I Just Need a Programmer

Here is proof they aren't mentally all there, thus clearly their idea is probably also half baked:

"I mean there isn't that much to it, it's just a website with a database, I was hoping you could just throw it together as a favor."

OP gave an hourly rate.. if their friend really thinks there's nothing to it, it shouldnt be too hard to pay for 3 hours of time and be on your way to business success.

So either they don't even have enough money to pay for 3 hours of work, OR they think it's 30 hours of work and they expect you to just do that for free (wtf). We don't even need to go into the fact that really they're asking for 300 hours minimum realistically.

In business, I have four "bad words": just, only, simply, and obviously.

Used in a work context, they are nearly always used in an attempt to diminish the perceived effort of something, so I get very sketched out when anyone (even/especially other programmers) starts throwing them around.

Few years ago a neighbor in my apartment building found out I knew about computers, and he wanted me to "just build his app for him". Being polite, I tried explaining to him that I really don't know anything about app development, I just move and shift data around on servers and draw pictures on whiteboards, but I think he thought I was just being humble. Eventually after some relenting, I told him to email me with the details, and gave him my email address.

He emailed me the next day, and "all" he wanted was a website that allowed users to upload arbitrary videos of any length, and recommend fun videos that could be shared, and have a comment system.

I replied back explaining to him that that's a lot more than "just an app", requiring a fair bit of server infrastructure and storage to keep all the videos, even if my labor were free. He replied asking how much it would cost to run. He thought it was on the order of like $12 a month. I explained that closer to like $1000 a month to get started, like $200,000/month if it gets popular, not counting the ~$25,000 it would take to get a really crappy prototype built.

He stopped talking to me after this.

I've tried helping these sorts of people (when i was younger).

"it's super simple to throw together" turns into "no no you're doing it all wrong. what i'm looking for is a way to make like, microsoft word, you know how it automatically formats for you? yeah i want that on the blog comment field, and then you press the print button and it prints out the office printer"

there's a never-ending list of fairly impossible requirements; "can't you just make it work like my computer at home" for people who have no real experience in software OR business.

"We just need some software that does X", this is as reasonable as saying "we just need a building where we can do X".

People get this idea because they see companies create programs over and over. The same applies to buildings, building are created reliably over and over and over. If all that stands between you and success is a building, or some software, you're in a good place.

The difference is people have respect for the value of a building, they understand the cost, they understand the reason for those costs. People don't have the same understanding for software.

Nobody would say "I thought you could just throw a 4,000 square foot house together for me, it's nothing special, just a common house", but apparently some people will say "I thought you could just throw a website with a database together for me, it's nothing special".

Any business proposition that begins with "Hey, I hear you're a programmer!" doesn't sound like a good business proposition at all.

If you have a business, you have a business without an app

If you don’t have a business without an app, the app is the business.

I think if I got that email I would advise them to use ChatGPT. If it really is just throwing "a website with a database" together then I think ChatGPT would be sufficient to guide them through setting up a basic WordPress install and some plugins.

A famous writer told this same story. People would come up to them and say "I have your next book. It'll so be easy, I've got the outline, you just have to write it." They really believe "just write it" is a small detail.

Reminds me of that Whartonite Seeks Code Monkey blog of similar stories: https://whartoniteseekscodemonkey-blog.tumblr.com/

The "do it for exposure (because I don't value your skills enough to pay you what they are worth)" is rampant in the commercial arts. Photographers and other artists get it all the time.

"software is just fluff compared to the business"

The thing is, software pretty much is the business in many cases, or at least an essential component of it. Facebook is an advertising business, but without the websites and aps, there'd be no-one to advertise to and nowhere to do it.

Another submission with the same title (and spirit) had a good discussion here 13 years ago [0].

It's nice (?) to see that people never change.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1962008

The idea guy in this scenario doesn't even understand the basic idea that you have to provide "consideration" for the assignment of rights/copyright. If he does find a person to build his software as a favor, he's got potential issues like an unjust enrichment claim or worse if he does find a way to monetize it.

If I somehow suffer the misfortune of interacting with someone like this I often stop the conversation and tell them to visit Fiverr. A half-baked idea coming from unseasoned people is not even going to make for a good consulting client. I tell them to hire a graphic artist to mock it up before they start with a programmer.

What I will sometimes do in this situation is a free look at the requirements, throw some rough time estimates against it. Maybe even offer to try and manage it for them a bit via some cheaper Upwork developers if they don't like my rates. Of course emphasising that you generally get what you pay for in terms of quality.

That's the favour. Generally though I totally agree, i got over working for free after starting a (basically) clone of Uber for a friend who 'just needed something throwing together' when I was 19!

We all have simplistic models of things we don't understand. It's important to train yourself to push back from that default perspective in domains you're not familiar with.

Are they time travelers from the late 20th century?

This attitude was very prevalent in the 1990's. There's no excuse for being ignorant about software in 2023 though.

So much ads on that blog ....

Implicit in the conversation is the notion that you're beneath them. They're the important guys dealing with all the important money making stuff. You're just a lowly programmer who should be glad to even be remembered. Look how generous they were, they gave you the privilege to work for free on their important enterprise. Aren't you thankful?

