Heat exchanger masks for cold weather cycling (2019) | Hacker News Reader

Heat exchanger masks for cold weather cycling (2019)

coldbike.com

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I don't feel the need for this for commuting by bike, even in cold Norway. Mostly because I for commuting am never that out of breath that my lungs hurt.

However, I use the Lung Plus variant often when cross country skiing. When it's -15C and below, pushing myself for an hour or more outdoors can make me cough all evening. Lots of people have cold induced asthma from training too hard outdoors in their youths. But with this I'm fine.

Also, the main point for me isn't necessarily the temperature, but that it retains more moisture. -15C can feel vastly different in humid Oslo, compared to the dryness of the mountain pass Hardangervidda. This feels like it "helps" avoiding dry coughing.

I don't really like the mask variants. If covid thought people with glasses anything, it's that masks fogs everything up! My Lung Plus mostly fogs if I'm standing still, then I breath straight ahead and into my glasses, otherwise it's fine. My girlfriend however recently bought a "OXYO one", which is the same concept. But it has more of a "snorkel" bite piece, and moves the air to the sides instead. So it's a bit smarter in that regard.

I guess looks is the main drawback. And how the saliva freezes, heh, look at the icicle in my picture. This is me the other day in -24C:

https://imgur.com/a/NXm8P79

I considered a lung plus but the risk of tripping while running and it hitting my teeth made me buy a mask instead which also covers the nose. Icicles form on that too though.

That's why I added a string to it and around my neck. Then I can just spit it out with little consequences if I approach something scary. But for skiing that's mostly corners at the end of a steep hill. For running I guess a fall could happen at any time.

The lungplus can be worn between your teeth and compresses nicely if you have an accident. But spit it out is ofcourse better if you have the chance.

My problem is when it's that cold my nasal tissues swell and close up so I'm only breathing through my mouth like I had nose plugs. Unpleasent

I am not Norwegian, but I live in Norway and I do as the Norwegians do. If many neighbours go skiing, I can go skiing. The temperature reached -30C around Oslo this month and the absence of skiers in the Marka was a clear indication that I could stay home without feeling bad about it.

Haha, I approve!

I was actually one of those in Marka. The problem wasn't really getting cold. It was that cold snow doesn't compress to a form, it just gets really crunchy. So even in fresh tracks the snow is still somewhat "loose", and there is really no glide at all. The sound just makes lots of noise for each movement, but you get no speed.

That’s interesting. It was very cold snow for a while but I haven’t tried when it was super cold. I may try next time this happens to satisfy my curiosity. The snow is much faster since a few days.

I haven't tested how it is with the new non-fluorocarbon glide waxes, but definitely with the old stuff the very cold snow was a killer for stripping wax out of the base. Probably would do wonders with a fresh round of Swix TS5B melted on the glide portion of a cleaned sole, then wait 10 minutes and reheat the wax for extra durability. Then sikling and light brushing with the medium bronze. And just some VP30 over base binder for grip.

My impression is that fluor mainly shined in wet or dirty conditions, and weren't that big of a deal in colder temps other than durability. At least I've had problems with -20 snow all my life, so even before the prohibition, heh.

Maaaybe TS would make a difference, but no way I'm shelling out that kind of money for a normal day in the mountains. Mostly using PS6 as a base, and then perhaps something more specific for the daily conditions if warmer, but seldom anything more fancy than PS, maybe HS for a long trip.

Come up to the Yukon!

The colder it gets the more people are out. I rode my bike to work every day of the year, plenty of times past -40.

Friends were advised not to go running at -55C (-67F) because it can freeze your lungs. So they went walking instead.

There are breathing help for that, feels like a cold summers day. Well, that's what the article is about after all so I guess you guys know about it :-)

That sounds very cold for biking. Do you use studded tires or winter tires for bikes? Isn’t frostbite a major concern?

I studded my own tires by putting screws through from the inside out.

Frostbite can be a problem if you stand still or if it's really windy, but usually not something to really worry about. Not only did I ride to work every day for 3 years, I also went for a walk every single day at lunchtime to get sun on my face. Walking, outside, past -40C is really no problem. The days the wind was blowing from the north and the windchill was past -65C were a different story.

"I do as the Norwegians do"

Yeah... About that. How's well are you walking on ice? (Also an immigrant)

I'm in Trondheim and it's been wonderfully covered in ice. I watch kids run on it while I resign to slipping spikes onto my shoes just to stay upright. (I don't ski, but I have made sure to go out into the weather like "normal")

I’m originally from the Alps, so I had experience with snow, ice, and skiing before immigrating to Norway. However, I do not have the same balance and skills as the average Norwegian regarding Nordic skiing or moving on ice.

