Ask HN: What's the best car without undesirable features? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: What's the best car without undesirable features?

82 pointsMrDrMcCoy174 comments

I've been increasingly dismayed by the direction automakers have been going with vehicle design. They keep packing anti-features into their lineups that are hard to avoid. Do you know of any modern cars that don't have the following features?

1. Internet connectivity. If the car is connected, it's tracking me.

2. Remote anti-theft. If someone else can disable my car, I don't own it.

3. Subscription features. I want to own my car.

4. Touchscreens. They are a safety hazard.

There are some features I do want as well:

A: All wheel or 4wd. It snows where I live.

B: >= 30mpg or 250mi range if EV.

View on HN

Used car with front wheel drive, preferably traction control, put Blizzaks on all four wheels and you’ll do OK in snow unless you insist on driving on unplowed roads.

There are a wide range of cars I would consider. Say a Toyota Camry or a Honda Accord or a Nissan Altima. Lately I have been partial to Buicks. An old Nissan Leaf with a shot battery can still go 70 miles which makes it a great second or third car in a household.

Cars from the 1996 model year forward are basically modern because they support the OBD II diagnostic standard and also the database for parts was rationalized around then. My son has a 1996 Buick and there is no problem getting parts, we considered up to about 2010 when we were looking.

See the thread about his car here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39035535

Recent used cars are crazy expensive now so it not so daunting to expect some repairs on an older car, be creative looking for one that fits your needs.

My son has a 1996 Buick and there is no problem getting parts

Hopefully the airbag in the steering wheel is not integrated with the horn in a vinyl housing.

The vinyl shrinks with age, and eventually to the point where there is sufficient pressure to continuously honk the horn.

When that happened to the 1997 Le Sabre I bought for my kid, the options were disconnecting the horn or replacing the airbag. The replacement options were NOS at around $1600 and around $800 for salvage.

Parts online not including labor, the colors were the last ones anyone would choose (non matching of course) and there was no guarantee the vinyl hadn’t shrunk to a similar point.

Eventually we bought him a Tacoma. I thought I gamed the system. I didnt.

Hopefully your mileage will vary.

That's a weird issue I hadn't heard of before.

Wouldn't a simpler and cheaper solution be to run an extra circuit to the horn? You'd then honk it by pressing a new button (or use an unused one) in the dashboard.

The difficulty mainly depends on how hard it is to get a pair of wires from the horn across the firewall into the dashboard. On some cars this would take no more than an hour in total.

After I got the horn disconnected so the neighbors would stop hearing it and so the car could be driven…that’s the theory this dad had, too.

The thinking about it reality was horn current is switched through relays, there aren’t obvious places to mount the new in-cabin portion of the horn, there aren’t well considered off the shelf options for the horn triggering system, and the horn is a critical safety system.

And I didn't have a garage; never wrenched as a vocation nor much as a hobby; and my most motörhead friend lived in another state.

Keep in mind the center of the steering wheel is designed to explode in an accident so hard objects attached to it will missile around the cabin if the airbag triggers.

The dash was a lot of curved soft surfaces covering ducts and wires were it wasn’t instruments and controls.

Cars ain’t what they used to be.

I looked up the interior of a 1997 LaSabre, there's plenty of places to add a new button.

I don't think (but I may be wrong) that US law stipulates that the horn must be operated via the steering wheel, and modifying it is trickier for the reasons you mention.

You could have a custom horn via a pull chain, see e.g. [1].

Anyway, this was clearly ages ago. I only chimed in to note that there's often non-OEM fixes for car troubles that are much cheaper, and will pass inspections.

If all you need is a functional horn you can get a working one at a junkyard. Then all you need is to mount it somewhere, a 12V power supply, and a switch.

Even if you can't do any of this yourself paying a mechanic to do it would be a small fraction of the $1600 you noted, which presumably was a full steering wheel replacement (airbag and all).

1. https://www.lalightbars.co.uk/hadley-air-horn-pull-chain-kit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1sM29zGxeo

> Used car with front wheel drive, preferably traction control, put Blizzaks on all four wheels and you’ll do OK in snow unless you insist on driving on unplowed roads.

There's more to cars in snowy climate than driving. OP clearly wants AWD, why tell him he doesn't really want it? As someone who's lived North most of their life, AWD is clearly a big advantage both for driving and for getting unstuck.

Have you never been snowed in by a snow plow and have to spend an hour trying to get out of a snow bank because your stupid front wheels won't grip? And then they finally grip but you drive a bit too far and you get over another snow bank and the front wheels are now lifted, losing all chances of getting out without spending another hour digging?

So in the end you arrive to work 2 hours late and with wet clothes from all the sweat and snow that got in while you fell repeatedly pushing your car?

During the part of my life when I lived in an intensely snowy climate, I never had a vehicle with four-wheel drive, and never had any issues. Four-wheel drive is a crutch to get you into situations your brakes can't get you out of.

