Men are hitting on my scheduling bot because it has a woman's name
askamanager.org
askamanager.org
The fun bit is that it would reply to the case using a female name, using the same kind of account as human support reps. The bot's customer satisfaction surveys were over the top effusive, including not a few people declaring that they were in love and asking us to promote "her" for being so fast, polite and effective. I don't think "she" was ever asked out on a date though!
Did the ratings change after the bot got a male name?
Unless one person has some level of authority over the other, I don't see why this should be considered inappropriate. Not taking no for an answer, or any kind of retribution for being declined, are harassment and shouldn't be tolerated -- but just asking? I think that's something any man or woman should be able to ask any man or woman.
For avoidance of doubt: Asking someone out when you know very little about them isn't smooth. It won't impress many people. But I don't see it as morally repugnant.
It is not seen as morally repugnant, it is seen as economically repugnant. If you were the server admin for a business and an old lady came in off the street asking if you would help her fix her computer, it is likely your boss would step in to put a stop to that too. The employer doesn't want to pay you to do things for other people.
If the old lady came to your house instead, nobody would give a rat's ass. Likewise, if 'Emily' were a real assistant and people were asking her out on dates using her personal email address, that'd be her problem. But when someone is paying you for your undivided attention...
If so, this is a really interesting argument that I've never come across before. I do agree that it wastes company time, but I would think in such small quantities that it had very little impact -- on par with having a 5 minute chat with your office mate about their weekend.
I still have the impression that for many people who do object to this sort of thing, their objection stems from a feeling that being asked out at work is an uncomfortable or even frightening thing, something a person should not have to be subjected to.
No. Why would I have any feelings towards what other people do? That doesn't make any sense.
The quote is written from an economic perspective. If 'Emily' were real and a random person the author had never met, there would be no concern or attempt to stand in. Allison is concerned because they would have 'Emily' on the clock. It impacts Allison directly.
The cost in the case in the bot, despite being the exact same act, is so small it is immeasurable. As such, we get a 'funny anecdote' instead.
So... Alison's objection is that it wastes company time. Right?
If so: Can you see how that was what I meant all along?
If not: I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying.
AFAICT, everything else you have said, including your latest reply, is inconsistent with that.
That is what it has to do with the discussion, that you are inconsistent and refuse to elaborate on your previous position by claiming it is other people’s position and that you “don’t care”.
Somehow that turned into my objection, which was illogical. It didn't make sense then and it makes even less sense that it keeps coming up. It has no relevance to the thread... or life in general.
If the people are not total strangers, it's different, but approaching someone that didn't volunteer to be in the situation, and can't freely respond, is absolutely inappropriate a lot of the time - I'd argue, at least.
(Obviously, a good employer should help you feel protected and safe in situations like this - but we all know that is not a choice many people get to make for themselves)
I realise that that "if" isn't helpful to someone who has to deal with a reality where it doesn't (or even just might not) hold. But the point I want to make is that a culture in which we expect by default that the customer and boss will be reasonable, and shame them if they aren't, is just as possible as a culture where we expect by default that no one should ever ask anyone out at work, and shame them if they do. I often see people express things (like the sentence I quoted in my original comment) that nudge society further in the direction of the latter, but I think the former is better for everyone. Let's nudge it that way instead.
On the other hand, you can see some posts are bait. And the guys replying take it and run. You see them because if any of your connections react to these posts, you might see them in your feed.
It's cringey. Coupled with the self-aggrandising posts, the self-help "wisdom" and other stuff, they make LinkedIn look like a Mos Eisley Cantina.
No amount of credits could convince Figrin D'an and the Modal Nodes to play LinkedIn. That band has standards.
The real comedy gold will be when the person involved asks about your assistant in real life.
I thought this was a mistake implying the bot was thanking itself as a way of signing off, but finally I realized it's probably supposed be a format like the end of a letter similar to "best wishes, topherclay".