Without spikes, I walk on ice like a penguin and I struggle. I have no shame about using spikes, it’s magic and also a lot safer.

I am Norwegian, and I use (running) shoes with ice spikes when conditions are icy, even though I'm just going to the store.

Currently I'm happy with Icebug shoes; https://icebug.com/no/shoe-finder?usage-area=running&terrain...

Have you tried using this this with full size (downhill) ski goggles? It'll enclose your eyes and glasses from your nose. If you get good anti -fog goggles (expensive) you should be able to mostly or entirely avoid the fogging.

Not just because of the fancy lens, but some ski goggles stick so for out that your exhale tends to travel up and along their sides, and not over the lenses.

I've been thinking of grabbing one of those fume hood helmets where the head covering has a generously sized visor, and hook up the pipes to a backpack-located heat- and air-exchanger. Possibly even inject the warm air from the top alongside the transparent material. How nice would that be in freezing cold! Like a cheap DIY space suit.

Just be careful you don't end up with a system where you breathe the same air in and out and suffocate! Like a child using am adult snorkel, where they only move the same air back and forth and pass out.

Any link for the "OXYO one"? I can't seem to find it.

Here's where she bought it from https://www.foss-sport.no/blunds/168592/oxyo-sport-varmeveks...

Edit: and I've seen it in loads of various sport stores in Norway. But from all my searching I only find a few Norwegian results. Making me think it's either a Norwegian product, or rebranded by the importer. But reverse image search doesn't really yield any similar looking products either.

Thanks!

>And how the saliva freezes, heh, look at the icicle in my picture

it's probably condensate from the humidity of breath, no?

Yeah, mostly. But when it thaws it's quite sticky, so definitely some spit as well!

The site is down, so here's a working archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20240125111236/https://www.coldb...

I used to commute on bike into Boston year round from 12 miles away for a few years.

Getting dressed in the winter was always an art and I often thought about making some kind of a clothes chooser website that took into account the temperature and a bunch of other factors.

I wish I had known of these masks. Keeping your glasses not fogged up was always a challenge.

Winter biking in general is no joke around here because of the weather and the drivers. I started to wear a camera after I got hit by a car... see: https://youtu.be/2hJ_hzjlQsw?si=28yM2wmbCiQuOlJ7

Living in central europe I rarely see Temperatures lower than -5°C. But when it's colder than that, I just put up my ski goggles and they are great for that. Also a full face mask will be added at -8 and lower.

Without goggles at those temperatures my eyes would start hurting after around 30 minutes of cycling. Might not be healthy to get the eyes freezing either.

I cycle to work everyday with my roadbike. My current job is quite close (only ~5-6km!) and below 1-2°C I wear my rain pants and only at like -10 and lower do I actually dig out the ski mask. For everything else my Oakley Jawbreakers work great.

Generally it's not as bad as many people think, it only becomes hard if the trip takes longer than an hour and temperatures are below -2 -5 degrees.

This. Short distances (~15 minutes of ride time) are very doable with no extra cycling-specific equipment, just a thicker jacket, pair of gloves and a warm hat. You kinda get used to it.

As a tangent, as long as you're alive and kicking your eyes won't freeze. Eyes are in sockets inside your head and the heat radiating into them is enough for them not to freeze. (Otherwise prehistoric humans living in cold climates would've been thoroughly screwed.)

Won't freeze, but extreme temp. difference might lead to long term damage.

Also, I don't think prehistoric humans, living in colder climates, had to endure long term exposure to direct wind at ~8m/s, used machines that created such scenarios, or relied on feeding themselves by running after prey.

I have never felt it, so what do you mean by extremes? I do not think a daily commute for 50 minutes in -15°C at ~25km/h on a bicycle is extreme. I never feel affected. I also go Nordic sking in -30°C for hours I have never been affected. The sun with snow blindness is not fun though never doing that mistake again.

I suspect this is one of those cases where people who don't live in cold climates overestimate how rough it is. I also live somewhere where -30C is not rare and it's perfectly normal to spend hours outside in that weather. You just layer up, but outside of mountain skiing I don't think I've ever worn goggles.

