Comment by poutine | Hacker News Reader

Comment by poutine | Hacker News Reader

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I've worked for a very long time in software, network infrastructure and now Internet payments (complex stuff too) and mobile.

I've never heard a manager or developer say: If only we had someone that could write an algorithm to solve this travelling sales person problem we'd be saved! No. Inefficient algorithms are often good enough, typical programmers muddle through and yes pick up a textbook or reference wikipedia once in a while.

Modern software is a complex tangle of standards, protocols, and technologies. To build a typical example modern web application you're going to need to know linux administration, database administration, some server side language (ruby), a web framework in that language (ruby on rails), javascript (perhaps coffeescript), html, css (less), message queues (redis, beanstalk, etc), caches (varnish), loadbalancing proxies (haproxy), SSL termination, web application firewalls, network firewalls, providing JSON REST API's, Mobile optimization, real time communication (socket.io), third party API integration, Amazon S3 management and scaling. Etc.

All of this lifts the benchmark for what is an acceptable web app. The list goes on, and new bits keep getting added every year along with expectations.

It's bloody hard to find people that can deal with a majority of the above technologies. If you find someone that can do the full stack they're gold.

You want to be valuable? Prove that you're someone that can develop within modern software stacks and more importantly adapt as things change. Because change is coming, the music hasn't stopped and we're in for one hell of a ride.

"I've never heard a manager or developer say: If only we had someone that could write an algorithm to solve this travelling sales person problem we'd be saved! No. Inefficient algorithms are often good enough, typical programmers muddle through and yes pick up a textbook or reference wikipedia once in a while."

Exactly, or google it and find the difference between between the different sorts, or look at any one of the great visual representations of sorting strategies. I've seen otherwise very accomplished coders throw up a crappy bubble sort and move on because it just didn't matter. And it didn't. In any case, 95% of the time those sorts have already been implemented in your Hash object or database or somewhere else in your languages collections library.

I've been doing this...Good Lord nearly 15 years now -- mostly in the middle-tier and lower, so I've had plenty of opportunity -- and I can't even fill up one hand with the number of times that I had a problem that required anything beyond rudimentary algorithmic analysis, much less a deep examination of sorting efficiencies, etc. Those are solved, cut-and-paste problems, the least of your worries.

The list of technologies you give is spot on. I'd add to that: good data modeling/object design, testing/TDD (if you're into that), security issues to be aware of (XSS, SQL injection, mass assignment), classic performance killers like n+1 queries, on and on.

And yes, the change bit -- as a coder you can never assume you've learned your craft. You're always learning it. We're not blacksmiths that get better and better at one thing over the years and arrive at something like "mastery."

We're attention-deficit polymaths that have to scramble week-in, week-out just to maintain competence on the current problem, while anticipating the trends that will be turning the apple cart over a year from now. Remember in 2008 or so when RIA was the buzz-cronym and everyone was talking Silverlight, Flash and the lot? And 4 years from now who knows what the acronyms will be. We may all be laughing about how awesome we thought HTLM5 was going to be (probably not, but in this business...)

If someone gave me a sort implementation in a code review, I'd have to seriously wonder how the heck that person got hired. Libraries exist for a reason.

Sorting is a good example, though, because it is often complicated not because the algorithm is hard, but because the sorting criteria rely on heterogeneous data, sometimes coming from multiple services. Coming up with a clean code design in such cases is challenging, and that's where good developers shine.

You got that right. It's strange though that most programmers are never taught half that stuff in college. Hardcore computer science may be different but related degrees basically walk you through C++, teach you some OO design patterns and let you loose in the world. In my experience every single programmer I've ever met that relies solely on their college education for their work doesn't know half that stuff! Now I'm talking about people who "specialize" in web development here to be clear. They know some HTML, JavaScript or ASP and that's about it. The command line is mostly foreign to them and they rely on a lot of pointing and clicking to create anything rather than digging into some code and settling in with a cozy text editor.

Then there are the ones I've met who picked up some books, read the tutorials, and got their hands dirty with some code completely outside their degree which was in something totally unrelated and those are the ones who totally amaze me with their skill. Even a lot of the big web development companies around me are WYSIWYGing their way through client work!

It just totally astounds me and your comment and this article are making me ask myself (again) why is that? Is what I describe normal? I'm in Chicago and maybe outside the Valley things are different? Has anyone else seen what I described or is my experience just a fluke? If its anywhere near common I'd be a little disturbed.

> Is what I describe normal?

100%, at least in my country.

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