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Comment by wonderwonder | Hacker News Reader

My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it.

Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks.

America laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, killing at least 250k people. That was not genocide and neither is what Israel is doing.

Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide.

If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences.

Note: I am in no way downplaying how much suffering the Palestinian civilians are experiencing. Its terrible. What I am saying is Hamas committed an atrocity and left Israel with no choice but to anhiliate them.

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> My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it.

I think it is great to move these types of disputes into law rather than war. Israel should further embrace the ICC jurisdiction fully and bring Hamas to account there.

> Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks.

I am not sure you know what you are talking about. The formal definition of genocide is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition...

Directly killing people wholesale isn't the only way to do it.

South Africa's presentation to the ICJ this week has a lot of good details:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/01/11/israel-genocide-trial-i...

It is a very serious case and it isn't very clear how it will turn out. Right now it could go either way.

> Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide.

Israel is free to file a case against Saudi Arabia at the ICJ.

> If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences.

Atrocities do not justify further atrocities under international law. That isn't a thing.

Just so we are clear, lets say israel filed a case against Hamas and won. Then what? The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas.

Lets say you have a wife, and 5 kids. Terrorists break into your house and rape your wife and murder 2 of your kids.

There are 2 options presented to you.

1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die.

2. a special team of negotiators and police spend 3 months slowly working with the community to try and get them to give up the terrorists. 80% of the terrorists are caught. 5 police officers die. The rest are free. In the mean time they kill your wife and cripple one of your remaining kids.

Which one do you choose?

All the anti Israel people want Israel to pick option 2, when Israel's responsibility has to be to protect its own.

Also there really is no such thing as international law. There is only what America allows and does not allow. It may not be fair but thats reality. Those really are the facts on the ground.

> The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them?

That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals.

> Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing?

With regards to the ICC, there would be international arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and there would be incredibly pressure on a lot of countries to arrest them if they were present in their countries or transiting through them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the...

> Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas.

You do realize that Netanyahu, and other radicals in the Israeli government, has actually long purposely boosted Hamas by allowing financial transfers and has purposely hurt the Palestinian moderates? Netanyahu viewed supporting Hamas as a way to prevent a 2 state solution:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q...

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste...

https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian...

“The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset.”

So yeah, there is a clear solution here towards a 2-state solution where both Israeli and Palestinians have freedom and safety and self-determination. Providing hope is the best way to stop the growth of radical organizations.

> you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die.

Even President Biden said that Israel's bombing was indiscriminate. Almost half of the bombs dropped where dumb bombs, that is not targeted at all: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessm...

You never chose option 1 or 2 :)

"that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals" Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews.

They can press charges while Hamas continues to rape and murder and wait and then even with a conviction, the rape and murder continues or they can do what they are doing now and resolve the situation. Any long term solutions can come later.

Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?

> You never chose option 1 or 2 :)

You provided a false dichotomy, I don't have to choose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

> Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options.

I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce...

> Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews.

I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen.

> Any long term solutions can come later.

Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long.

> Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?

Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...

For you personally it is a false dichotomy, for Israel its a real choice they had to make.

Hamas has proven that they seize the vast majority of aid sent to Gaza both during the current war and historically. That is why its leaders are billionaires.

"Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defense" of course not, but that is what this war is, a war of self defense to ensure that what happened does not happen again. America is not striking the Houthis in self defense, Yemen is on the other side of the world from the US they are not a risk to America the nation at all.

Hamas is a clear threat to Israeli citizens.

Leaders can say whatever they want, they can only charge on actions. Indeed Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel and America. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, indeed far more than the US did in Iraq.

I hear what you are saying and I think your heart is in the right place but from my perspective if someone kills your citizens / family and remains an active threat, it is the governments responsibility to hunt them to the end of the earth and neutralize that threat in the most expedient manner possible.

> Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians

What civilians? President Herzog said there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, as did many other politicians. IDF soldiers are singing about how there are "no uninvolved civilians".

Just turning off water TO PUNISH CIVILIANS isn't going out of one's way to not harm them. Or just sniping people out of nowhere, including a 70 year old woman with a white flag fleeing with a child. Or just shooting youth in the West Bank, then running over the body with an army truck.

You are telling us we didn't see what we saw because you don't face it. That's a fool's errand.

> "Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated"-- Yoav Kisch, Minister of Education, 09/10/2023

> "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza" -- Isaac Herzog, President, 13/10/2023

> “There is no humanitarian crisis.” [..] “the humanitarian crisis at the moment is in Israel.” -- Tzipi Hotovely, Israeli Ambassador to the UK, 16/10/2023

3 of hundreds such statements.

> 1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die.

They are bombing refugee camps. Bulldozers are tearing up streets, just to make Gaza unlivable. Soldiers singing genocidal chants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s

Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes. Politicians are talking about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza. 80% of the people suffering catastrophic hunger in the world right now are in Gaza.

I'd rather say you and anyone has two options here: a.) denounce the genocide and call for it to end and the people responsible to be prosecuted b.) support genocide in some form or other, beating around the bush in so many words, with all sorts of neat hypothetical faces to put on the despicable genocidal underbelly that is being rubbed in our faces.

> All the anti Israel

To criticize that is as much "Anti-Israel" as the White Rose was "Anti-German". Yeshayahu Leibowitz didn't love Israel less than the people who saw no problem.

As Gideon Levy said, the friend of an alcoholic is not he who goes to the corner store to buy them alcohol, it's the one who tells them they have to stop.

"They are bombing refugee camps" Are there terrorists in these camps? Are there tunnels under these camps?

"Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes" This is war... Soldiers have dehumanized their enemies since the beginning of time. Hamas actually has women and children they are holding hostage.

What is Israel's other option? Let Hamas go to do it again? Hamas is very open even during this war in stating their goal is to destroy Israel and the US and wanting to repeat their killing of civilians.

So again, serious question. What is Israel's alternative to the invasion? How do they immediately stop Hamas and prevent them from attacking Israel again with out doing what they are doing now?

I think you will find, if you are serious that your response is "I don't know"

Both of your options are invalid as choosing either does not resolve Israel's current situation which is that they have an openly genocidal terrorist army on their border and they can either eradicate it or allow it to continue to rape, murder and torture. Lets not forget that hamas still has a hundred civilians they have kidnapped, many of them women that they are refusing to return even though they had agreed to; likely because of what has been done to them in captivity.

This is a fight for survival for both sides, its ugly but it has happened over and over through history. It will happen many more times. Its just humanity.

> "They are bombing refugee camps" Are there terrorists in these camps? Are there tunnels under these camps?

Nope and nope.

> "Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes" This is war... Soldiers have dehumanized their enemies since the beginning of time.

They're dehumanizing civilians, including children. The last time we saw something like this was Abu Ghraib, and they didn't post that proudly on social media.

> What is Israel's other option?

Than to target civilians to take over the land, and hiding that behind the fig leaf of Hamas which was always preferred over moderates? As Smotrich said recently: "In the context of de-legitimization - Hamas is an asset (for Israel) and the Palestinian Authority is a liability."

I don't have to provide an alternative to genocide, ffs. It is not a permitted response to anything.

> this is a fight for survival for both sides

Nope, it's a fight for expansion for religious zealots, and a fight to stay in office and not be on trial for corruption for Netanyahu. Israeli society doesn't gain anything from this. Once this fully trickles down and the fallout is over, it will take decades for Israel to recover from this, if ever.

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