Airbnb's Silent Killer | Hacker News Reader

Airbnb's Silent Killer

nbcnews.com

33 pointsNadeus17 comments

It always struck me as strange that AirBnB never went in the direction of providing a simple base station with a CO/CO2 detector, noise sensor, Wifi AP (for IoT locks, lights, etc). I know the whole “hardware is hard” thing but you can surely find a vendor already selling something like this that’s most of the way there and can be white labeled.

I suppose on the flip side, rental gig economics is often predicated on the fact that corporate provides as little as legally or even ethically possible.

Hardware is doubly hard when you are as international as AirBnB. Wifi has to conform to local regs with regard to channels and tx power. I wouldn't be surprised if there were varying local regs for CO detectors, too.

I mean plenty of companies do offer these things, so likely you’d just subcontract out to them. And it’s not like you need to offer everything everywhere all at once.

For starters, the place you're supposed to install your CO2 detector is not the same place where you're supposed to install a CO detector.

I have the distinct impression that there is a bizarre legal/regulatory problem with this: safety devices need to comply with local regulations, even when those regulations are inconsistent or weaken safety. For instance, in the US, a UL-listed CO detector must not alert at problematic-but-not-immediately-dangerous levels. So you end up with absurd hacks like this:

https://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety...

That’s a real name brand device that is not a CO detector because it does not meet the UL requirements.

I can easily see AirBnB not wanting to get involved.

(Also, there are properties listed in multiple services, and maybe the owners/managers don’t want to put in special gadgets for each service. And maybe people who rent their own home and live in it some of the time don’t want the AirBnB cloud intruding.)

This looks like someone with a grudge against AirBNB.

Looking in the US alone, there are about 1000 carbon-monoxide deaths per year. The article says that there have been 19 deaths in AirBNB properties in a decade, and I believe they are speaking of worldwide numbers, not just in the US. It's hard to do exact numbers, but it looks like AirBNB properties are actually quite safe.

Yep, a quick google throws up plenty of CO poisonings and deaths in hotels over the past 10-20 years, including big name chains.

Those numbers are not comparable. You'd have to convert each to a "number of nights per death" or similar.

The article says all of these happened overseas.

"All of the deaths reviewed by NBC News happened outside the U.S., where regulations regarding carbon monoxide detectors are inconsistent"

Did the hosts conform to local laws and regulations? If so then any guests would face similar issue no matter where they rent...maybe even a higher chance of CO poisoning. Seems like the local governments of Mexico etc should enforce this. After all, why should only AirBnB guests be protected?

There are ~420 deaths from CO poisoning each year in the US, and ~2 for AirBnB's worldwide. With 330 M Americans sleeping 365 days per year, that's ~4x10^-9 chance of death per night. There are ~400 M nights booked on AirBnB worldwide per year, and if there are on average 2 people per booking that's ~3x10^-9 chance of death per night.

So AirBnB's look statistically the same as normal American homes.

One could make an argument that AirBnb's are for some reason a better target for CO safety rules. But any article that describes this as an urgent safety issue yet doesn't mention they are just as safe as normal homes can't be trusted. Clear intellectual dishonesty.

How many stays does this 10 year period represent, and what is the rate of carbon monoxide deaths in the countries represented here? That is, is there any reason to believe there is an increased risk from staying at these AirBnbs, compared to staying in other homes in those countries? If not, then presumably what you want to do is call for these countries to mandate carbon monoxide detectors in homes, which would then cover AirBnb as well.

Between safety issues like this, the fact that the buildings aren't regularly inspected, that there's been numerous discoveries of hidden cameras, and the general lack of service, etc I still can't believe anyone would stay in a thing like this.

Communities should pass laws that any residency being used in this manner (for-profit rental) needs to have regular fire inspection, be up to code when it comes to sensors, have certain levels of liability insurance, and sign affidavits stating there are no cameras and punish violations with large monetary fines. If you're going to use your home as a business then it should be treated like one.

> ...I still can't believe anyone would stay in a thing like this.

What alternatives are there for large groups of say 10-20 close friends/family that are that well priced with the amenities the average AirBnb offers (kitchen, pool, living room, etc.)? Hotels are not really an option for that size if you all want to be together with private communal areas.

Yeah, I guess there are probably edge cases here. A friend of mine has a large property that would be a great destination wedding type thing. I guess I'm thinking of regular homes being used as a substitute for hotels. Not quite professionalized like a bed & breakfast or destination type place.

Yeah, I mean I personally do not like Airbnb, but I feel like the "large close friends/family" use case is the only reason to still use them. Sadly there isn't really a good alternative for that. If it's just me and my partner, I always use a hotel instead. No value in Airbnb for small parties, for many reasons like you mentioned.

Awesome, another reason to pick Airbnb over traditional hotels which are actually worse!

> From January 1, 2005 to December 31, 2018, 905 guests were poisoned in 115 identified incidents, including 22 fatalities. Children represented 16% of those poisoned and 27% of fatalities. Type of lodgings were hotels, motels, and resorts of all classes and located in a majority of states.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6744520/#:~:tex....

Without a person-nights denominator, 22 US CO deaths/14 years is impossible to compare to 19 global CO deaths/10 years. Of course, Airbnb's 0 US CO deaths/(10 years * X person-nights) is less than 22 deaths/(14 years * Y person-nights) for any values of X and Y > 0, but if the ratio was less than 1X:100Y, say, the 0 wouldn't be precise enough to get to a comparison.

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