Yup, same here. I delivered pizzas in northern Ontario for 3 years while in school. During snowstorms it seemed quite a few people would decide to stay home ... and order a pizza. I carried about a dozen+ bricks with me that I would jam under the wheels of my front wheel drive whenever I got stuck, often several times per storm. Fun times fondly remembered.

I used to crash my FWD Sienna into snowdrifts next to stuck vehicles, dig them free, then wobble my way out. Fond memories indeed!

That being said, I would not trade my AWD Mazda 3. I've had to rock it once so far this season the morning after I plunged it into an unplowed slot during the last lake effect storm.

AWD isn't a necessity, but it sure feels like a cheat-code. No bricks, no kitty litter. I haven't had to exit my vehicle in the last years I've been driving it around upstate NY.

I'm glad snow tires and traction control have gotten so much better.

I’ve had all kinds of problems in the snow but I’m a New Yorker so I cope. I dig other people out more often than get stuck myself.

The AWD vehicle has a more complex drivetrain, will be more expensive to maintain and probably get worse gas mileage. Friends of mine swear by Subaru but I think they are crazy. If I wanted AWD I think I’d look for a small SUV like a Ford Escape.

I'm from WNY, I was forged in the snow. Nearly every problem people have driving in snow is a skill issue, the rest is hills.

Subaru does do a very good job with the symmetrical AWD, letting you feel overconfident and forget that you have awful braking traction.

I really would highly recommend Infiniti's AWD options.

I took my G37x to just shy of 300,000 miles with no major issues, and it wouldn’t get stuck until the snow was above its bumpers.

That's like the Buick strategy.

I don't think I'd ever get one of the premium brand cars new (e.g. Acura, Lexus, Mercury, etc.) but the premium you pay for a premium brand is a lot less in a used car than a new car. Also an older premium car is going to more technically up to date than an older entry level car.

I’ve never bought a car new.

I usually buy 2 ish maybe 3 years old, with <30,000 miles but I’ll probably go a little higher the next time I purchase.

When I bought the Infiniti though, my desired specs were based on price (I paid $18k when I bought my 2013 Infiniti g37x in 2015).

Having awd, and above 300hp. My unexpected expenses have been wheel bearing replacements. But aside from that nothing major.

My next car purchase is a convertible probably a bmw m6, or a Mercedes amg 63 s.

I can’t get over knowing however that both of those are bad choices in cars to buy.

So instead I’ll probably buy something with less hp, awd, convertible, and higher reliability/cost to own. If it exists.

Subarus have head gasket problems and in the community of Subaru owners it's just a given that you're going to replace gaskets pretty often.

I drove a 2wd pickup for years in a mountain town and I did ok. But now I have 4wd and it's great. It's not necessarily a crutch, but it can become one if one isn't smart about how they drive.

Grew up in New England, on what passes for a major highway in those parts (i.e. still a 2-lane road with stop signs and unprotected turns, but a numbered route so it would get plowed regularly). We'd get plowed in 2-3 times per year. The way we dealt with it was that I'd wake up early with my dad and break out the snowblower and shovels, and we'd shovel the car & driveway before taking the car out. Driving straight over a snowbank strikes me as an exceptionally bad idea for multiple reasons, the most mild of them being having to push for an hour to get unstuck. The least mild would be successfully driving over the snowbank, then skidding out as you hit black ice on the other side, spinning into opposing traffic that didn't see you coming and also can't stop in time, getting hit, and dying.

The sibling comment that says "Four-wheel drive is a crutch to get you into situations your brakes can't get you out of" is right. It always seemed like the stuck & crashed vehicles on the side of the roads were 4WD and AWD - because their owners had a sense of invincibility that they felt exempted them from the need to take extra time and drive slowly and carefully in the snow.

It snows heavily but infrequently here. I love 4wd for when I have to get somewhere on unplowed roads. I'm a very cautious driver. It's also nice for to / from the ski lifts in sketchy weather.

No I haven’t but it sounds like you should carry kitty litter in your car.

> An old Nissan Leaf with a shot battery can still go 70 miles

My 2012 LEAF could only drive 35 city miles to a charge in winter when I sold it at 6 years old.

Nobody has ever said they’d consider a Nissan Altima unless they had no other options.

I'm in a similar boat. You might be look at a ~2020 Mazda 3. This was after Mazda announced they were moving away from touchscreens [0] but before internet connected remote start came standard [1]. Cars produced since 2018 are required to have a backup camera and therefor will have a screen of some kind.

The AWD hatchback claims 24/32 MPG and these reviewers got 41 MPG from it [2]. Get the base model to avoid the Carplay / touchscreen.

[0] https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/mazda-getting-rid-...

[1] https://www.copilotsearch.com/posts/mazda-remote-start/

[2] https://www.caranddriver.com/mazda/mazda-3-2020

Mazda 3 is my first and current car since 2013.