I also live in a cold climate. I get very bad eye problems below -15 C. at -10 I can handle just using my normal glasses but below -15 I need goggles. At -20 I put on a balaclava with goggles on top. It all depends on your age and medical problems.

The temperature problem can also be underestimated. You really need the right clothes. I have a little list on my phone for what to wear at what temperature and I pack some alternative clothes to add if needed. In case wind was harder than anticipated or it's so slippery and bumpy that you will never get any sort of speed.

I use Lungplus for breathing. I have two models, one for below +10 C and one for below 0 C that heats better. Asthma isn't funny. Cold allergy neither. I'm probably not totally sane going biking at -35 C.

I can only imagine what it's like living somewhere actually cold. I've got pretty bad asthma (severe enough that I'm on a maintenance med on top of the rescue inhaler) and allergies. Cold is a big trigger for my asthma, and yea, after doing the conversion 10C is about when I'd start to really notice, but I probably start seeing some effects around 15C or so. Luckily I live in a temperate area, the coldest it ever gets is about -5 or so. My other big asthma triggers are exercise and my allergens - which are all the basic boring stuff - pollen, ragweed, mold, dust, etc. So basically walking outside is like getting punched in the lungs. I started wearing N95 masks basically when I was able to get my hands on them (so, early 2021) and eventually settled on the 3M Aura actually mentioned in another post. They really do warm the air quite a bit, enough to mostly not trigger my asthma, and help a lot with the allergies too. I've also only gotten sick once in 4 years, and that was last year when I took my mom out for a mother's day meal at a packed restaurant. I really try to avoid restaurants during peak hours. Ironically strep and not COVID. So, basically, starting wearing them for one health reason, have kept wearing them for that and for several side benefits that were happy discoveries.

I have to be really careful as I have a number of other chronic conditions, including diabetes, and between them, and the meds I take for 'em, I'm usually rather fatigued and run down at the best of times. It's quasi-stable, but I've been hospitalized several times foe respiratory issues, and I'm only in my 30s, and to be frank, none of what I have exactly gets better with age.

I'm sorry to hear that, I can only too well imagine how it's like. I'm just like you but several notches better and 20 years older and no diabetes. It helped a lot to start biking and I'm getting better and better thanks to the lungplus. But I do feel like I got hit in the lungs now and then if I don't start very slowly. After 15-20 minutes I can start with uphill and higher speeds and all feels fine again.

It's a really vicious cycle. Right before the pandemic, I had a decent routine up, was down about 40lbs.. still big, shut down...then the pandemic, everything shut down (including my gym, permanently). About a year later for no real reason any doctor has been able to really explain beyond "well, you're diabetic and have unfortunate bone structure" I developed pressure ulcers on the bottom of both feet nearly simultaneously, in roughly the same (mirror imaged) spot. The second broke out just as the first was starting to heal in earnest. Basically spent June 2022-March 2023 on near bed-rest as that was the only way to actually get them to heal. They've both since healed, but my feet are never really gonna be the same again, plus there's nerve damage etc that basically means I don't have a ton of sensation down there anymore. Which is a long way of saying... you know how in TV commercials for gyms and the like it always says "consult your doctor before starting any exercise routine"... that's my actual life.

re: you really need the right clothes

I was out the other day cycling in -13°C, and I was the perfect temperature, didn't sweat, wasn't cold. The next day it was still -13°C, so I wore the same clothes, but I was cold, my fingers and toes went numb, and I ended up cutting the ride short. The difference between those two -13°C days was the humidity. It`s huge!

Ah yes, we don't get that often here. It's mostly dry cold. When it's humid some clothes quickly just becomes ice cakes and have no function any more.

Maybe when going fast on a bike, they'd cool down faster. I remember from ice skating below 0C that if I didn't wear sports glasses, my eyes would hurt afterwards in the warm dressing room. I've always attributed that to them "thawing" although that's probably not literally what they do.

Knowing people who've worked in Antarctica I'd challenge that statement. They wouldn't take their gear of for more than a few seconds.

The 300 club might be of interest :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_Club

note very quickly with support staff and training not to injure themselves...

I live in the Canadian Prairies, run outdoors year round. One thing I've experienced a few times is my contact lenses feeling much more rigid, which I've attributed to them starting to freeze up in extreme situations. Typically near the end of longer, 3+ hour runs where I'd be facing the wind and moving slower. Temps lower than -25 celsius and a 10 km/h wind cools things down fast.

