"?

The ones I'm familiar with (which, admittedly, don't cover the ones you use) are all "parallel drivetrain" sorts of things, with a Prius-type transmission. Though I'm really only familiar with the Prius and Volt type drivetrains.

No - I'm using it in the exact same sense Consumer Reports did here and the car industry at large does - Hybrid cars that have a CCS charging port or similar and can run on electric only propulsion for some period of time. There are far more PHEV models on sale than just the Volt and Prius. If I recall correctly, the Volt isn't even sold anymore.

This is the same definition wikipedia uses too:

"A plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) is a hybrid electric vehicle whose battery pack can be recharged by plugging a charging cable into an external electric power source, in addition to internally by its on-board internal combustion engine-powered generator."

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid

"There are very few PHEVs that aren't using the same automatic gearbox as the plain-ole ICE model."

Except the most popular hybrid, the prius, which admittedly does t have a non/hybrid counterpart because it was done from the ground up to avoid unnecessary legacy technology

Toyota and US brands tend to adopt Series-Parallel hybrid system. European tend to adopt Parallel hybrid system like you listed, and Mazda/Hyundai want to be like an European. Japanese tend to adopt Series hybrid system.

Series-Parallel and Series hybrid remove transmission so possibly there's an reliability advantage. For Parallel hybrid, it's electric addon so I don't know there are reliability advantage.

> I know there's this popular "Hybrids/PHEVs are the most complicated of both worlds, so they must be the most unreliable of all worlds!" thing going around, but the data is quite clear that they're exceedingly reliable in actual use, and the "most complicated of all worlds" things tends to zoom out far enough to avoid looking at the transmission or engine design at any level of detail.

The article suggests plug-in hybrids are nearly 150% more prone to issues than regular cars though? I mean, I have one, and it seems good so far, but it contradicts your assertions.

Hmm, I don't have the numbers to compare and draw any conclusions, but aren't many (most?) Toyota hybrids using CVT transmissions? The newest Yaris doesn't have a "real" CVT (eCVT with planetary gears instead) but the old one does. Those are not used in the none hybrid Toyotas at all as far as I know. Also CVTs have huge reliability problems, at least in some cars (Honda comes to mind).

AFAIK the Prius, for example, has never had a CVT, only an "eCVT". The core of the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive system is that "eCVT".

Toyota CVTs are decently reliable, but other automakers tend to have trouble implementing them well.

Hybrid motors take a lot of stress from the ICE during load changes. This makes the ICEs potentially live much longer. A lot of taxis areound here are older hybrid Toyotas. They must have at least 400,000km mileage already.

A taxi driver in Vancouver had a 2004 Prius and drove it 1 million kilometres with only regular maintenance and no failures. Toyota bought it back from him and took it to Japan to study it.

This sounded interesting, so looked it up, some more details in https://www.vanmag.com/city/people/vancouver-taxi-driver-wor...

It looks like it wasn't the 1+M km version that they bought back, but the chap was an early adopter of Prius in that taxi role, and they bought back (exchanged?) his first one from 2001:

> For those working on the next generation Prius 2004 model, Grant’s taxi held invaluable information about wear and tear.They struck a deal: Grant sent his 2001 model back to Japan for testing and had a brand new 2003 model delivered.

Still excellent story, and good on him!

I must have read 1 million miles, which would be 1.6 million kilometres.

I thought maybe it was from mostly keeping the ICE engine in a comfortable power-rpm band, rarely making it lug at low RPM's to get the car going, rarely reving up to high RPM's, and never idling the engine, it's either running under load to charge the battery (or drive the car), or turned off.

Fwiw eCVTs are not at all like normal ones, frankly they are more simple than most other transmission types

My Toyota hybrid reliably does not start after 4 weeks not driving. The 12 volt (1 year old) battery is drained too much after such a period of inactivity. I was not expecting this from Toyota, pretty disappointing.

to the fusebox with a multimeter batman!

Unplug the USB chargers first.

Welcome to the motorcycling world! Today's cars continually start the engine - that's a huge draw. If you're going to leave your car sit more than a couple weeks then you should put your battery on a tender. Motorcyclists have been doing that for decades.

