System76 Thelio Major Powered by AMD Ryzen Threadripper 7000 Series Performance | Hacker News Reader

System76 Thelio Major Powered by AMD Ryzen Threadripper 7000 Series Performance

phoronix.com

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I bought a System76 desktop a couple of years ago with an rtx 3090 for some AI work and have been super happy with it.

It was a bit expensive, but everything "just works", it's super well built, and I've had no issues for 2 years. They definitely know what they're doing

(not affiliated, I just like it)

Their support is really good to. I've never had customer support help me sort out linux kernel issues before.

We get all developers at our company System 76 linux laptops as their primary dev machine (Lemur Pros with 40 GB of ram)

That is good to hear! Framework has not been helpful on either minor or major issues when I've tried working with them, even the forums comingle AMD and Intel laptops without clear distinction muddying the waters as to what issues are relevant to a given user.

I've had the opposite experience, personally. There's a ton of helpful information on their forum both from community members and employees. Getting NixOS on my AMD Framework 13 took some doing and the forum was super helpful when it came to various issues.

That said, I _do_ agree that the information isn't as well organized as a result of the nature of its creation.

I use Pop OS on a custom build and have a similar “just works”. Looking at S76 hardware for my next upgrade now.

I'm sorry but nVidia proprietary driver and "just works" doesn't belong in the same sentence. Every Kernel version update is a crapshoot. Will need to wait for the new nVidia opensource support that's supposedly around the corner, any day now.

My experience has absolutely been that nvidia proprietary drivers "just work" including during kernel updates on arch linux. Maybe there's some sort of QA going on by the distro to only ship kernels that work with them? I don't know. For me it just works.

I can mirror what gpm said, I’ve never had a problem with the proprietary nvidia driver. The only annoyance is the requirement to reboot after an update, but that’s pretty standard everywhere.

>I'm sorry but nVidia proprietary driver and "just works" doesn't belong in the same sentence.

No issue for me on kubuntu LTS and I am using NVIDIA proprietary drivers since 7 years ago, I even experimented with various drivers to make wine games to work and never had issues. But maybe *ubuntu gets better testing and support from NVIDIA then other distribution,

I've been using laptops with Nvidia dgpus and the proprietary drivers under Linux for about 3 to 4 years now, and I've literally never had any problem with the graphics card, the driver, its integration with my system, or anything else. The last year on a rolling release (openSUSE Tumbleweed), too. Maybe that's just me though, who knows.

I sort of agree but for different reasons.

I’ve never managed to get my GTX 1070 working on Linux without any caveats, though currently I’m closer than I’ve been before. If you’re happy using X11 life is relatively easy, though you probably end up needing a compositor to solve tearing - and if you have mixed refresh rates you’re seemingly out of luck even then.

Wayland is better with mixed refresh rates, and now mostly works. I say mostly as XWayland is still broken - you have to disable GLAMOUR and rely on software rendering for X applications. This is where I’ve currently settled as most software I use is native Wayland anyway.

Supposedly this’ll be fixed with a protocol change for explicit sync - https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests...

Of course if you have a newer GPU that can take advantage of Nvidia’s new open source kernel drivers with Nouveau and you don’t need CUDA this is all irrelevant.

Just chiming in to say I've had a Linux system for years with Nvidia gpus and I've never had an issue with it

I can chime in and say that I've had numerous issues over the years, every few months. Particularly when I want to update my kernel. It was a nightmare. Now that I am free from them I won't buy their products anymore because of how annoying it was.

I'm interested in their laptops but I'm a bit afraid support won't be as good since I'm in Europe.

All developers at our company get one of these delivered as part of their onboarding. They're pretty amazing. My only gripe is I re-imaged the machine and getting all of the drivers working and configurable is kind of a pain in the ass (the byproduct being the fans are going 100% always)

I treat mine like a server, sitting in a rack. I ssh into it to create ad-hoc test/dev environments. It's really fast and reliable. Love it. Having 64 cores and 512GB RAM is a treat.

I worked for a company a few years ago that issued me a System76 laptop. It was ok. Weighed a lot and was made of cheap plastic, and it also had issues with the fan. However, for a Linux laptop with open source hardware and firmware I was ok with putting up with those niggles. Glad to see they are still rolling along.

I have no experience or interest in their laptops, personally. My laptop needs are very different from my compute needs.

Where do you work? Is it normal to be able to afford to bling out like this on new employees?

System Initiative ( https://www.systeminit.com/ )

Sounds like a nice place to work at.

> the fans are going 100% always

Can this not be configured via the bios? I imagine there should be a fan curve setting somewhere in there.

It's custom firmware and a daemon that controls it. I haven't spent the time to get it configured properly

I have a top of the line System76 Laptop collecting dust. Completely broken multi monitor support (yes I tried the support route), it overheats underload, it fails to sleep properly, its extremely heavy and is made out of cheap plastic, and the keyboard well…

On the otherhand my Macbook Pro is a superb dev machine.