Amazing vehicle. Just do basic maintenance (and sometimes not even that) and it continues to work with no issues.

I'll have to upgrade to something bigger, suitable for a family of 4 + occasional grandparent visits, but I love love my Mazda.

I would probably go with one of the following: - Kia telluride (AWD) or carnival (sadly only fwd) - Genesis gv80 - Porsche cayenne

wife gets to choose, and I think she will go with Porsche.

All Mazdas of that era can operate the IVI through the jog dial on the center console, the touchscreen only works when parked anyway. Taking the captouch away wasn't a huge loss. The dial is more convenient. CarPlay also works with the dial.

These cars also have manual controls (or semi electronic) for HVAC.

My 2015 Chevy Colorado has a backup camera, but the screen is not a touch screen. Base model (with optional heated seats) FTW :)

> 1. Internet connectivity. If the car is connected, it's tracking me.

Just because you can't connect to the Internet from your car doesn't mean that the car is not being tracked. Pretty much all cars built since 2016 or so have built-in infrastructure to collect various telemetry and send it to the manufacturer; prior to that there were dongles that were installed by various parties (automotive clubs, insurance companies, fleet owners...).

Most manufacturers also offer (or are working on offering) that data to third parties, although in most jurisdictions it requires the vehicle driver/owner to explicitly agree to it. In any case this whole area is still in its infancy, and we can expect to see more standardisation and wide use of that data in the coming years.

Source: worked in that industry until recently.

Bingo: pre-2016 cars.

Get a pre-Internet, pre-subscription Subaru; Foresters and Outbacks are both known to last 300K miles. Great in snow. Great resale too, far better than an EV.

One note on Subaru, you might be putting a quart of oil in every 1,000 miles after 100,000 miles. Certain models burn ungodly amounts of oil.

I don’t drive Subarus now due to the above, I switched to Toyota.

The 2014 models are the last year Subaru had oil leakage issues. Looks like the 2015-'16 models are the sweet spot, as '17 is when they went with the rest of the industry and added Internet, app capability and all that nonsense.

Ah, that makes sense. The Foresters I owned were 2002 and 2010. Everything else about those cars was great, glad they got the oil burning issue fixed.

Thanks for clarifying!

If you’re going to do that, you might as well limit yourself to the 3.6R - it includes the “heavy duty” version of the transmission.

The internet stuff doesn’t work anymore on those afaik. It’s based on 3G cellular which doesn’t exist anymore.

I know about collecting data, but sending? how?

There is essentially a mobile "modem" built in.

Idea: buy a car with an outdated (3G) modem and simply don't replace it.

I don't think that really exists -- the cars either don't have the connectivity, or it's relatively modern (4G+). For the older cars we had to use dongles, which in some cases were even 2G.

Are you sure? I believe there was a big recall for at least one model of car during COVID due to the chip shortage + impending 3G shutdown.

I'm not sure, hence the "I think". :)

Well I an tell you right now you don't need 4wd, it snows like a MF where I live and if you have FWD with proper snow tires (which you should regardless), you will drive circles around 4WD/AWD cars with just all season tires on in winter.

Just buy a mid-2010's honda civic or a toyota camry.

I've driven in blizzards with FWD and snow tires successfully many times. However, after having driven AWD for many years now, I greatly prefer the traction it provides and I'd rather not downgrade.

Snow tires help you decelerate, and provide a bit of extra traction to accelerate from a dead stop.

4wd will get you moving from a dead stop as long as you aren't bottomed out. I've gotten several cars un-stuck with both a pickup truck and a UTV in 4wd, neither of which were bothered by the snow that had left the cars marooned.

AWD is better than FWD with snow tires if and only if it also has snow tires.

For moving from a dead stop, why is 4WD better than AWD (assuming equal tires)? Does it have to do with the locking differential, or something else...?

My understanding is that AWD systems generally allocate power to a wheel under certain conditions where it's detected that traction is lost. 4WD sends power to all wheels all the time, except perhaps when traction is lost to one wheel and there is no locking differential. I imagine 4WD feels more powerful at getting unstuck because all the power is there right away and you're not depending on a system / sensor to recognize the need for more traction before it's delivered.

The main disadvantage of FWD is that sometimes you'll be legally required to put chains on in circumstances where the AWD/4WD is exempt.

I can't speak to snow tires, but statistics clearly show 4WD/AWD significantly reduces fatality rates for a given car model.

Confounders ruled out?

Honestly I did fine with FWD and no snow tires on my 97 Ford escort in college in the snow belt (200+ inches of snow a year). People love to waste money on AWD/4WD.

Not having snow tires is illegal and dangerous in Norway.

Good for Norway I guess? Like I said, it was never an issue, and I drove on roads that were consistently snow covered. Just drive slower. I used to pass a lot of vehicles stuck in snow banks off the highway after they had passed me at high speed, cars, trucks, SUVs, didn't matter. The primary risk factor in snow driving is speed.