I built a site like this for running (https://dressmyrun.com). I've gotten a few requests to make a similar site for cycling. I don't ride much myself so it's a little more difficult for me to judge how it should work. But I keep meaning to at least take a stab at it.

It will be a bit harder because of different route profiles. On a bike, you can both be quite cold when coasting downhill and steamy hot going uphill.

Even road quality can be a factor: huge difference between a cold -1000m elevation drop at -6% on a road where I can blast out of the curves at maximum watts and a cold -1000m elevation drop at -6% where I have to tiptoe down constantly pulling the brakes. The former can be tolerably comfortable with much less clothing despite much harder wind.

Can I just say thank you, I love your site! Despite being a regular runner it's much more convenient than trying to remember what I like to wear for a particular forecast.

Thanks so much, I appreciate that!

I love this site! Wish I had found it sooner

Nice! I am going to give it a try for my Sierra Nevada foothills location. On cooler mornings I tend to add a light Smartwool beanie and a second shirt layer (long sleeve over short sleeve), weights according to my feelings about the temperature.

Cycling is much harder to plan for than running due to much higher variability, but it's compensated by lots of cycling accessories / layers that are small enough to be carried on the bike. Arm warmers, skull caps, long-fingered gloves, glove covers, shoe covers, thin vests, and so on can handle a high range of temperatures.

I commute by bike 2 or 3 days a week outside of Portland Maine. Last week had the coldest days so far at 17F (-8C). Generally my face and breath are always fine fully exposed, but my fingertips always get very cold even in the 30s. My ride starts off with a couple uphills so that warms me up pretty well, and I alternate pulling my fingers into the palms of my gloves from one hand to the other. The traffic is not usually _too_ bad, so the joys of biking generally outweigh all the other irritations!

I messed around with connecting my external bike light battery pack to hand warming elements that I wrapped around my handlebars. It kinda worked a little bit.

That's a neat idea! Maybe I could rig something like that up with one of my Ryobi battery packs.

Just try the barmits already :-) With the right ones you can use your summer gloves inside.

Summer gloves?!? what kind of crazy talk is that! =)

Hand protection

They make "hand deflectors" for motorcycles that are basically little windshields for your hands, have you considered trying something similar on your bike? Or are you not moving fast enough for the wind to be an issue, it's just how cold it is?

The wind definitely affects things, but its also partly glove choice and mostly less good circulation than in years past. Gripping the bars and also keeping fingers on the cold aluminum brake levers speeds the heat drain too. Mittens would be better but I have to find a non-bulky pair. I will look at these deflectors too, thanks!

Handlerbar-mounted bike mitts help a lot.

Bar Mitts/Bike Pogies!

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/smitten-with-mittens-...

Thanks! Those look exactly what I need! I struggle to keep my hands warm below -3C.

I will look into them, thanks! I couldn't actually read the article, it said "Thanks for reading 20 articles this month, please sign up" and blocked the rest of it, even though I've never been there before. Will try on my less ancient PC!

I'm wondering how they accommodate shifters and brakes but I'm sure they do since I saw them all over NYC last time I was there.

There are several versions that fits different bike handles. I still haven't found anything that fits mine though so have to survive with double gloves.

There are also lobster gloves where you pair two fingers next to each other to keep warm and still be able to use the breaks and shifters.

I have something like the lobster gloves. They are REI three-finger gloves where the index and middle finger are separate, and the ring and pinky are together in a shell pocket and each in their own liner pockets. They are my best ones so far and fingers don't get quite as nippy that way. But the shells are bulky and have extra long cuffs. Tradeoffs!

I have Dogwood Designs pogies on a flat bar with SRAM NX shifters and SRAM Level brakes and they work well. I saw a guy's blog post [0] that shows them on cruiser bars, just to give you an idea of the variety of setups they can accommodate.

They make them in two warmth ratings, down to -15°F [1] and below -15°F [2]

[0]: https://jnyyz.wordpress.com/2022/01/11/dogwood-designs-pogie...

[1]: https://www.907bikes.com/product-page/dogwood-designs-winter...

[2]: https://www.907bikes.com/product-page/dogwood-designs-winter...

Thanks, will have a look! It's hard to find alternatives here, everyone seems to be using gloves.

I vastly prefer them over thick gloves. You can wear a thin glove and work the shifter/brakes more easily.

Ah, Boston cycling looks like a joy.

You might find this useful https://loudbicycle.com/

I have the silent version: a fake pigeon attached to my helmet. Most of my interactions with cars and people are great because of it.

