Microsoft Will Eventually Start Charging You for Windows 10 Security Updates | Hacker News Reader

Microsoft Will Eventually Start Charging You for Windows 10 Security Updates

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51 pointsrntn89 comments

When W10 finally stops getting updates, I'm almost certainly going to have to jump back to Linux on my gaming PC.

Nothing on this Earth could make me use Windows 11. I highly doubt Windows 12 will be any better.

What are your major issues with W11? I just started using it for the first time recently because my work laptop came with it, and it is surprisingly smooth. There are some UI changes Im not a fan of, but its otherwise fast/snappy in a way Linux sometimes isnt for me.

My major issue is the CPU I bought when I bought windows 10 is not (officially) supported by windows 11, despite being the current generation when I'd bought it ...

My showstopper issue is that I cannot drag files onto the taskbar to open in other programs or copy/move them.

More details in my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38546849

Every time there is a new Windows people say this and also mention how the previous version was so much better. It reminds me of the US election cycle where people say they're gonna move to Canada if person A wins.

Earlier this year I switched to Windows 11 then installed ExplorerPatcher, now its just like Windows 10 and I no longer care that is its Windows 11.

WinXP and 7 were the peak. I tolerated 10, but as of this year I no longer own a windows machine and do not plan on ever owning one again.

The Service Packs degraded the XP-rience, IMO. I preferred 98SE or 2000 in a lot of ways. Happily loving Linux.

Because it strips out features, adds garbage in its place, and increasingly aggressively acts against powerusers. 10 and beyond are "good" as long as you don't go out of the tiny box of intended use.

I have never, ever seen another OS so intent on resetting my settings and reverting what I've installed. I even had a case where Windows Defender was removing cracked software even after being disabled.

> Because it strips out features, adds garbage in its place, and increasingly aggressively acts against powerusers. 10 and beyond are "good" as long as you don't go out of the tiny box of intended use.

What poweruser things are you trying to do that Windows 11 prevents?

So I had similar concerns regarding Windows 11, but I sat down, learned how to clean it up, and put a Creative Commons open source guide for others to follow. I knew many other reluctant friends who are senior devs at prolific companies in the tech space, and with my guide they seem to have no real remaining complaints.

It covers both the initial installation, as well as all my post-install recommendations. It eliminates I believe all the tracking, adware, suggestions, Cortana, feeding the Bing/ChatGPT machine, telemetry, etc. Absolutely nothing breaks. No need for a Microsoft account. It should be straightforward and to-the-click/keystroke.

https://github.com/GoofGarage/Win11Clean

If there’s any bugbears, create an issue. I’ll be responding to them every few weeks, and I try to update the release every 3 months.

Do you have a fix for the taskbar?

Fixing what? There are multiple sections in the guide addressing the task bar and start menu depending on what you’re looking to address.

You cannot drag files onto it to open in other programs or copy/move them, last I checked. This is a showstopper for my workflow. I just want to drag a file over my explorer icon, choose the window from the popup preview that I want to move it to, have the window get focus, and drop it in the window to move it. Or drag a file over a program icon, have the program get focus, and drop the file on it to open it. Apparently, that is too difficult to port from every previous version of Windows into v11. It sucks.

Does the preview not open up? I run Windows 11 but I'm so old school that I don't group taskbar buttons and you drag a file to the taskbar it will bring the app into focus and I drop it on that app.

But I noticed that I don't get the preview when dragging over the button but that might also have something to do with my particular setup.

I just made a very cursory look into this, but this is possibly that a Group Policy default that has changed to a different setting in Windows 11 than it had been in previous versions of Windows.

It absolutely does work if you disable UAC via Group Policy, but disabling UAC in my opinion is much a step too far as that loosens security in too many areas and would greatly increase Windows 11's attack surface.

I'll open an issue to investigate trying to identify the Group Policy setting to change to specifically re-enable this behavior without disabling UAC. Be advised that it'll be a few weeks as I'll be waiting until the January patch to drop (should be January 9th, 2024) for me to test prior to the January 2024 update to the guide.

