Comment by richardfeynman | Hacker News Reader

Comment by richardfeynman | Hacker News Reader

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So confident yet so wrong.

- Israel has not carpet bombed gaza. They've used a higher portion of smart bombs than any other military in history and use F16s to guide their dumb bombs. Israel has dropped more than 25,000 bombs, and according to the high estimates fewer than 25,000 palestinians have been killed, meaning each bomb kills less than one person. Israel also establishes humanitarian corridors, drops leaflets, sends evacuation warnings, allows in aid, establishes safe zones, and much more.

- Nobody knows how many Palestinian journalists have been murdered. Gaza does not have a free press. What we do know is that many militants posing as journalists have been killed. See: https://www.camera.org/article/using-journalists-lives-as-cu...

- You're upset that Israel imprisons minors like these guys? https://www.wionews.com/world/are-hamas-resorted-to-training... Save some of your outrage for Hamas using child soldiers. Also, plenty of other countries, including the United States, imprison minors.

- I can see you've been listening to lots of Norman Finkelstein? Israel does not just wake up one day and say "let's mow the lawn" - each time they bomb gaza it's been in response to something like a suicide bomb or stabbing, which has happened for decades in Israel.

- I see you think you're familiar with the Hannibal directive. Can you link me to the text of this directive? The principles are tactical rather than strategic and followed by many other militaries, including the US.

> Israel has not carpet bombed gaza.

This is a bold claim to make considering the evidence. We have satellite photos of Gaza and many estimates are that over 60% of the housing stock in the entire Gaza strip are damaged or destroyed[1] (some estimates up to 70% [2]; the lowest I could find was 45.3% [3]). Entire neighborhoods have been leveled in all parts of the Gaza strip. At least 29,000 bombs dropped on the strip have targeted residential areas. Over 65% of the population is displaced. More than 200 heritage and archaeological sites have been destroyed in the Israeli bombardment[2].

The bombings are not uniformly distributed, so if we focus on the most destroyed areas, which is norther Gaza and Gaza city, the numbers are much worse. Looking at this map[4] published by the BBC you can see that every part of Gaza city, Jabalia and Beit Hanoun have been targeted. Between 70% and 90% of all housing stock in these areas are damaged or destroyed[5]. Khan Younis south of the evacuation line has also had most of its areas targeted in Israeli bombardment and with an estimate 50% of all housing stock damaged or destroyed[5].

Here is what wikipedia has to say about carpet bombing[6]:

> Carpet bombing, also known as saturation bombing, is a large area bombardment done in a progressive manner to inflict damage in every part of a selected area of land.

You have to be extremely selective in you consideration of reports on the evidence to deny that Gaza has been—and is currently in to process of being—carpet bombed. So selective in fact, that you would not just be wrong, but obviously wrong.

---

1: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-is...

2: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/31/israeli-bombardmen...

3: https://menafn.com/1107703299/ICJ-Should-Consider-Damaged-Ho...

4: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/89CD/production/...

5: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20415675

6: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing

Carpet bombing is what the allies did to Dresden. Carpet bombing is indiscriminate. For every bomb that israel drops there is a lawyer approving it. There is lots of damage, particularly in the north (which Israel did its best to evacuate before bombing), because Hamas had built military infrastructure virtually everywhere: under schools, UN buildings, under residential houses, hospitals, etc.

I'm not trying to say there has been little damage to Gaza. There's been lots. But that doesn't mean it's been carpet bombed. There's lots of damage because there was lots of military infrastructure.

You are arguing semantics, and I’m taking the bait. You can do the same with genocide (it is what the Ottomans did to the Armenians) or terrorism (it is what the Irish republicans did in England). But just like genocide, terrorism and apartheid the meaning has broadened outside of the initial conception and prototypical example.

In every explanation and definition of carpet bombing I find online the focus is on the destruction, not the method. Yes, historical examples of carpet bombing has used unguided bombs, and the targets have been indiscriminate. However what is important is the damage and the time period. That is, the damage has to be massive, involve every part of a large area, and it has to happen progressively (as opposed to all at once; this excludes the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima). The bombing of Gaza checks every one of this criteria.

What doesn’t matter is the bureaucratic process before a target is selected, whether the bomb is guided. If a military specifically targets over half of all residential building, many historic and cultural sites, civilian infrastructure, etc. runs this through lawyers, who approve the bombing, then uses precession guided bombs to destroy these targets, and does so over every area, than that is carpet bombing.