Ive only had a handful of problems - like the one I linked in the video above.

> I often thought about making some kind of a clothes chooser website that took into account the temperature and a bunch of other factors.

I had a similar idea once upon a time, it'd take in your proposed route and what time you'd be at each point then look up the weather for each point and generate a "ride weather forecast" (since for 80-100 mile rides you can be out for 4-6 hours the weather in the UK can change on a dime) with appropriate clothing.

In the end it was just easier to look up the forecast for each area manually but it'd definitely be something I'd use if it existed.

Weather Underground used to have a great tool for this that they called Road Trip Planner, but it broke and they took it down several years ago rather than fixing it. While trying to find the exact name i found a forum post listing a couple alternatives (Accuweather, get-there-dry, Weather Channel, EDD) that are also 404 now. But the hunt did lead me to aviationweather.gov which has hour-interval forecast coverage for US airspace e.g. https://aviationweather.gov/gfa/#temps

I'm still very sad about the final demise of the weather.gov EDD! I didn't use that clothing feature, but found it to be the best radar. I especially liked using URLs to my own images as pointers on the map.

"You're going on YouTube my friend!" <3

If only you had made it more obvious and framed up his license plate so it was clearly visible in frame. Although, he did look a bit older and seems easily confused. Maybe he should run for president?

I wasn't trying to produce a viral video. I was mostly just pissed off that he insisted that the bike lanes weren't on the inside of THAT road, which they are.

FWIW, he got doxxed after it went viral. He turned out to be a judge from south Boston.

oh, that's brilliant. this video is a classic example of "fuck you! i'm wrong!"

i did love the moment you can hear your "hmm" as you start to contemplate what's possibly about to happen.

I live where temperatures go below -20C routinely in the winter. I also cycle year round (commute, groceries, etc), and there's definitely an art to gearing up for physical activity in that type of weather.

Majority of face coverings seem to have the same weakness: moisture. Exhaled breath dampens them, and if that's not gross enough, as inhaled breath pulls cold air in, they freeze up.

The best solution I've found is the 3M Aura valved N95 respirator. It's breathable enough so that even with moderate to high cardio activity I don't feel short of breath. The exhalation valve routes most of the warm moist air out -- while condensation drips off the valve, the filter material remains relatively dry and does not freeze up. This, combined with a helmet, balaclava and wraparound ski goggles makes for a pretty impervious getup [1].

The heat exchanger feature is an interesting one. One idea that immediately comes to mind is using body heat to warm the air intake. A piece of avalanche safety gear called Avalung [2] could provide a starting point (eg, if worn under winter clothing instead of on top of it). I imagine other solutions from industries where people work in hazardous air conditions could also be adapted.

Personally, I'd love me a little DIY hazmat rig that can effectively filter intake air, neatly deal with the exhale moisture, while rocking that post-apocalypse punk aesthetic. The era of insidious airborne pathogens seems to be upon us, and with the climate upheaval, the oppressive forest fire smoke of last year will seem quaint so very soon.

1: https://i.imgur.com/CheNY96.png (earlier iteration before the valved Aura)

2: http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2012/12/the-avalung.html

> 2: http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2012/12/the-avalung.html

"One thing to keep in mind is that this will not make you invincible. Many avalanche victims are injured or killed by the trauma – the force of an avalanche – and not by suffocation. The Avalung will not of course do anything to help this. "

Now, I'm thinking as part of the backpack system, it has a protection system similar to the Mars rover that inflated a large inflatable shield that allowed the landing without any kind of chutes. So from the backpack, this shield would inflate either from a manual pull of a cord or when it detects you've taken a tumble.

That's pretty standard equipment as well, actually :)

My backpack has a handle, and when I drag it, a huge thing inflates and folds out. This both protects you, and supposedly makes you not buried as deep. ("avalanche airbag")

Downhill skiers also have inflatable vests on them. They are automatic, and blows up inside their suit around the torso when they fall. ("dainese airbag")

    > supposedly makes you
    > not buried as deep

Not just that, but if you start out deep it should make you "float" to the top while the avalanche is in motion, at least for some types of avalanches.

Put small and large pebbles in a jar and keep shaking it, the larger pebbles will rise to the top. Same principle.

Interesting, I was half joking, but I did fall into the the rabbit hole looking up the 2 airbags you mentioned. The avalanche airbag looks like it's just meant to protect the head from whiplash. I didn't see how it would prevent from being buried or protecting the head when slammed face first.