Why is that an issue for motorcycles?

Tiny batteries have less headroom against phantom drains. Also, most motorcycles aren't daily riders, so the problem is exacerbated.

Yeah, I (not really) joke that everything on the hill gets plugged in. It makes life a lot easier.

Even with no idle draw, lead acid batteries self discharge over time. Life got way easier when I just accepted it, and now I've got a pile of 6V/12V battery tenders that go into just about everything (I have no shortage of 6V vehicles out here too). That and block heaters. The tractor and truck both appreciate them.

Maybe they hired whoever designed the original Tesla Model S 12V battery management system. Or the original Tesla low-power sleep system.

Oh man, that was a train wreck!

I did some analysis of the Tesla 12V system back in 2016, and I'm amazed the batteries lasted as long as they did with how badly they abused the lead acid battery!

https://www.sevarg.net/2016/10/30/tesla-model-s-12v-battery-...

One thing I never understood is why hybrids have the 12 volt battery at all. Couldn't the entertainment system etc be powered from the 200V EV battery (after stepping it down obviously)?

Everything on the 12V system essentially is powered from the traction battery (the big one that can power the motors), once the car is turned on.

In Toyota, at least, the traction battery is completely disconnected (via a relay) when the car is off. The 12V battery is needed to power anything on the 12V system up until the car starts-- that includes the car's computer, which is what (after doing all its self-checks and whatnot) activates that relay and connects the traction battery to everything else in the car.

The traction battery isn't always connected probably mostly for safety reasons (having 400-someodd volts energized across the whole car even when it doesn't need it isn't great), but that also keeps it from getting excessively drained if something in the car malfunctions. It's pretty cheap to replace a 12V lead-acid battery if it's overdischarged after you left the lights on... the big hybrid battery, not so much.

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation.

Some EVs will monitor the 12V battery and periodically connect the traction battery to the DC-DC converter to maintain the 12V battery when the car is parked for an extended period of time. (On the older Smart EVs, this doesn’t have a limit, so the traction battery will kill itself trying to maintain a weak 12V battery. There’s a firmware patch for it.)

My Kia EV6 does that, and when the 800V battery pack is charging the 12V battery while parked, an orange light on top of the dashboard goes on.

This had me worried the first few times it happened. Then I found out it is a warning to mechanics/tow truck drivers/first responders that the high voltage system is energized.

Thats interesting; do they put the light somewhere that it isn't a nuisance to look at when you're inside the car?

The light is on top of the dashboard, right in the middle. It's intended to be very visible, especially from outside the car.

It is only on if the car is turned off and parked and the high voltage system has turned on to charge the 12V battery. When you're driving or just have turned on the car while parked, the light goes off.

So the only occasion the light might be annoying is if you're taking a nap in the car at night. And then you could just throw a towel on top of it.

Is it visible to the driver, while driving?

The light never goes on when you are driving.

You expect to have the high voltage system energized when driving, otherwise the car wouldn't go anywhere. There would be no purpose for this light to go on.

The light is specifically to indicate that the high voltage system is on when the car is parked. It's a safety warning for that situation.

Because they want to completely disconnected the big battery when not in use to prevent phantom drain, and you need a little power to run passive systems that need to be on still (like remote keys etc).

Some EVs like Tesla now use a separate lithium ion 12v battery that should last forever, instead of a lead acid 12v battery with a limited life span.

No. Or, at least, not easily. The high voltage battery isn't generally connected until "the computers are happy" with the state of things, for various hybrids/EVs/etc.

There's also a legal requirement that "marker lights and such" still work (presumably, also power locks and such) after a prime mover failure. Basically, if the engine quits, you should still be able to signal, get over, turn your 4-ways on, etc.

The easiest solution is to just put a lead acid 12V battery in the car for that. Lithium, in particular, is a problem below freezing because you can't safely charge it, whereas lead doesn't have that problem.

Because so much of the real deep-down legacy bits of the car assume a 12-volt battery.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a38537243/electric-car...