Yes, Norway has good road safety numbers despite the weather.

Not having enough grip is an issue. Summer tires become useless when the road is very cold, or snowy, or icy. It’s physics and while driving slow helps, it’s still unsafe.

It’s not uncommon to see cars with summer tires struggling to climb the tiniest uphill roads with the first ice in October because some people forget that it gets cold every year. Good for you that you never got stuck or crashed, but it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

Also depends on how flat the terrain is

You can get a 2023 or older wrangler, and replace the radio with anything else. Without the factory radio there's no internet connection. The 7" and 5" radios don't even have the modem to begin with (although apparently some 7" come with a 'telematics module' to give them internet). You can swap them out for any double din radio that fits (There's a kit or two) but the dashboard doesn't offer much space so it'd have to be a radio without a cd player.

Don’t buy a Jeep wrangler

Or any Chrysler, Dodge, or Ram product. Or whatever their parent company is. Inferior parts that fail more rapidly than other car brands. Especially as the vehicle ages. They might be fun to lease though where everything is covered under warranty but that is usually not a good financial decision.

Thanks!

Third or fourth gen Subaru Outback. I owned a fourth gen six cylinder and was happy with overall power and comfort. Had the most basic LED stereo. Nothing connected to the web. There are a ton of aftermarket mods out there and you can pick up good deals in PNW on Craigslist.

I own a 2023 Outback and love it!

Basically, just buy a car from 2008-2012 in good condition with low miles.

This tracks my experience.

My 2008 mini had an iPod adapter. The Bluetooth feature only supported BT calling. No GPS or touchscreens, plenty of knobs and physical switches.

My 2012 Ford had Sync 2 which added Bluetooth audio for music, but otherwise only had a three line LCD for status

The only modern feature I would really miss is adaptive cruise control, otherwise this is my sweet spot for auto tech

2008- is important because it's when average cars started installing ESP/ESC/VSC that helps winter driving much.

My 2018 Honda Fit meets all these features. and it has Apple Car and rear view cameras.

Something to be mindful of about connected cars.. they are monitoring you while in offline mode and will upload all of their contents when connected to the dealership system. This system is used by dealers for all service requests and independent repair shops for specific service requests.

do you have more information about this?

Ford sync stores “breadcrumbs” of your cars telemetry data in the APIM module. This data is downloaded when connected to the ford IDS system. Ford then aggregates your data with your customer information.

You can find this information in fords service documentation and from public comments from the ford ceo. I primarily work with Ford vehicles (comma.ai, self driving addons) so this is a personal knowledge dump from various service manuals, car hacking forums and the like

Im driving 2018 Skoda Octavia (3rd generation). No internet, no anti-theft, no subs. It has touchscreen radio, but basically everything have a dedicated button still (whole clima control, including heating seats, front/rear glass etc). I touch it like twice a year. You can get it AWD and my avg is around 8-9 L/100km (I drive rather energetic and short trips, it can do 6 L/100km when I try).

4th generation is where the mess began. Colleague is driving one and I wouldn't want it for free. Stuff like simulating motor sound inside cabin (has a dedicated speaker/rumbler under windshield) can only be turned off trough 4 clicks on touchscreen (which is basically non-responsive for 2 minutes after starting), and have to be disabled everytime ignition starts. And so much more its pitiful.

Middle EU

Same car, amazing, never any problem at all.

In the EU new cars have to be connected to the cellular network, this is called "eCall"

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em...

Also, most new tires have RFID chips that can be read out

https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/:

“Permanently readable

- RFID used in tires is a passive technology that doesn’t require a battery

- Tire tag can be read even when the tire is moving or rolling

Remains in good conditions during entire lifecycle

- Tire tag is robust against any tire solicitations, ageing, weather conditions

- Tire tag is embedded into tire and can’t be removed, it's not an accessory

Secure

- Tag is locked after writing by the tire manufacturer

- Robust traceability technology against robbery and counterfeiting.”

And to top it off:

“To ease access to tire data between several tire manufacturers, a new organization called GDSO (Global Data Service Organization for Tires and Automotive Components) has been created. The purpose of this new organization is to provide an information service enabling to retrieve data associated to each tire ID (SGTIN96) in the relevant database. A data referential lists all standardized data that can be communicated through public or private access thanks to a standard API.”

⇒ If the governments wants to track the global whereabouts of all cars, they easily can.

Holy sh-. This is literally disturbing stuff right there. I didn't even suspect that such things may exist! Thanks!

Well I can't help with your other requirements but some Mercedes dealerships will remove the modem at a cost.

It's apparently a common request among people of certain professions.

Not sure if all models support it but I have spoken to someone who has had it done on a relatively new car (2020)

I'm done of the on star GM vehicles you can swap the OnStar for an aftermarket Bluetooth adapter if you like. It's been a few years, but had been looking at used trucks but wanted the Bluetooth support a few years back.