We’ve been mixing up “morally wrong” with “come on, don’t be a dick” constantly when addressing feminist issues. The first relates to feminist issues, the latter is general advice for human beings. This is the latter: Don’t hit on people without any personal context. It’s weird, annoying, and a bit sad. Do we have to say these things out loud?
Also, please do better with your comments in the future. You didn't even follow your smarmy link to see if something appropriate was shown in the results =[
These people generally aren’t being nice to you because they reciprocate, they’re being nice because it’s their job. Asking them out while they’re working is awkward for everyone involved. Worse, it can make them feel pressured to let you down gently or give you the false impression that they’re interested if only they weren’t currently in a relationship.
Being nice to people in the workplace is part of being a professional, especially for jobs that may rely on tips.
Do you?
I'd simply never want to make somebody feel uncomfortable because I choose a time that is not appropriate for such interactions. And for me, that pretty much means that unless we are sharing personal time together outside of such a relationship, then I don't engage in such activities.
Social norms like this can and do change over time, and it's my opinion that this (specifically, that asking people out in a work environment is always or nearly always inappropriate) is one that should -- because I think there's an alternative set of norms that leaves essentially everyone better off. Specifically I think that if it was understood by everyone that a person asking another person out (in any context, including at work) is responsible for dealing with rejection like an adult and not continuing to pester the person, then (absent any power difference that might imply a quid pro quo situation), there would be no reason to forbid it. Most people would still hesitate to do it (asking someone out can result in rejection, rejection is embarrassing), but the kind of scenario described by Martinussen in https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=akoboldfrying#389248..., where an employee fears for their job if they don't pander to an entitled customer, won't occur.
Interested in your thoughts.
I never do well with these really I think because I often have both extreme, yet very conflicting positions on almost everything. But sure.
> I think that if it was understood by everyone that a person asking another person out (in any context, including at work) is responsible for dealing with rejection like an adult and not continuing to pester the person, then (absent any power difference that might imply a quid pro quo situation), there would be no reason to forbid it.
I would say in an ideal world, realistically, yes. Despite the suggestion my post my have originally given. It was probably too flippant, for which I apologise honestly.
The next time I'm in an internet argument that seems to be escalating, I hope I will remember these last couple of comments of yours, and be as willing to reconsider my own position as you have been.
>I've asked out wait staff at restaurants, bar tenders, even co-workers with some success based on little more than them being nice or attractive, this is how our species reproduces, if its "bullshit" for anyone its men getting the short end of the stick, all women have to do is ignore or deny the advance, how is that "dealing with bullshit"?
You make a good point. You have personally asked out women based off them being nice or attractive, therefore it cannot be a source of irritation. It cannot have been unpleasant if kylebenzel does it
Most men are decent, but plenty of men are aggressive, scary, or make women very uncomfortable.
If you ask someone out respectfully, of course that's fine. If you're not taking no for an answer, being hostile, or making someone feel very uncomfortable/unsafe, then you're not doing the right thing.
Yeah, sure, you're being a "gentleman" by backing down when she inevitably rejects such an inappropriate advance, but after the hundredth insta-suitor, it gets old and even stressful and anxiety inducing.
So, as a man, your options are to:
1. Ask fewer women out so that you are more respectful. This likely means you'll have less success dating.
2. Ask more women out, even in environments that might be uncomfortable, e.g. a server, co-worker, etc. They're going to have more success dating.
Again, I totally understand this sucks for women, but men don't have great options here either.
Get to know someone before asking them out. Find out what they're like. Know what you're like, and what kinds of people you're compatible with. Your 20s and in some cases even 30s are your opportunity to learn.
Just blindly asking someone out is lazy and rude.
This is what parties and other social activities are for.
Same reason 'slut shaming' is a thing, which is the same thing, just from the other point of view. The more people you can convince to not accept the advances of others means more opportunity for those who do.
Think of it the other way around: You send an email trying to quickly schedule an appointment with someone, and they reply with a time, and flirt with you. It’s weird because there’s no context for that.
It's frustrating for people who are less socially adept to learn that, in some cases, there are no hard and fast rules.
"Woman stoned to death by men" does not imply all men stone women to death.