> I'll open an issue to investigate

Wow, that's awesome. Thanks! (I love HN)

Is there a fix for the insidious problem of updates changing your settings to less secure/privacy conscious ones or is that a constant fight we just have to fight if you're on windows?

Yes. There are suggestions in the guide regarding handling auto updates.

Thanks! I skimmed through but didn't see anything, appreciate the answer!

I've bookmarked your guide, and will use it when I setup a W11 machine in 2025. I haven't used 11 yet, but I understand the taskbar is no longer full length and is now more like the mac dock.

Is there a fix for that other than installing something like OpenShell?

It’s not that it’s not full length, it’s that it’s center aligned by default. It’s a very quick change to left-align it again, and that’s in the guide.

Got it, thanks.

I had more problems with it being quite wide and not being able to move to top of screen

That may be fixed with https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher which restores win10 bar, there's no builtin solution to any of the above afaik

Labels, combining, alignment and displayed system icons (search, etc) may be configured in settings

Honestly I don't even use the win10 bar because it wouldn't let me ungroup applications even if the setting to do so was checked.

I have two monitors, and might want some distances of the same application to be on separate taskbars with two monitors, and it just wouldn't respect that at all.

I use OpenShell currently, but I really shouldn't have to.

This is gods work. But it also convinced me to not install windows 11. In particular the post install notes is such a massive amount of labor to get what I get out of the box with other OS. I’m now 100% convinced to not upgrade, and hold hope that Linux gaming as driven by valve matures into something usable by the time win10 becomes non-viable.

Regardless awesome guide thank you.

I don’t disagree. In terms of wall clock time, I do run through my entire guide prior to every release and it’s about one total hour including the installation of the OS itself, and I’d say 40 minutes or so is part 3, which is the bulk of the guide.

I don’t disagree that it shouldn’t be necessary, though thankfully it’s a one time cost.

Linux gaming works fine. I’ve not used windows for 3 years now.

At this point I would pay handsomely for an alternative to windows that isn't linux or macos.

I need windows sans microsoft.

Not a command line with partial graphical wrappers and not an OS exclusive to an overpriced line of propriety computers.

Windows but open source. Please.

Note:I have been on ubuntu for the past year, and hate it. Just like I hated whatever other distros the last 3 times I tried to switch in my life.

What about ReactOS?

ReactOS barely works...and last I knew it was at XP-level support for applications.

which version of ReactOS have you tried?

What do you expect this would look like? That's a billion dollar project if you consider the scale of the people involved in making it happen. And it would likely be better of spent on improving Linux desktop UX, which many nontechnical people already don't have serious objections to.

The core problem with linux is that it is built and maintained by people who love linux. It has lead to an OS that is great for grandmas and great for the linux tech nerd grandson who set it up for her.

But its an exercise in masochistic self flagellation to be a tech nerd with no interest in linux (learning OS structure and CLI syntax) to use it on a daily basis. Linux is extremely powerful via the command line. But I have no interest in learning/memorizing commands.

> Linux is extremely powerful via the command line. But I have no interest in learning/memorizing commands.

It's entirely possible to install and use Linux without touching the command line, just like with Windows. The days where command-line skills were required passed a long while back.

Hence why I added the line "great for grandmas".

> But I have no interest in learning/memorizing commands.

Of course they're UX issues that could be improved, especially with Canonical trying to push Snap on people, but I'm more inclined to believe many peoples' exasperation with the Linux desktop experience is really due to long-standing familiarity with Windows. The things you "have to learn" as an enthusiast coming from the Windows ecosystem are things that by its conventions are done through graphical interfaces. Which doesn't make them easier, you've just already memorized them.

Yes, correct, exactly.

So I need someone to make an OS with the longstanding windows user in mind. Using a GUI absolutely is easier. I need drop down lists and check boxes. Mouse hover tips and visual menus. Not some cryptographic string of command line arguments that I am futilely copy+pasting from some random web page.