And just to hammer the point home. Hamas still to this day retains the ability to fire rockets over to Israel, despite this vast damage of civilian area. However Israel is picking their target, if they indeed intend on destroying military targets, than they are certainly doing a lousy job.

Of course target selection matters, as does the existence of checks and balances associated with each strike. There is lots of destruction because Hamas built its military infrastructure in and under urban environments.

Maybe this is semantics to you, but to me carpet bombing implies indiscriminate bombing, which is the opposite of what Israel has done, despite its having dropped many bombs.

The amount of residential areas being bombed seems to suggest that the bombing is indeed indiscriminate. It is hard to believe that 70-90% of all buildings in Gaza City are valid military targets.

Bombings can still be indiscriminate even when you carefully select and hit each and every target. The indiscriminateness is just moved from an imprecise bomb to a non-discriminatory target selection method.

But fine, don’t call this carpet bombing. Call it something else. The level of destruction is on the maps, and has been documented to be extremely severe. More severe than in any other bombing campaigns since World War 2. Perhaps this amount of destruction warrants a new name that accurately depicts the horrors of something worse than carpet bombings.

It's hard to believe that the earth goes around the sun!

Yes, there is lots of destruction. Yes, that's regrettable. No, that doesn't mean Israel is carpet bombing.

"the Earth goes around the sun, so this is not what you see with your own eyes" is not an argument. The declared aim is to make Gaza unlivable, the actions match it. Including just turning off water, talking about human animals. And the destruction is not "regrettable", it's a despicable atrocity.

And then there is the IDF just going into civilian buildings, villages, rigging them up and blowing them up, singing about moving into Gaza and all that. The idea that it's only about military targets does not hold a drop of water.

The declared aim is to make Gaza unlivable? Really? Israel has stated hundreds if not thousands of times that he declared aim is to (1) destroy hamas's ability to wage war; (2) return the hostages; and (3) prevent such an attack from recurring.

Yes, there have been particular government officials who've said they want to make Gaza unlivable, just as there are crazies in the US congress and senate who say things like we should nuke the middle east.

In terms of the earth going around the sun, the point I was trying to make is that at first glance it does look like the sun goes around the earth, just as at first glance it looks like Israel is trying to reduce Gaza to rubble, but after careful observation and adherence to scientific thinking we learn that the earth goes around the sun -- and that Israel is not carpet bombing gaza.

Under the Genocide convention, Israel is obliged to prohibit and prosecute such speech. US senators aren't the standard, just like Hamas is not the standard. Besides one US senators hardly being the equivalent of hundreds of public figures, from the head of state to security and education minister, to army generals and so on. They're crazies alright, but they're not fringe, they're in charge. Those who call it out get viciously attacked, such as Ofer Cassif or Israel Frey ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKyH4jCnTE )

And the rhetoric matches the actions of the IDF. It's not "just" the bombing, it's also just blowing up whole villages demolition style, before/after making selfies and TikToks making fun of it. Just turning off water, plowing up the asphalts of streets, etc. etc.

It is absolutely 100% mainstream, repeated in almost every speech by Israeli politicians at a ratio of maybe 100:1 that the war goals are what I stated versus what you concocted. I understand it's tough for you to know this since you don't speak hebrew and may not follow Israeli media, but I can assure you--assure you as someone who has followed this topic for 20 years, criticized the Israeli government for 20 years, marched with free palestine-- that you're dead wrong in your assessment.

Also, not sure how much of an expert you are in the Genocide convention, but Israel allows free speech and like the United States it does not prosecute legislators for saying wild things.

There is a massive gulf between your confidence and knowledge.

(1) Hamas retains the ability fire rockets over to Israel despite 70% of Gaza city being destroyed or damaged.

(2) The USA consistently vetoes UN resolutions which would bring back the hostages. So (3) is obviously valued higher then the lives of the hostages.

(3) Do you honestly believe this is achievable via militaristic means?

Israels stated goals—if we ignore those who say the goal is genocide—seem rather vague and/or unachievable. And in the case of (2) Israel (or rather the USA) is self sabotaging.

No, I choose to believe the officials who claim ethnic cleansing is the goal. The reality from the ground seems to support their narrative.

1. This is true, and it's unfortunate that Hamas is firing rockets from safe zones. This makes Israel's job substantially more difficult. But what you're ignoring is that Hamas's military abilities have been substantially reduced, the number of rockets being fired has dwindled, and they are being fired from fewer places. Hamas has all but been displaced from Northern Gaza and Khan Younis will fall probably by the end of the month.