I will say definitely like having a backup camera, and use the steering controls while driving. The remote/Internet support is a bit scary.

Ironically, my challenger came with 3g wireless which is no longer in service, never bothered to get the upgrade.

I like my Kia Soul. It’s a sedan frame in the shape of an SUV. Mine is gasoline averaging 33mpg but there are electric versions.

I bought one of the last models with a 6 gear manual transmission. Shifting is super smooth. This is the best security money can buy.

There is no touch screen of any kind. The stock radio supports Bluetooth and MP3 via USB stick. I use a physically tiny 256gb USB stick currently containing 6000 tracks at 320kbps for a total size of around 60gb. I have not found the file number, file size, or total disk size limitations yet. File navigation, playback, and even options for radon track selection are great.

This car cost me 17k and they cost a bit more now. When I bought mine it was 5stars by JD Power for maintenance and true to that rating the car is years old and has been super cheap to keep in excellent condition provided regularly scheduled tune ups.

The only subscription associated with the vehicle is XM satellite service. The corresponding hardware is built into the vehicle. I have chosen to never pay that subscription.

My version of the car features no internet, network, or tracking/observation features of any kind. People have cell phones for that.

I highly recommend.

The Kia Soul and other Kia models can be hotwired in 30 seconds by popping off a plastic panel housing the ignition, inserting something with the dimensions of a USB A male plug, and turning it like a key. It is a huge trend on TikTok for the "Kia Boys" to steal Kias and go joyriding. My insurance company stopped insuring Kias in my area and cities and states are suing Kia over the rampant theft problem caused by bad design.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/01/30/kia-hyu...

Does Tiktok also have "learn to drive manual" videos? Because I've yet to meet a kid under 18 who knows how.

By the time they realize it's manual transmission they have already smashed the window and ripped open the steering column.

I owned a 2015 Jeep JKU. One of the last years before they started putting in larger touch screen consoles. Awesome vehicle, very customizable, low tech, and can be downgraded further if desired with relative ease. Replacement parts are extremely cheap, as are general repairs. The obvious drawback would be the environmental impact.

Suzuki Jimny is your answer. Look it up. A friend who lives in the Alps has had one for a long time. It's light (>32mpg), AWD, no BS feature. The only problem is that it's been difficult to find.

It's also super cramped.

I'm very interested in this as well, but from a European pov, if anyone has any advice. My current car is a ~2011 (2nd model) Nissan Qashqai, which is wonderfully basic, manual buttons, no sat nav, no screen, basic stereo but a USB connector and BT.

I looked at a Peugeot 3008 at the time, the view in the driver's seat was like sitting in front of Blackpool illuminations [0].

[0] http://c.files.bbci.co.uk/12DD5/production/_103196277_1.jpg

Dacia Duster

20 yrs ago, when living in N America, I owned a 1987 Subaru GL wagon (so car was 16 yrs old at the time). Had low-range 4wd which would go through anything. Did 32 mpg highway I seem to recall. Very reliable. Japanese import, probably better built than later US models. I believe those cars last for ever. Mechanic had one with 700k on the clock. Still a few on ebay probably. Think it had a tape deck not even a CD player, that's the only thing. ;)

You won't find a new one. If you want a car made newer than the last 10 years you would need to look at models sold into fleets which would limit you to basically work trucks/vans and base model ford and GM sedans and subcompacts.

Last time I was car shopping base trim ford fiesta's were under $10k and came with a manual transmission, no power windows, no power locks, no cruise control and a standard double DIN radio. Made less than five years ago.

I've never bought an ex-fleet car before, and don't recall ever seeing listings like that on any of the usual used car sites. Would you please point me in the right direction for how to shop for these?

Most fleet vehicles are sold as normal vehicles to consumers as well. I don't know where to find them, just saw the normal base trim versions of those fleet cars listed on normal used car sites. There's tons of them out there: chevy spark/sonic, ford fiesta, mitsubishi mirage, nissan versa, WT trim f150/silverado/ram 1500 etc.

If you want to buy new and don't mind forking over more money than most would consider reasonable you could probably buy a brand new ford escape interceptor or tahoe ppv which is pretty much guaranteed to be as barebones and 'dumb' on the inside since they're meant to be converted to police vehicles. Don't think many dealers would order them for individuals but if you search around there's probably some out there that will.

govdeals is good for that. caltrans has an auction site for people in california; presumably other municipalities have something similar.

abetterbid has listings of where local auctions are -- these are often good for that type of purchase.

Even the cheap work trucks have built in onstar and such now. If OP doesn't want to be tracked, they'd need to disable that somehow.

Has there been a widespread epidemic of anti-theft systems being used to impair the enjoyment by owners of their cars? Has it happened even once?

I think you're looking for a 20-year-old car. The last car I had that met all these criteria was a 1999 Mazda. But you will have a hard time finding a car that was marketed in America 20 years ago, that realistically gets > 30 MPG.