It's easier to you because you're already familiar with it. But as someone that hasn't regularly used Windows in many years, I find performing administrative tasks and any kind of troubleshooting via Windows's opaque graphical interfaces to be a very manual and nail-pulling experience.

Additionally, graphical interfaces have a lot of downsides, as Microsoft themselves has discovered as evidenced by how over the past couple years they've been promoting PowerShell as a way to automate administrative tasks on Windows themselves and allow powerusers to pass around PowerShell invocations for quick fixes in the same way users of every other OS have for decades.

Linux is closer to being a generally accessible OS than ever before, especially with Valve pushing it as a 1st class platform for gaming.

A desktop environment like KDE is a fully modern, integrated desktop even down to being able to use KDE Connect to use your smart phone from your desktop.

You mentioned hating Ubuntu and 3 other distros, but really the fundamental differences between distros is mostly how they package software, and how frequently they downstream new software. Install something like Pop_OS, never touch a terminal and move on.

> But its an exercise in masochistic self flagellation to be a tech nerd with no interest in linux (learning OS structure and CLI syntax)

Somewhat true. But ... it's also true for Windows. Did you see the post above? https://github.com/GoofGarage/Win11Clean. It's a very long list of instructions just to get the think installed in a way that keeps most of Microsoft's fingers out of your pockets and while keeping the familiar Windows interface. But if you follow it you will have a non-standard install, and later some overnight upgrade will break it.

> I have been on ubuntu for the past year, and hate it.

Just FYI, I use Linux exclusively on my own machines and I hate Ubuntu as well.

I suppose you want ReactOS https://reactos.org/

If Microsoft sold a Windows No-Bullsh*t Edition it would sell like hotcakes. The core OS is as solid as ever (it literally just gets better every year) but then they layer on all the "new" stuff and it's confusing, ugly, and buggy.

I'm not totally against change but there's a lot of change in Windows that just doesn't many sense.

Try a distro with KDE, especially a rolling release distro like opensuse tumbleweed. KDE will feel a lot more like "good" windows.

I put together a new PC and went Windows 11 on it and I have it configured (with a few tools) to be exactly like Windows 10. I also had my Windows 10 configured to be mostly like Windows 7.

With some pretty minor changes and maybe purchasing some inexpensive software, Windows 11 is quite decent. Whenever I visit a stock Windows 11 machine I am a bit horrified.

So it is possible to turn off the advertisements in the OS and standard windows applications (that come with the OS)?

I don't know if I turned them off so much as avoid them entirely. Either way, I don't see any advertisements, links to tabloid articles, anything Bing, etc. Nothing at all. I would say it's identical to Windows 10 for me (which I also clean up a bit).

I use StartAllBack for Start menu and task bar customization.

Cool, that sounds positive. :)

I remember people saying this about XP to Vista, then 7 to 8, then 8 to 10, now 10 to 11... If you're on 10 now then you've gone through this cycle several times already; Microsoft is slow-boiling frogs and it seems to work for them.

Same as usual, they were doing this until just recently with Windows 7 updates

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-clien...

Windows 8 didn't get an ESU program though, I have to assume because it didn't get the adoption of 7 and people mostly moved on to 10.

The difference is that the Windows 10 updates will be available as a subscription for regular consumers rather than being purely for enterprise customers. AFAIK this is a first for Microsoft.

That's not what security updates are. They are fixes for errors in the original software. They are product recalls for dangerous product faults. You can't charge the customer because the product you shipped them was faulty.

Despite the legal system depending almost exclusively on analogies like this when it comes to tech, I feel that I have read very few legal opinions that make them.

Warranties don't last forever.

If you find a manufacturer defect in a five year old item that has a two year warranty they don't have to fix it. It doesn't matter if it was their fault they don't need to maintain it forever.