There's a lot of Tier 3 supplier…stuff…in a car that was architected for 1978 and has never had a thorough re-think, because the profit margin is like nothing.

12v is such a common top-rail voltage for electronics of all kinds, I think its a bit more that than "car makers are too greedy to manufacture 400v headlights."

Even if they don’t have a 12v battery they still have to have a 12v system for reasons others mentioned and because it’s a requirement to sell cars in the USA. My Porsche Taycan has jump start lugs for the benefit of other cars and so I can have my low voltage systems operate with some help from another car.

My mild hybrid Audi is the same way. Gas engine, 48v accessory belt run battery, and that 48v battery works in tandem with a small 12v battery for the low voltage system.

Happened to my wife's ex-Toyota CHR hybrid (not plug-in hybrid) after 5 weeks of vacation. I hooked a CTEK charger to it for 8 to 12 hours and all was good again. I didn't leave the car on the CTEK charger for five weeks because it was parked outside and not at our place.

Otherwise CTEK chargers are really nice. Certain car brands like Porsche while sell you a "Porsche charger" for two or three times the price but it's just a CTEK charger re-branded with the Porsche logo on it.

If you've got a garage with electricity, it's an option. If you don't want to let the car on the charger during 5 weeks, just connect it as soon as you come back and in a few hours the car is ready.

I have a VW bus that doesn't see a lot of use and with a bit of fiddling it was easy enough to run a (fused) connector to just behind the grill with a little rubber lid to make it waterproof. That allows me to plug in a trickle charger without having to open the hood. That little trick has saved me multiple batteries already.

I can use the cigerette lighter on my tt roadster's trickle charger. Does the bus have one?

I could have gone that route but it would require the cable to go into the interior from the outside so that's why I hardwired it to the front. It also helps that I park it with its nose to the garage so the wire is very short and I just let it dangle down when it isn't in use.

My Honda Hybrid is the same way, sometimes I go weeks between drives and if I park it for more than a couple weeks, I plug it into a 12V battery charger to keep the 12V battery topped up.

But I blame the car's smart features (that use the cell modem to allow remote start, etc) rather than it being a hybrid. I suspect that the non-hybrid model would be the same.

My 1991 Honda motorcycle does this too. I can promise you that it has no smart features. It doesn’t even have a fuel pump. Lead acid batteries just don’t have long shelf lives.

Well I get that lead acid batteries experience self discharge, my 2003 era car will go for over a month with around 20% discharge (it'll be around 12.4V), but after 2 or 3 weeks, my 2020 Honda will be at 50% discharge (around 12.0V).

I'd like to think that at some point the parasitic drain devices will shut down before they drain the battery completely, but I've never tested it beyond that point, I always plug in the charger if the car's going to be parked for more than a couple weeks. I installed a charger plug that comes out the front grill so I can plug it into the battery maintainer without even opening the hood.

Lead acid gel batteries hold their charge MUCH better than standard lead acid batteries. The difference is gel lead acid often self-discharge around 1% per month but standard lead acid batteries self-discharge on the order of 10% per month. I only use gel batteries on my small engine equipment like snowmobiles, motorcycles, and snowblower.

> I always plug in the charger if the car's going to be parked for more than a couple weeks.

To this day, since ~1980, I disconnect the +ve battery lead if the cars not going to be used for a few days or parked up in the bush waiting for when we get back from a walk.

Stops parasitic drains and Heisenbug discharges when thermal expansion during a very hot day causes a hard to track short.

My 2019 vehicle's manual explicitly says not to do this, and that if the battery fully discharges you should make a follow-up service appointment to frobnicate the computers. I miss older cars.

I have heard that sudden voltage spikes can set off airbags.

This is true of basically every car ever. Lead acid batteries can’t maintain a charge forever. Get a battery tender if you aren’t going to drive for long periods of time. If you only drive once a month do you even need to own a car? Just rent/uber when you occasionally need a car.

I hate to admit it, but Kia got this right.

I own 3 Kia’s and they all have various problems, including really big problems, but this is an area they got right. On my daily driver, the Kia Niro, it has a battery button that instantly charges the 12v from the HEV battery. I’ve only needed it once, when I left a light on camping, but it was like magic.