Not an epidemic, no, but it has happened: https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/canadian-man-says-tes...

Although this represents a legitimate use, that it can be done at all implies that illegitimate uses are also possible. I'm quite content with just a regular key and insurance to protect my vehicle.

here's a salient example https://old.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/15u8wuv/tesla_re...

The new LandCruiser 70 series matches exactly what you want. I believe you can buy them in many countries (U.S. not included).

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a46001237/toyota-land-crui...

Seems that some will reach the US, and I hope so. This seems great, and thank you!

Unfortunately Toyota doesn't currently have plans to bring the 70 series over. I'd love to buy one but for better or worse there's not much of a market in the US for a stripped down Land Cruiser with no power windows, power locks, heated seats, etc.

The 4Runner and Lexus GX are also built on the LC platform and share tons of parts. If a 70 series fits your needs then either of those would be workable as well. Absolutely none of them would meet your stated fuel economy requirements however. :)

Under what circumstances would a BJ70 get over, or anywhere near, 30 MPG?

Ah, totally missed that part. I was mostly thinking about the low/no tech angle.

30MPG and AWD is already a pretty tough combo to satisfy. Guess it points to Subaru.

2016/2017 BMW 340i is the hidden answer, if you want something more modern and luxury.

- Comes in (rear biased) AWD

- Can be found in stickshift

- Can get close to 30MPG in highway driving

- Can disable most of the stuff if you’re willing to get your hands dirty, and CarPlay is an easy add on head unit replacement

- B58 engine, which is pretty much proving to be one of the most reliable modern engines

- More power than you need on the streets, but you’re not paying for M parts and repairs

I traded mine in a few months ago since I wanted something else, but man do I think back on that car fondly. It is hands down the last good modern car - and if you get really lucky, you can find them in RWD!

That's my kind of car. Supposedly gets 32MPG, but it's premium so more equivalent to 28, still decent.

Yeah... they're getting harder to find due to people catching on, but man they're good.

Yeah, the 2020 Tiguan I just got averages 27 if I'm lucky. You'd probably have to get a Honda CRV or something smaller like that.

I believe Mazda is the mainstream brand with the most recent botnet-free cars. Definitely double-check but I'm pretty sure they only started adding internet connectivity in the 2019 model year. They also emphasize physical controls, but AWD is hard to find in this vintage.

I got a 2019 Mazda3 sedan a few months ago and I'm very happy so far. It has a few more features than I wanted, but I was reassured by a family member who is a mechanic for a Mazda dealer that everything is very reliable.

I really like that all the auto stuff can be turned off if you want, and all the capability of the screen but still having physical buttons. Plus I got 36mpg on my first road trip with cruise control set at 85.

Have you considered purchasing a newer car that you can modify?

I would assume that it would be trivial to just remove the antenna for the mobile data and once that's gone then 1, 2 and 3.

As for the touchscreens you always have buttons on the steering wheel so you will have to be content with that.

I'm concerned that really new cars are always expecting to be able to connect eventually, and that as a result it would start having issues after being disconnected for a long time.

I don't think they implement that into the cars as developers have to consider that a car may be unused for a longer time and perhaps even be completely discharged.

I think this would be the best approach for you as you would get all the advantages of having a new car while still remaining "off-the-grid" as long as you don't bring your phone with you.

If you look in the car's manual, you may find a fuse for these you can pull as well. May be easier than disconnecting the antenna.

Check out Volkswagen that have been built between 2019 and 2021 (MY for Canada, US and EU might be a bit different). They usually come with Android Auto already (worth it for traffic and music - you can use OsmAnd or alternatives as well if you want zero tracking), BUT all the climate and radio and steering wheel controls are still physical buttons. And at least for Canada there are is no cellphone module in the car. There actually was for US market, but apparently since it supports max. 3G and the network has been shut down US wide end of 2022 they are truly offline as well now.

Which country or geo are you located in? That is a huge factor.

Are there kinds of vehicles that are completely off limits for you, eg because of difficulties parking, the environment you live it, etc?

Does it have to be new? If not, how many years back are you prepared to go?

If you are in North America, AWD/4wd puts you in a special zone: some light trucks and SUVs, a vanishingly small number of wagons, and Subaru.

If it has to be new, layering on your reqts 1-4 pushes you away from anything premium and towards lower end models. And (sadly) it also pushes you away from the very newest models. For example, if a truck is acceptable, a 2022 Ford Ranger instead of a F-150.

Located centrally in the USA. Not much is off limits assuming it's not too huge. My target is something that's reasonably compact but can still comfortably seat four.

Doesn't need to be new, but I'd prefer not to go back more than ten years if it can be helped.

Our first-gen Audi Q3 is a "small" SUV that could meet your stated requirements as a used car. I think 2018 model year was the last year of this (first) generation in the US market.

It was given high predicted reliability ratings by Consumers Reports back when we were shopping for it. And ours has been reliable. However, regular maintenance can be costly. I think it shares a lot with similar vintage VW GTIs, so you might be able to find a VM-oriented independent mechanic who could take care of it.