Dropping support for old versions is standard. As long as the window of support is sufficiently long it is a fine decision overall.

The question is can Microsoft extend that support for a cost?

Note they did provide a decade of updates.

> The question is can Microsoft extend that support for a cost?

I think it is reasonable to do this. The alternative is making all users pay for the extended support that only a minority need. I think after a decade it is completely fair that the users who value longer support can pay for it.

Network hardware vendors have been doing it for years, more money for Microsoft I guess.

Isn't that only Cisco?

HPE Networking (and Procurve before it) at least used to provide firmware updates to their switches without cost.

Hopefully that's not changed in recent years (no idea).

Juniper is another one that definitely charges/requires contract for updates. Can't remember who else off the top of my head.

If software was subject to the same product liability laws as physical products could open source software even exist?

Most likely, but the current proprietary software probably wouldn't.

Part of the whole "product liability" thing is WHAT IS PROMISED, either in contract or implied.

Most open source clearly disclaims as much as possible, and also doesn't have a clear "party" making claims.

Proprietary, like Microsoft, makes a ton of claims about safety and privacy and doesn't deliver.

Providing infinite support for all software would greatly increase the cost. I don't think that is actually what users want. I think the way that Microsoft is managing this is actually a pretty fair system.

1. Included with the base purchase price you get a predefined period of support.

2. You can pay more to get longer support.

This way users that value longer product lifetime are the ones paying the cost, not the ones who are happy to update to the new version every few years.

Whether or not the specific prices are fair is a different (and much more complex issue). But I think the model makes sense.

Even by that analogy, product recalls laws often have limited duration. In the US car manufacturers are allowed to charge for recalls if the vehicle is more than 15 years old[1]. Consumer computers have a shorter average lifespan than vehicles, and generally aren't a life safety concern. Microsoft will be providing free updates for 4 years after Windows 10 was replaced by Windows 11, and free upgrades to Windows 11 if hardware supports it. There are arguments about whether that is an acceptable duration, but the idea of a limited duration in general is perfectly reasonable.

[1] Page 13 in https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/mvdefe...

> Note that the Windows 10 IoT Enterprise Long-Term Servicing Channel (LTSC) and Windows 10 IoT Enterprise will continue to receive updates based on their specific lifecycles.

This does not affect LTSC users. Updates continue at least until 2027 for mainstream support.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/rel...

"Plan for Windows 10 EOS with Windows 11, Windows 365, and ESU" https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-it-pro-blog/p...

Cost to consumer, incentivizes companies to adopt new technology and avoid relying on specific OS versions. Seems like a good policy.

Or force you (the consumer) to upgrade to newer versions with hostile terms of service and/or applications. It works both ways.

This is a really negative take. They could also add hostile terms of service at other times or do hostile things. It's about cost and marketing.

Windows N+1 will share a majority of code with Windows N. Microsoft would now have to maintain two copies of the code N and N+1. This is added cost.

Alternatively Windows could do continuous releases, but this is less fun to market, and users might not like big changes happening many times a year instead of all at once, etc. There are also compatibility challenges for this since behaviors are tagged to such specific versions.

It's amazing how nobody complains about this with any other operating system -- at least since Leopard/Snow Leopard (IIRC - that was the one that had major compatibility EOL).

The problem isn't the EOL. The problem is that the newer versions of Windows are user-hostile and the alternatives are being retired.

I was able to disable the annoying programs pretty easily and don't know of any licensing changes.

Or is this hypothetical?

Another way to incentivize companies to stop relying on specific OS versions is to stop making every successive version ever more user-hostile and jammed with adware, spyware, and dark patterns.

Can you name adware, spyware or dark patterns that are present in win11 that weren't present in win10?

Windows 11 tries to trick you into thinking your files aren't backed up if you don't back them up into OneDrive via a flashing button right in Windows Explorer. You'll quickly run out of space and have to pay to increase it. And running out of space will shut down your Hotmail/Outlook email account connected to your install.