2. Israel will not accept a future in which Hamas, which has vowed to repeat October 7, remains in power. So any resolution that calls for a ceasefire (meaning Israel puts down its weapons but Hamas doesn't) without a return of hostages will not pass muster.

3. Yes, I do believe it is possible to achieve with military means, and moreover I believe it's impossible to achieve without military means. And I believe it already has been achieved in Northern Gaza. I'm not saying Hamas will go away completely, just as Nazism didn't go away completely, but just as the allies crushed the Nazis, Israel can crush Hamas. I think it's unlikely for Israel to get many more hostages back, but I'm glad it's trying.

Interesting to me that you believe the officials who claim ethnic cleansing is the goal rather than the 100x more numerous officials, including the head of the IDF and Netanyahu, who say the three goals are what I stated. Also, there is no ethnic cleansing of Palestinians on the ground. The net reduction in the Palestinian population since the start of the war has been roughly 6k people if you believe Hamas's death toll claims (22k deaths, 16k births).

85% of the population of Gaza has been displaced. Officials have from the start constantly stated goals of evacuating people to live in tent cities on the Sinai peninsula. This includes lower or retired officials, leaked documents, and Netanyahu himself to foreign leaders. Make no mistake, this goal is ethnic cleansing. Just because they haven’t been successful, that doesn’t mean this isn’t their goal or that they haven’t been trying. It is my inclination to believe those official given that the reality very much matches their rhetoric.

That you invoke the historical example of the Nazis seems interesting to me. World War 2 is the most devastating war in human history. About 3% of the global population died in that war. You may think Hamas is that frightening but I think this level of destruction is not proportionate to the actual threat imposed by Hamas.

Instead I would like to invoke the historic example of the IRA. Another resistance group that did horrible acts of terrorism, causing countless civilian civilian casualties. IRA was not defeated militarily, instead the Catholic population of Northern Ireland were granted equal rights, and the system of oppression was dismantled.

Israel seem very reluctant to even consider a peaceful solution as an option. So far in the current conflict peaceful solutions has save over a 100 hostages, military options has saved a single hostage (and killed at least 3).

The point with these three goals you—and Israeli officials—claim, is that they are vague or unachievable. Genocide is hardly ever stated as a goal, instead it is hidden by a rhetoric such as these. Particularly the promise of security.

1. If Israel didn't evacuate people from the north, there would be more dead Gazans. 2. Gazans have been begging to go to Egypt; the idea is to allow them to; Egypt refuses. 3. I'm not comparing this war to WW2, I'm comparing the principle that "you can't kill terrorism because it's an ideology" to the comparable principle of "you can't kill nazism because it's an ideology." 4. Of course Hamas was an existential threat to Israel. It literally killed ~1,000 Israeli civilians in a brutal, premeditated mass slaughter, a crime against humanity. If Hamas were stronger, or if Israel were weaker, they'd have killed more. 5. There can be no peace while Hamas is in power, retains hostages, and vows to repeat their atrocities. 6. Not only are Israel's three war aims achievable, but I'd argue they are just months away from achieving the first war aim (neutering Hamas). Time will tell. 7. You started off this thread by saying Israel's stated war aim is to ethnically cleanse Gaza. When I pointed out this is wrong, you changed your argument to some Israeli officials have said that. So you're arguing your interpretation of Israel's war aims supersede the official documentary record.

> You started off this thread by saying Israel's stated war aim is to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

I started off this thread by disputing the claim you made that Gaza is not being carped bombed. To circle back to that point here is an interesting article by the Washington Post Israel has waged one of this century’s most destructive wars in Gaza[1]. Of particular interest is the comparison to the bombing campaign of Aleppo and Raqqa.

ISIS is without a doubt one of the worse terrorist organizations we have ever seen. What makes ISIS particularly bad is that—unlike Hamas, IRA, Mau Mau or the Viet Cong—they are not resisting oppression of an occupying state but for their fight—like the Nazis—are for their own fascistic ideology and dominance. Their strength and brutality was also far worse then Hamas has ever been. And yet, they were defeated in Syria with far less damage and destruction then what the IDF has already imposed (without success) in Gaza.

I want to be absolutely clear though that the people suffering both the ISIS rule and then later the bombing campaigns which successfully deposed them, were indeed horrendous.