The dainese airbag site[0] just sent me into "is this a joke" mode with the video included on the page. It just has the feel of a parody. That poor guy doesn't look comfortable at all. The editing makes it have that intentionally bad continuity used when making parody infomercials. The arm is awkwardly posed with hand in pocket, cut to hand waving, cut back to hand in pocket. It's very hard to take seriously.

[0]https://www.dainese.com/us/en/dainese/smart-jacket.html

There is no special need to protect the head from getting slammed in an avalanche. What the bag does is that it protects you from being buried and crushed beneath a ton of snow. Both by making you "float" higher when caught in the avalanche. But also by taking up space when buried, so that when it deflates you're in a "pocket" and not getting crushed.

Haven't seen the video before. But In often see racers being "bulky" when skiing down after an accident. Looks funny, but it's useful.

You're quite literally describing a James Bond gadget: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-IpqOHZMuDI

But yeah I do think it's plausible, albeit on a smaller scale than Bond's.

Yes! this is much closer to what my mind pictured. I'm not a Bond fan, but of course he'd just so happen to have this. Next, someone will show a Batman episode where he has this on his belt clip.

> I'd love me a little DIY hazmat rig that can effectively filter intake air

I posted a review of a little device I've used for a couple years now, plus some tips and tricks. Aesthetics are up to you (I "de-logo" mine with Magic Eraser), but functionally it's been great.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34378478

Thanks! Wow btw, the comments on that thread, what a combination of emotion and ignorance, whew. It's unfortunate to have to put up with these attitudes.

The device you posted, it has a key element I'm after: forced air. The aesthetic is far from ideal though -- I'm after something more Dune and less CPAP / General Hospital vibes. Partly because of the aforementioned ignorant but forceful attitudes.

The air intake hose seems like it would get in the way, I wonder if there's a more graceful way to handle that.

The article doesn't describe exactly how these work... I could see 2 potential designs:

Design 1:

A high thermal mass piece of porous material, which air flows in and out through the same holes. As air is exhaled, the material warms up. As air is inhaled, the material gives collected heat to the incoming air.

Design 2:

As above, but there are two sets of paths through the material. The paths are in a checkerboard pattern so there is good thermal conductivity between them. One set is for incoming fresh air and the other for used air. One way valves ensure air travels in the correct direction through each hole.

Design 1 is great for keeping both heat and moisture (air will be pre humidified on the way in). However, it has the downside that all of the air in the tubes will be re-inhaled in each breath. Effectively your lung capacity will be reduced by the volume of the mask.

Design 2 is more mechanically complex, gives you very dry air to breathe in, and will be prone to clogging with condensation, but has the advantage that you aren't rebreathing any CO2 laden air. And just 2% breathed back in causes "complaints of drowsiness and poor air"[1]

[1]: https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/chemical/carbondioxide.htm

They're all design 1. Here's a manufacturer link with an air flow diagram for one of the recommended ones: https://www.ergodyne.com/nferno-6970-extreme-balaclava-hot-r...

That said, the volume of air that could be retained in the foam heat exchange insert is quite small (eyeballing it, maybe 50-100ml?) compared to normal human inhalation volume, about 3-4L per breath during moderate exercise.

100 ml / 4 liters = 2.5%.

2.5% of CO2 laden air (~50,000 ppm) + 97.5% fresh air (420 ppm) = 1640ppm.

1640 ppm of CO2 is very much into the 'feels drowsy and hard to concentrate' region.

However, per https://www.omnicalculator.com/ecology/co2-breathing-emissio..., the air a person breaths out has only 4% CO2, reducing that number to 65ppm, right?

(40,000 x 0.025) + (420 x 0.975) = 1409.5 ppm

Right you are!

I guess the two valves in working masks are then quite essential, and normal breathing masks better have as little extra space for air in them as possible.

Does that stay true when exercising? At rest, with a tidal volume of 500ml ish, lungs are least 5/6 full of stale air, round down to 3% ish CO2.

When exercising, the tidal volumes are far higher (2-3L), and you breathe faster, so the lung air is at least twice as fresh as it was at rest, probably more, since fresh air is functionally 0% CO2, and you're moving maybe 6 times the gas volume in each direction.

Does that massive change in volume and diffusion gradient (at least at the start of a breath) means that you might be able to tolerate a higher CO2 level in the inhaled air?