> More manpower = more progress, right?

If managers in a company that actually pays developers can make that mistake, it's no surprise that people with less experience have even more false assumptions.

And, of course, expecting anyone to work for free gives me the suspicion that these guys haven't grown up yet.

My favorite response is to tell them I'll look at it after they have sketched what every single screen looks like, with every single button accounted for and reasoned about. They agree to it, and I have yet to see a finished proposal.

Any idiot can have an idea.

Hell, back in 1997, I wrote a list of 10 ideas I thought would make good online businesses when the technology was right.

Of those, from what I remember, I predicted Amazon, Youtube/Netflix, Facebook, Discord, Twitch, Paypal, and Reddit.

I had no part in any of them because I didn't have the knowhow, the money, the connections, or the time.

I've been approached since then when people have "ideas." I explain to them that ideas are worthless and that if they want me to work with them, I want an 80% stake that we will renegotiate in time as they prove they can sell the product. This normally shuts them up in short order.

Reading that makes me think you’re probably at least 10-15 , because when I started out working as a web developer in the early 2000s (when there was no word for unicorns, full -stack developers etc) this felt like happening on a daily basis ^^ Also you are much smarter then me back then - as you had quite a good response ready (I usually just sight finished my beer and looked for the nearest exit)… maybe that’s a side effect of people usually having learned that software development is expensive by now ^^ But some might be a bit slower then others ^^

> FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm a programmer, I have a vested interest in this not being true.

Not necessarily; if you're a rare and expensive interchangeable pluggable component, you're okay. :)

I've been struggling with this for a long time. Maybe it's also because when I talk about and try to encourage the conversation, I oversimplify the programming part. I always try to encourage others not to think of it as sorcery, even though sometimes it is. But all of this is just to give non-experts the idea that it's simple to understand broadly. Of course, I spare them the time and technical details that require deep knowledge, just to keep them afloat.

This ends up being what @OP has described.

Reminds me of that saying "be careful what you wish for". As others have pointed out in this thread, it’s ok to have ideas but it’s the implementations that ruin the world.

I don't think it indicates any change.

I think people always want the programmers to work for free to fund their business deals and ideas that aren't very well though out with little understanding of what's involved.

I think people also feel this way about most professions that the doctor can just look at your issue or the lawyer just implicitly known the answer to complicated legal questions and they have "quick questions" that they don't want to pay you a dime for.

Ah... reminds me of this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U

The proper reply to "I have an Idea for a business" is "we all have bills to pay, and we can't extend credit to any commercial project..."

You may think this sounds unreasonable or crass, but one will end up getting conned eventually if you accept sweat equity deals for commercial projects.

Also, if someone is deprecating something you value... like your area of specialization... the premise of a "good" friendship should be reconsidered.

I've experienced this from friends too. Once you say no, their understanding improves as they pick up the work themselves and then they realise that actually, no, it isn't easy or quick. Their ideas drop pretty quick after that.

People start with “simple website” and after prototype they expect to see “Facebook or google” like website.

No no no. You get what you pay for should be the motto.

I don't doubt people like the author's acquaintance exist, but I think that putting them up as "the norm" is really just setting up a straw man, and so many of the "assumptions" in this article feel like straw men. To be clear, I don't doubt some people hold those assumptions, but given all the obvious evidence to the contrary, those people can be safely ignored as having no idea what they're talking about.

For example, the largest, most profitable companies in the US are all tech companies, where software is either the primary product or an integral part of the product: Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Nvidia, Meta, and Tesla. So if you're someone who thinks "software engineers are interchangeable cogs" or "in a business, software is just the icing on the cake", then sorry, you're an idiot, because you're oblivious to the fact that the top companies won largely by having the best software. And these companies also legendarily pay mightily for the best talent - why would they do that if "writing software is easy" or "software engineers are interchangeable cogs"?

It just irks me when people take idiotic statements and then hold them up as "assumptions" in need of myth-busting. It's like when journalists find a couple outlandish Twitter comments by a few rando mouth-breathers so they can put together an article with a "Look what people are saying online!!!" headline.

I mean I would not provide labor for free and I will likely not provide labor at all for family and friends, it's too complicated, but still for friends I'd at least listen to the elevator pitch and steer them toward a reasonable outcome (which may include "you cannot do that without capital, set up a landing page on the cheap and raise some funding" or "wordpress now can be an entire e-commerce you don't even need a programmer" ) before firing off the consulting rates.

That's incredibly frustrating. I'm not a programmer or computer anything (except a perpetual Linux journeyman) but my dad was a craftsman who could make wood sing, and no one appreciated what it took.

I am forever thinking of drawings I would do to enhance (for myself) some idea or note I'm developing but I can't draw, but I would never ask someone who could to do it for me as a favor.

I had a once-in-a-lifetime dog who died, and I have an idea for a triptych of 3 scenes on him I am saving up to pay someone to paint. I would never, ever say I just need an artist.

Ideas are easy. Craft is demanding. Mastery is damn hard.