What big problems have you had? I’m considering a Niro phev.

Not a Niro PHEV, but they have had... a couple of serious motor issues:

- https://www.kiaenginesettlement.com

- https://www.kiaengineclasssettlement.com

Edit: A friend of mine just got a free engine swap for her... 2012-ish Optima. It threw a CEL on the highway, had the appropriate trouble code, and bam, new engine from the dealership when she told them the code.

Is it the stock battery or after-market? Even if you bought it one year ago, when was it filled with acid? Many auto parts stores sell sealed lead-acid batteries as "new" when they've been sitting on the shelf for a year and the clock starts ticking when the acid goes in. You can get higher quality AGM batteries that will last far longer, but know they are quite expensive. Alternatively, you have a parasitic battery drain going on with your car.

I had something like this happen on my non-hybrid vehicle. The battery was replaced under warranty, for free since it was less than 18 months old.

To test that you could compare the hybrid versions against their ICE counterparts. For example hybrid Corolla.

This is a great question!

I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a component. But I would be surprised if that’s a primary reason.

There’s just a lot more to go wrong with an ICE vehicle. You need oil and regular oil changes. A radiator, tubing, and antifreeze. An alternator. A carburetor and a catalytic converter. Timing belts. A exhaust system. None of this (as far as I know, IANAM) is needed for an electric vehicle.

A disproportionate amount of what’s under the hood of an ICE has to do with managing the consequences of the “C” component of that acronym (heat, combustion gases, electricity generation, lubrication, carbon deposits).

You may have misread the parent comment, which talked about HYBRID vehicles being more reliable than ICE-only vehicles. Hybrid vehicles include all of the comments of an ICE vehicle, plus they have electric batteries and motors, and may have a system of transferring power from either system to the wheels. Overall they have higher complexity than either ICE or electric-only vehicles.

They have higher complexity, but also more redundancy. Likely neither of the powertrains experiences the same rate of wear and tear as either would experience on ther own.

Apologies I did misread that.

This is not true, at least for the most popular Toyota hybrid drive train. It's probably got fewer moving parts than the ICE counterpart by virtue of dispensing with the automatic transmission. See sibling comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38466406

Check this diagram and tell me it's simpler than an engine and transmission.

https://automotorpad.com/toyota/83449-funcionamiento-sistema...

It's essentially an engine, a transmission, another transmission (power split device), a drive motor and a generator.

Most of the images there are broken, all I see are some conceptual block diagram type things. Find a teardown of the hybrid unit and compare to a teardown of any automatic, look at the actual internal complexity and moving parts. I was surprised. Here's a video of the P710: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM

Yes, but wouldn't a hybrid be a worst of both worlds? All the problems of an ICE engine AND the potential electric issues?

I don't think so. You're using two low load, low power systems combined. The least reliable ICE systems almost always correlate to the more powerful ones.

> You need oil and regular oil changes.

Slightly OT, but I recently found that here in Germany there is a service where you can go to just like to a car wash without making an appointment. They will do the oil change for you within ten minutes or so and you do not even have to get out of your car during that time. This makes oil changes so much less annoying.

This has been common in the US for at least a decade now.

Jiffy Lube had 1,000 locations in the U.S. in 1989. According to my experience in the 1990s (limited mostly to the Midwest), quick oil change shops were ubiquitous even in small towns.

I’ve never seen a shop that will let anyone stay in the vehicle while it was being worked on, even for something so simple as an oil change. Where did you find one?

In the US, this is really common. There a few big chains, like Jiffy Lube and Valvoline, but also a lot of local places. Just look for "drive thru oil change" on Google Maps

Four decades ago where I lived then. I used them here 30yr ago.

What's the name of the company?

MacOil (not a joke). They have 17 shops in Germany.

They let you stay in the car? That surprises me. Do they take the keys?

No way I would work on a car with a random member of the public behind the wheel.

This is the only way I ever do an oil change.

They sometimes ask me to remove the keys from the ignition.

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