Offering a different view in the idealistic capitalism camp. I don't think using starvation as a cattle prick even works to do what people think it does. People need psychological safety in order to want to work. They need to believe they will get something from the work they put in, not just the threat of starvation.

However, _taxes_ are, at the end of the day, taking money from individuals, via the implicit (and sometimes explicit) threat of violence. Taxes (as in money collected with the threat of violence) are immoral.

Capitalism in it's idealistic state seeks to give everyone agency in what they do, and let the market reward or punish those actions.

However, of course, while communism requires the creation of "the state" (and therefore taxes) to enforce the state of things, capitalism encourages the creation of "the state", so in the end it doesn't really matter.

I guess capitalism gives you a few minutes before "the state" is created.

Social programs are good, in fact, great! Having safety nets lets people take risks they otherwise would not, and it's those risks that can advance society.

However when you knock on my door and say pay for this social program or I will xyz, it's not a social program anymore it's social order at the threat of violence.

The "or else" with social programs needs to be "or else the place that you live will be a terrible place to live"