Another point of argument here is that there was no peaceful solution to ISIS. There is one for Hamas. ISIS wasn’t resisting oppression, Hamas is—just like IRA, FLN, etc. before them.

1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20...

no space to reply. even though we disagree, i thank you for the lack of ad hominems in this discussion, and I appreciate you taking the time for dialogue. a positive step.

When someone flashes a knife and mentions $racist_slur -- or in the case of Israel, actually just arbitrarily kills people, turns off their water, blows up civilian buildings after posing for selfies, making all these sick videos playing with the children's toys of displaced or killed Palestinian families, attacks refugee camps even in the West Bank, just rips up roads, tears down shops with bulldozers, hands out weapons to utterly deranged settlers -- and then talks 5 hours about how they're a fan of African Americans or whoever they slurred, how much they like rap... you don't weigh these things against these other.

What could be weighed against it could be protest against and prosecution of the genocidal statements and actions. Nothing else, not ever.

There still are Israelis with conscience who are against this. But they're in the minority, as shown by Israelis demonstrating in front of the house of Ofer Cassir, tearing up a Palestinian flag with a scissor, grinning from ear to ear -- the first member of the Knesset they want to expel for supporting having this brought before the ICJ.

And there is the translate button. We can translate audio, too. Everybody speaks Hebrew. And whatever change in tune from here on out, while not changing the actions, will not change what Israel showed the world. Just like cutting off Internet access to Gaza will not make the world forget about Gaza.

But since we will simply not agree on this anyway, I want to ask, did you march with "Free Palestine", or with Palestinians? As in, in those 20 years, did you make Palestinian friends? If so, what are they saying?

1) Israel does not arbitrarily kill people. The ratio of dead combatants to dead civilians is roughly 1:2, which is better than the US or other Western powers achieved in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's obviously also significantly better than Russia achieved in Mariupol alone (75k dead civilians, about 5k dead combatants).

2) I repeat: The IDF, Netanyahu, and other leaders have said a zillion times that the goals are to neuter Hamas, bring back the hostages, and provide a Hamas-free future for Gaza. These goals are consistent with their actions, which include dropping leaflets, sending text messages, doing roof-knock warnings, establishing humanitarian corridors, safe zones, allowing in aid, and more.

3) Yes, I have many Palestinian friends, and while I would never march with the current #freepalestine movement, which I think is highly antisemitic, I did march with the movement for years. Most of my Palestinian friends are afraid to speak up for fear of career damage. I encourage them to speak up and tell their side! I can guarantee you I've donated more to Palestinian causes than you or almost anyone on the thread has.

4) Do you think when Israel goes into a West Bank town they just do so for fun or malice? I mean, seriously! What a weird conception of the world. They go in and risk their soldiers to get terrorists, of which there are many.

5) I encourage you to browse Israeli media and hit the translate button! Based on your limited knowledge, I would guess you're not doing this at present. If you were, you would never claim Israel's goals are to make Gaza unlivable.

6) Yes, there are bad apples in the Israeli military who destroy stores and worse, but that is illegal in Israel and those soldiers get punished and face the military justice system. The same thing happens in every war, including US wars. Remember Abu Ghraib? That was far worse.

> Israel does not arbitrarily kill people

It has: https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200203_trigge... (2002). It probably (orgs yet to verify) still does: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/... (2023)

> The IDF, Netanyahu, and other leaders

Pray tell, what are the Minister for National Security and Minister of Finance calling for?

As for everyone else, here are the receipts: https://twitter.com/KintsugiMuslim/status/174301442945995164...

> I've donated more to Palestinian causes than you or almost anyone on the thread has.

It is solidarity that is in short supply.

> They go in and risk their soldiers to get terrorists, of which there are many.

Of course. All 2m of them at some point must be killed or punished because terrorists: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/... Oh, and the violent Settlers... They are "security", too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duma_arson_attack No one mistake them for terrorists, please.

> encourage you to browse Israeli media

I mean, they've been calling for genocide since ever: When Genocide is Permissible, Times of Israel (opinion, 2014), https://archive.is/EuUdc

> The same thing happens in every war, including US wars. Remember Abu Ghraib?

One crime doesn't excuse another. Genocide has also happened, as has ethnic cleansing. Those are not the Pandora's Box the World wants to open again, and rightly so.

> I understand it's tough for you to know this since you don't speak hebrew and may not follow Israeli media, but I can assure you

One look at this "Hebrew" account and your assurances fall flat for the lies they are. https://twitter.com/ireallyhateyou

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