It's a 2 liter turbo 4 cylinder. It has the haldex clutch style AWD and ours can get around 30 MPG on highway trips. I might see 24 MPG around town if smoothly cruising, but it easily dives to 18 MPG or worse with too many red lights or stop and go traffic. This is pretty typical of all the small Audi turbos unless you get to the much more recent mild-hybrid setups.

This first Q3 generation started ~2011 in Europe, so the cabin tech is quite dated and minimal. Our basic "premium" trim level has no connectivity other than bluetooth to phone for calls or music. It has a rather small screen for the reversing camera and music/phone/settings.

I detailed my “hidden option” here if you’re interested - it might be close enough to what you’re looking for, or at least give you another path to run down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39073265 (Responding since the thread is a few days old and if it’s helpful you might want to get a notification or whatever)

Edit: also to be clear, when I owned mine I disabled all phone home bullshit and the car had no issues.

Thanks for the response! A decade ago I had a BMW 330 xi circa 2003. It was super fun to drive, but the plastic components that made up the cooling system needed to be replaced or repaired every month or two. I sold it because I was tired of the constant overheating. I take it that newer models have more durable parts, then?

BMWs from 2000 - ~2013 were... problematic, but BMW has mostly solved all of those smaller issues over the years and I would argue that they're rock solid at this point.

i.e, all to say: I never once needed to worry about replacing those parts, nor did I ever during my multiple years of ownership. I would be shocked if they're an issue on that particular model.

GTI. Amazing car.

Hell yeah; my Mk5 everyday drive will be 16 this year.

Adding to the list of 2010s-era Japanese cars, the 2nd gen Mazda3s have good reliability without the "Toyota tax." If you don't want to go with a 10yo car, current Toyotas will let you disable the 4G modem by pressing a series of buttons, and have physical HVAC controls. There's pretty much no getting away from touchscreens in current cars, though. The only alternative is Mazda with their selector knob, but I've found it more distracting when I rented one.

You might need to be a bit flexible on the "modern" requirement in order to get what you want/need.

Being familiar with fairly recent models(in the EU), if you sacrifice the AWD/4WD requirement, you can find some low-end minis/hatches that will do - if you would consider them. Likely the case in the US, too.

Going "up" comes with at least some of these undesirable(for you) features for all new cars I can think of.

AFAIK the only candidates that meet these requirements are older model cars.

I just bought a 2016 Volvo XC70. Only 40K miles. It checks all you boxes except the MPG (I think it's 28). It'll replace my 2004 XC70 - which only has 120K and could probably run for another 100K miles. But I was ready for an "upgrade" - including a backup camera and Bluetooth and USB port. I'll put on Blizzaks like I have on my current Volvo, and I'll be able to go anywhere in most any conditions.

Edit: I've a well-serviced 2004 XC70 for sale.

Personally I’ve found it overall more beneficial to get over the tin-foil-hat and desire-to-own mentality b/c I end up worrying less about things I can’t control and have more options for things to buy.

In 15 years, every car is going to have internet, touchscreens, and subscriptions. Good luck then.

I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but: any "K2 Platform" GM "truck" (Sierra/Silverado/Yukon/etc) and be "de-clouded": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW4Q7NNSBME

Just buy a base model Subaru?

Pre-2000 Toyota anything. 4wd required, then get an older Rav4. I prefer 4Runners but you're not going to get 30mpg. If you can get by without 4wd, then get a Camry. Best car ever made in terms of reliability / maintainability and dead simple. Huge trunk space too.

Volvo 240 - if you can find one arguably most reliable car ever; and without any modern features

In the comments they said they used to drive in the snow with FWD but prefer AWD. They might not be okay with RWD. I personally loved sliding around my 240s in the snow but that's not for everyone :)

Was in the same boat. 2018 Rav4 Trail ticks several of those boxes and has been good enough.

2013 Infiniti G37x.

No internet or cell built in.

It does have a touchscreen, but only used for built in gps.

Climate, radio, etc are all physical buttons.

No remote anti theft, but if someone has physical access, any car with an OBD II can be taken over to a limited extent.

You could also go with a ford ranger.

I have a 2014 (ICE) and a 2022 (Hybrid) Toyota Corolla, and I'm happy with both. I'm not really a car person, but they are good for people who aren't really car people. They both "just work".

Oh wait technically there is a touch screen in the 2022 one, but since I forgot it was there I guess you can tell it isn't very distracting.

2016 or earlier subaru outback

Toyota just released a hilux that's so bare bones it doesn't even come with seatbelts by default. Maybe find that locally and start adding only the features you want & see how much that costs?

Homologation of vehicles for import is... non trivial to say the least. This route would only end with your brand new truck in a crusher unless you really, really like doing paperwork.