I had a similar problem when I got one - died 2 weeks after warranty/return window ran out so I was left with an expensive paperweight. Which is a shame because I wanted to like them.

To be fair, the System76 laptops aren't comparable to the desktops (Thelio line).

The laptops are whitelabeled iirc. Whereas the Thelio is designed in-house. I love my Thelio personally - nice form factor + easy to open up and add drives etc.

They're working on an in-house laptop.

https://github.com/system76/virgo

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36115413

Intriguing! I recently got a Ryzen Framework 13 and I'd be impressed if they can hit that level of quality.

And my wife's 2021 Macbook Air fails to sleep if it's connected to a Dell monitor.

On the other hand my Framework is a superb dev machine.

Apple fanboys, they just can't resist barging into threads talking about how much of a fanboy they are.

Purchased a system 76 Galago 2 a couple years ago. The motherboard failed just over one year old. System 76 would not replace or give me a discount on a replacement board. Ended up throwing the thing away and will never buy fron them again.

So you paid for 1 year of warranty, and expected them to give you free labor for a replacement or a discount on a part replacement?

Not sure any other company would do that either, if it's out of warranty you pay parts and labor, that's just the way it works.

My work has had some pretty poor experiences with their laptops. 2 different models both have had thermal issues where the computer locks up during basic web browsing, agnostic of the Linux distro.

Note that System76 laptops are not built or designed by them. They're whitelabeled.

These Thelio desktops are in-house, and they are way better than the laptops.

That's great info. I have an Adder laptop and both my hardware and software experience are poor...

Not quite correct. They're built by Clevo, but they're co-designed.

That said, the described symptoms are something that should get fixed by calling support.

(Prebuilt) ECC RAM Speeds are always disappointing.

But: imagine having a company selling workstations and tuning your memory a bit too much on the fast side. Having you computer behave incorrectly is much worse than it just being a little slower that a similarly specced computer.

Well, I would love to spend extra money for them to verify and guarantee that the RAM is stable at e.g. DDR5-5600. However, maybe I am not part of a big group with this one, and since I am currently not in the market for this kind of workstation, maybe the target audience would literally be zero.

I do like the aesthetics of their cases. They look really cool.

I really like the funnel for the CPU cooler, always wondered why more cases don’t create air barriers between components like that.

You would have liked the Apple Power Mac towers during the PowerPC days

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G5#/media/File%3AA...

it was confusing in the middle to get "DIY Build" in the middle of the benchmarks.

does that help the review?

ctrl+f "ecc": no matches.

meh. still a consumer laptop.

This article is about a tower desktop that has ECC RAM.

The system is $10k, the CPU costs $5K, the rest of components at most $3K, so I guess that means $2K profit on each system?

Even if that math is correct, it's a bit naive to consider that $2k 'profit', contribution margin might be a better definition.

And why be upset that 20 percent of the price isn't "cost"? Think they're going to put things together and deal with a customer for free?

The ‘I have the ability to perform this job and therefore I shouldn’t have to pay for it’ logic.

As it turns out, the cost of designing, testing, and selling a product include more than component costs.

System 76 laptops are usually very pricey, but this is actually a reasonable margin for a good desktop system assembler.

AFAIK they are just rebranded "Clevo Computer" systems. On the downside if you order from Clevo you will be asked for upfront payment and then you have to go to court to get your money back :D ... so ordering from system76 gives you at least some assurance that you won't get stiffed.

They are a large enough customer of Clevo that they get consulted on product design and changes. When Clevo ships something to system76, system76 already knows what hardware is there and that they have drivers for it. If you buy elsewhere it might look the same and seem to have the same specs, but Clevo might have put in some chip without linux drivers.

do they ship ISO keyboards meanwhile? I'd rather buy system76 but US ASCII keyboard is a deal-breaker.

which are the design differences in hardware? I do not see any real differences other than branding which isn't also offered by a bunch of other clevo resellers. having secureboot and system76 firmware would be a huge benefit and in my view the only value-add but that I you can do yourself because it's FOSS and there is no difference in HW

There's a lot. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414

You may find reading like that informative.

It's perhaps not surprising that the laptops that Clevo ships vs those they make for System76 are different. The fact that system76 ships coreboot and an open EC firmware should be a first clue.

Also, for the keyboard: Many or most of their keyboards are configurable these days. See https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator

The term for "the company that actually manufactures the computers for another company that sells them" is Original Design Manufacturer, ODM. All companies have them. https://www.unleashedsoftware.com/blog/oem-vs-odm-explained-...

Dell's supplier list is at Public Supplier List - Dell https://i.dell.com/sites/doccontent/corporate/corp-comm/en/D...

I know they have a keyboard configurator but that isn't a replacement for an ISO layout though.

Also I came across the thread in the past which you linked, where System76 debunks these assumptions. And I totally agree that a lot of work goes into this. But until now I have not actually seen any difference in chipsets? Custom firmware and branded Bios yes, and a lot of hours goes into verifying these things which I'm happy to pay for. But there is afaik no difference in the chips. You can also re-use the firmware / coreboot (e.g. from s76-DARP9 on a clevo-NS50AU) without issues.