Windows 10 and 11 both try to trick you into switching from a local login to a cloud login. And in that process trick you into putting your Documents, Desktop, etc into the OneDrive cloud. As you run out of space, your connected Hotmail/Outlook account will shut down until you pay them to increase the space.

My Dad's 80+ year old neighbor had this happen to her. She couldn't figure out why she wasn't able to email pictures back and forth with her daughter. And she was already paying for Carbonite cloud backup. It took me an hour to get it all sorted out.

Despite all the EOS dates and warnings, you can still get "free" monthly security updates for Windows 7 directly from Windows Update [1]. Windows 10 IoT LTSC support ends in 2032 [2]. If the trend continues, as long as you are OK with some morally dubious practices, you can get security updates for your installation for at least 10 years.

[1] https://catalog.s.download.windowsupdate.com/d/msdownload/up...

[2] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows...

What’s morally dubious about this?

For Windows 7 you have to manually force-install an update (from Microsoft) which unlocks further ESU updates. One can view this either as modifying software for ensuring interoperability (which is allowed in most of EU) or as bypassing DRM (which gets you a jail time under DMCA).

For Windows 10 you have to obtain Enterprise LTSC license. Those come only via volume-deals and are not officially available for us mere mortals. On the other hand, in EU reselling licenses is explicitly allowed (no matter what EULA tells you) and there are tons of dirt-cheap second-hand LTSC licenses. Again - one can see this as either outright stealing or exercising your consumer rights.

No idea how that applies to US laws.

I have no idea why, but my PC is very modern but still won't allow W11 to install (maybe a blessing?). So this means that I'll have to leave Windows entirely once this comes to pass. What's the angle?

It's possible you may just have to enable TPM in bios. It's one of the install requirements.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/what-is-tpm-705f24...

Is it a laptop without a webcam? I remember Microsoft pushing webcams as a requirement for laptops, could have just been to make OEMs install them as a standard.

I’m going to probably delete all data and lock it down so that I can only use it for games and get YouTube and discord running on my iPad or some other device. It’s practically there already.

Since the steam deck got released, Valve has really been investing in the steam compatibility layer and you can run most of Steams library on Linux. It's all open source too so you can install proton/lutris separately if you want.

And developer's have more incentive to actually support their game on Linux (or at least running through those compatibility layers)

I don’t care because I play Destiny 2 and I have a Linux system I can use but it’s my lab computer

Windows 10 Internet of Things will reach end of support on October 14, 2025. So a little less than two years.

Perhaps by then people will have found a way to tame the beast. I think the IoT versions are the way to go.

we really need a good stable replacement for windows. I have tried multiple Linux distors and all of them lacked some stability.

i know if i tell a bad thing abt Linux ppl will get mad but the fact is that it was a total chaos my experience.

Such BS clickbait. This article should be removed from Ycomb.

Microsoft is not charging anyone for security updates unless you wish to use the operating system after end of life.

How exactly? The title appears to be a good summary of the article.

Edit response to parent edit: it's strange and worth an article. Maybe I'm just dumb, but I would assume end of life meant no more updates by any path.

Because the title makes it sounds like Microsoft will charge for any security update in the future.

These are for end of life products and it is very common for companies to require additional support contracts to keep supporting them.

You do not have to continue using said version of Windows, upgrades are now essentially free, and as long as you are on a supported version of Windows, you will continue to get free security updates.

The title says "for windows 10 updates". I don't understand how that suggests anything about other versions of windows, upgrade paths, or anything else misleading. Also, the article has all the info you replied with, and as i said - some of that is new to me. (Last time I ran windows in any serious way was a laptop that didn't have good linux support... That was when xp was the latest version. I just don't track MS very closely)

Title is clickbait. I am sure the content of the article clears it up, but the title implies Microsoft is forcing all users to pay for normal security updates.

In reality, it's your choice to stay on an end-of-support OS and purchase updates if you wish to remain secure.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com