They’re illegal for import to the US

VW passat entry level trim

Same question, but amending the requirements:

- touchscreen for camera and entertainment system is okay, for anything else - no-go

- not an EV

- no automatic breaking

- automatic gearbox

- SUV

- preferably on the higher end

Is there something satisfying the requirements from Mercedes or Volvo maybe?

4. Touchscreens - I'd say these are useful for running android auto or apple car play? - But this would fall into your tracking/internet criteria for Google at least.

All I need is Bluetooth and/or AUX. Head units get crufty and are hard or impossible to upgrade, unlike my phone on a magnetic mount.

I'm curious your objection to a touchscreen when it sounds like you are just using a phone with bluetooth? Wouldn't a phone with a touchscreen represent the same tracking + safety hazard?

I used to have a 15 Rav4. There was a shitty touchscreen but if you were just trying to interact with it minimally and just wanted to be able to pause music or skip a song, there was physical buttons on the steering wheel so you'd never have to touch/look at a screen. It fits all your other criteria too, except the mpg.

There are important differences between these two touchscreens, though. One being that I use one of those windshield suction mounts so that it's in the line of view of the road much more so then below the center console. The other being that my fingers can tactilely guide themselves using the edges of the case with very little concentration on my part due to my much more frequent usage of the phone than to the head unit.

And CarPlay won't even necessarily work as a reliable aux. I've been in plenty of rental cars where somehow my music lags or stutters over it. It's trash.

> Touchscreens. They are a safety hazard.

That's true. But keep in mind everyone have them now. They can be the threat to you.

A car that does good on crash tests should also be very preferred now :)

How often are people touching screens? I have a 2023 BMW and it’s all screen. But, I can usually set it once and not touch it again! Am I crazy?

I imagine it depends on what the screen is used to control. I tend to adjust things like climate control fairly often, for instance, or the radio/music player. I've seen crazy often used things that require the touch screen in some cars, too, such as wiper speed

Maybe the Ineos Grenadier?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineos_Grenadier

Pricey, but seems to check my boxes. Thanks!

Ah yes, the Grenadier - BMW engine and modeled after a Defender. Certainly a paragon of reliability right here.

The engine has a great reputation for reliability, given proper service.

As near as I can tell, and older used car. Most of the the ones made in the last decade or so are problematic, and new cars are simply unacceptable (to me).

So many weird “you don’t need AWD” takes. Like it’s a badge of honor to use an inferior tool for a job, as long as you get the job done? Bizarre.

You don't need AWD if you drive in a tropical/sub-tropical city or suburban environment that will ostensibly never see snow or muddy conditions.

Ha! Granted. I took it as understood there’d be snow.

Difficult to get rid of all those but I found my Tucson Essential boring and reliable.

Maybe a commercial vehicle. If small enough.

Otherwise buy or fix an older vehicle. Or go nuts doing an EV conversion.

I would love to do an EV conversion of an old Subaru, but I'm not the handiest with cars myself, lack suitable garage space, and have not found any shops anywhere in the US that do conversions for anything other than classics. If you have a lead on EV conversions for 90s-ish cars, I'd really appreciate it.

It was years ago but the guys at EVTV were reverse engineering Tesla stuff so you could scrounge parts from wrecked ones and make things go.

https://store.evtv.me/ and https://youtube.com/@EVTVMotors

It’s expensive. It’s almost certainly never worth it. But it looks like it can be hella fun.

Ford, get a low end V6 F150, 30mpg, 4x4, and you can get them as bone stock as you want

What kind of F250 gets 30 mpg? Not seeing any over 20.

Did you mean the Maverick?

There is none. I’d be surprised if you can reliably get 20mpg in an F250 that’s not diesel.

Sorry, I meant f150 and my big thumbs failed me.

The ecoboost v6 150 gets 26 highway

I have a 2012 Tacoma TRD OR. Other than only getting ~22mpg it fits the bill perfectly.

I think Suzuki Jimny still comes with a cd player instead of infotainment.

a citroen 2CV or a renault 4L !

just joking :) it's just that your comment on the snow made me think of several video where they make a joke of other car in the snow

Hyundai Kona model 2020 but it's not 4x4

Hyundai has a terrible privacy situation

Audi All-Road? Surprisingly versatile cars

can you buy a recent car and hack away the tracking features? e.g. disable gps / trackers, microphones, etc.

I'm concerned that they have phone-home features that will go haywire if they haven't been able to connect for too long. If I could be convinced that wouldn't happen, then I'll use whatever violence is needed to disable such features physically.

See my other comment - current Toyotas will let you disable the 4G modem with a series of button presses.

Mazda CX-90

Seems promising. What do you like about them, and is there a particular year you'd recommend?

- No touch screen, but a screen w analog controls

- analog controls, buttons, knobs for all internal functionality like temperature control, sunroof, seat control

- plugin hybrid

- reasonable mileage on only gas

- electric only mode for city driving

Corolla

Subaru Forester

Ferrari

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