This is an annoying amount of effort though and I would rather get this from system76 if they sold it with ISO keyboard than having to do it myself.

> But until now I have not actually seen any difference in chipsets?

System76 is not Apple. I don't know why you'd expect them to have a wholly new chip set.

Maybe you can flash a given Clevo with the "equivalent" system76 firmware. Maybe you can't. I don't think you're going to get support from either if you do that, though.

You can ask them about it; they're pretty great about responding honestly.

> System76 is not Apple. I don't know why you'd expect them to have a wholly new chip set.

I absolutely don't :)

I'm replying to this statement which I think isn't correct:

> it might look the same and seem to have the same specs, but Clevo might have put in some chip without linux drivers.

Thing is, there are plenty of affordable Clevo reseller, but I'm not sure System76 laptops are 'just' rebranded Clevos?

they are not if you consider the effort that goes into Pop_OS, firmware, coreboot, custom-BIOS and all the testing that is required for it. It's in many ways a phenomenal deal if this is all you need. And considering that you can re-use these things on a Clevo I'd rather support System76 in what they do.

However if you don't care about Pop_OS and really insist on an ISO keyboard then Clevo (or something like Tuxedo Computers) are better options.

When it comes to hardware a Clevo is a Texedo is a System76 is a Sager (and a bunch of others)

> When it comes to hardware a Clevo is a Texedo is a System76 is a Sager (and a bunch of others)

1. That's not necessarily a fact; I don't know that it's been established one way or the other. There may well be small variances in design at the hardware level

2. In a modern PC, firmware is a gigantic factor in how well an OS works on the hardware. See all the troubles with ACPI for a starting point. Even non-obvious things like fans depend greatly on firmware.[1]

In short, if you want to run Linux, buy a Linux computer, with support for as long as you plan on using it, from a company that supports Linux on the hardware.

If you don't, be prepared for random glitches due to the mismatch between OS and firmware.

[1] https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1322954630448427011

It comes assembled? Presumably that means also it was tested and has some assurance that it works… I imagine they have some labor cost in there too

> This System76 Thelio Major review sample was configured with the AMD Ryzen Threadripper 7980X 64-core processor, 4 x 32GB DDR5 Micron MTC20F1045S1RC48BA2 DIMMs, 1TB Crucial T700 CT1000T700SSD5 NVMe SSD, and AMD Radeon PRO W7900 graphics.

Graphic card is like $4000. Board for threadripper could easily be $1000.

The $10K system cost I mentioned is not for the review unit, but for a cheaper configuration with a Radeon RX 7600 GPU ($250). See last page.

And you can go to their GitHub repos and view all of the specifications for the hardware (which is under an open hardware license), look at all the driver code, and follow their development of PopOS!

I bought from System76 in large part to support this kind of organization.

A 25% markup on component cost is shockingly low to me considering the work that must have gone into developing and assembling this. Not to mention the development that goes into the OS. If I had a good use case for this product, I don't think I'd be unhappy with the sticker price.

It's kinda silly though.

Linux is not a good OS if you aren't into tinkering. Installing your own OS shouldn't be hard for any Linux user.

Now I guess if your expenses it anyway it doesn't matter.

I can write drivers, but it would take me a long time (I've never written driver so factor in a learning curve). Or I can select parts that linux has drivers for - but again it would take me time. I can assemble a computer, but it will take me time. My time is not free.

It takes at most 4 hours to put a computer together even if you're new.

If your time is worth more than 500$ an hour congrats. Then you can have a shop put it together for 150$ to 200$.

What are you going to do when it's time to upgrade? Spend a few thousand on a new CPU and keep going or throw it out and buy a new pre built?

The System76 machine bested Phoronix's DIY setup. So clearly they aren't equivalent.

I don't see how this is possible assuming all the parts are identical.

If I'm too afraid to build my own computer I'll buy a Mac

Components are not identical. The cpu is, but small things like the case is different and that can make a difference (cooling)

As with a lot of things, you can outsource that tinkering to someone else. Seems like a sane business model to me.

I am not paying for the install but for their work.

Try installing Windows 7 on a new laptop or Windows 11 on a Chromebook some time. Lots of stuff will not quite work right.

You don't know how much they are paying for components. (Hint: It's not retail)

Dealing with customers is a PITA and dealing with suppliers is a PITA, at a 20% markup they're doing you a favor. The one of the reasons bulk discounts exist is that each interaction with a customer is expensive as is the process of finding them.

I mainly sell software but I offer customers hardware to go with it as a favor to them at ~30% markup and it is usually much cheaper than what they can get elsewhere - keeping things under one roof on on one contract makes things easier and we make enough money on the software side we can safely eat potential extra warranty costs on hardware. You'd be surprised but if you let them customers will try to run server software on a 10+ year old laptop and then complain to you when it crashes.

They specially tune their own drivers, firmware, etc.

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