I'm using Lungplus version that works with something similar to design 1 and have no problem with drowsyness at all. The benefit of breathing warm moisturized air outweighs the very small amount of stale air. I measure it to about 25 ml by filling it with water and shaking it out again.

Lungplus is just a silicon wrap around a package of corrugated metal wrapped around itself so the air pathway is straight and very open and easy to breath through. Each pipe is about a millimiter in height and 2-3 in width. It still heats up the air very well at least down to -35 C at which time the freehub starts freezing and I can't bike anyway :-)

I use something similar to design 1, when deer hunting in really cold weather. Similar looking gadget in silicon. Moisture does become an issue - as water will accumulate over time. It is marginally better than wrapping up in frozen scarves.

I use an integrated device of design 1, it's called a "nose". Higher air resistance than the "mouth", but provides the heat and humidity exchange.

I used a PSOLAR Heat Exchange Mask (https://www.amazon.com/PSOLAR-Heat-Exchange-Mask-Full/dp/B00...)

for high altitude mountaineering and it worked very well for keeping warm but it didn't work like that and wasn't really a 'Heat Exchanger'.

What it actually had was a moisture absorbing substance stuck on a plastic comb like structure.

When you breathed out damp air from your lungs the substance would absorb the moisture and when you breathed in dry air it would release the moisture making it more humid.

This actually made a big difference to body heat as breathing in cold dry air onto hot moist lungs is very cooling from evaporation.

It also stops your lungs drying out. If you read Everest books they all get dry lungs and chest infections the the psolar thing seemed pretty good at stopping that.

I get the impression these are similar - really moisture exchangers and the 'heat exchanger' thing is marketing.

Growing up in Iceland[1] I learned to breathe in through my mouth, out the nose, with the chin tucked into my collar.

It requires tightly fitted clothing and folded clothing layers, and a bit of practice, but by doing this you can breathe pre-heated air, as it's been passing over your body.

As far as modern solutions go, USB charged heated socks and other actively heated clothing has become cheap and light in recent years.

1. Yeah it's not that cold there compared to further inland, but usually windy as hell. I'd mostly use this to avoid inhaling snow.

>learned

It this an unnatural kill you were taught like swimming or figured out what works best for you? I'm just imagining Iceland kindergarten giving winter breathing tutorials. Which is great. I feel like a lot more common life hacks should be transmitted this way.

Like it blows my mind some cultures normalize ass washing, and subsects of others clump toilet paper.

You just learn how to do it, it's not part of the school program or anything :-)

If you're standing around in the cold it's a natural impulse to hide half your face it your jacket collar. I'm surprised I'm the first one pointing this out.

P.s.: I'm the proud owner of a bidet.

I've spend way too much money on different scarfs, neck gaiters, face covers of different fabrics and performance material to keep my face warm during winter and moist free over the years. I instinctually tried mouth breathing, but all it did was draw fabric closer to mouth and made things wetter. I think maybe I didn't fully transition to breathing out through nose because it feels unnatural. Maybe it's one of those things where the solution is obvious but hard to adopt. So now I'm wastefully going through a few boxes of masks during winter months. TBH, only time I remember breath through mouth and exhale through nose is maybe meditation videos. Certainly not in any of the random winter wilderness survival videos. Which is why I was curious if this is some like cultural knowledge being passed.

We discussed this among ourselves when in kindergarthen and school while doing the mandatory skiing classes. The most sensitive part is the nose so you breath out there to warm it up. Less dripping nose as long as you can keep it up. If you forget, the nose directly freezes up and your nose will be dripping the rest of the trip :-)

I was so baffled that the heat exchangers were so cheap, I had always imagined them to cost a fortune so I didn't even think of getting one until a few years ago. But I guess they did cost a lot more 20 years ago...

Very helpful review, but imho, unless you’re biking in extreme cold (below 0F), you don’t need these. I’ve been cycling in 0-30F weather in just a cloth balaclava for a decade without issue (and I’m not especially resistant to cold).

Do you wear glasses? Fogging is a big issue with most face coverings for me.

I do wear glasses, but they have an anti fog coating. Also, I prefer to leave my nose out of the balaclava and instead cover it with a neoprene nose cover (NozKon), which helps prevent glasses from fogging (and doesn’t squish my nose).

It's a problem for me as a skier. Give Blackstrap products a try, I've found them to be much less problematic.

I swear by the Seirus Masque for both skiing and cycling.[0] The neoprene fits tightly to your face, but lets your nose exhale freely, which minimizes glasses fogging. They’ve got a hundred variations now for different levels of comfort and warmth.

https://www.seirus.com/products/original-masque

I've got a large beard, so I doubt this would have a tight enough fit even with a nose hole.

Yes, the author mentions that -5°F is the boundary to “really cold”.

I struggle to breathe cold air merely jogging in 40F. I think I should try a regular, cheap mask before dropping $77 on an Airtrim though.

You might have cold-induced asthma?

I've done more 30min-2hr sub-zero F bike rides here in interior Alaska than I can count, as well as many 5+hr rides for things like races and backcountry trips. Some of the coldest days are at -30F or -40F. I use a simple wool balaclava as well, and it works great.

The author here seems weirdly obsessed with the idea of "breathing cold air" resulting in heat loss? While breathing cold air isn't necessarily pleasant, in my experience, if you're actually _exercising_ (raising your heart rate to say, 120 or more?), then even down at -30 you very quickly run into the opposite problem. You're generating a _ton_ of heat from exercise, and you're sweating your ass off. Most of the time I end up periodically pulling my face covering off to help cool down.

I'm not above trying one of these, but it feels a bit like a solution in search of a problem. Maybe I'm underestimating the difficulty of the average bike commuter's ride, and they're not regularly getting their heart rate elevated? But I can say that in 5-10 years of winter bike commuting, racing, and backcountry travel, almost everyone I see is using a balaclava, despite these things having been around for a while.

I just designed this 3D printed "antimask" to keep my face warm without fogging my glasses: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6438319

Somebody suggested adding a sloping nose/mouth shield, and I said what I really needed was a heat exchanger... nice to see that they actually exist.

This is kind of cool but I do have one question: I notice a lot of cold-bragging going on, people talking about how it's negative -20C or -30C outside, etc. When I google typical winter temperatures in the area those people live it usually turns out that the quoted temp is the 10 or 20 year record.

And don't get me started about windchill...

Just looked and close to me the record low was -37C but we still get -30 every winter for sure and -20 on many days throughout the winter. (Quebec)

Probably just a normal distribution

Yeah, that's legit pretty chilly. Quebec City in winter is on my bucket list.

Go visit the Carnival de Quebec! Stay in the Ice hotel! Spend too much money!

Temperatures can be extremely variated in very short distances depending on where the cold air gets stuck and where it moves away. Just now when I did my evening ride I had to stop after 5 km and put on goggles after the temp went down 10 degrees compared to the start location. I badly regretted not putting on the extra cotton layer.

On the other hand some people use an IR thermometer to measure temperature outside which gives the completely wrong temperature. Can be 10-20 degrees lower than air temperature.

As someone whose body is getting more cowardly to cold by the year, I'd wear these as a pedestrian. I decided to keep wearing optimus prime style face mask during winter because it does a good job of keeping my face shielded without getting too moist.

This would be perfect to integrate into a stormtrooper helmet. You would get eye protection from the wind (not sure if stormtrooper helmet lenses had polarization or UV blocking) along with the heat exchanger.

Stormtrooper lenses had like 100% blocking - explains their aim.

Can't believe that with all that technology (FTL travel, etc) the empire forgot to come up with dynamically adjustable lenses.

And that time the one stormtrooper walked directly into a doorframe and knocked himself out. The Emperors finest folks!

The recent cold snap in Edmonton had me commuting in -37°C. I've never had to rely on face coverings while cycling.

Last August however I attempted to cycle from Edmonton to Vancouver but was shut down due to wildfire smoke. My next chance to attempt is again in August, and I don't expect the smoke conditions to be any better. I could go for a cycling or sports specific PAP.

If you can find time a few weeks later September is much better. Less smoke and fewer tourists-especially the rental motorhomes. Weather is a crapshoot year round but August and September pretty similar (unless it snows in either month!) Note: I'm sure you know this, it's more for any potential bike visitors.

It was cold in Calgary too, but you definitely had it worse!

I used the 3m filter mask biking in the wildfire smoke a while ago. There is a blowout hole, which makes it much easier to get stale air out. The sport-specifc one from MEC made it hard to get fresh air when biking up hill.

I used the air warmer mask during this last cold snap. It made it so much more comfortable! Last year I was fine biking in the cold snap, except for one time biking up a hill. Actually breathing hard, I got a lot more cold air in my lungs, and ended up with a cough for a week. Wanted to avoid that this year.

3M Aura N95 respirator (the one with an exhale valve) handles both situations extremely well.

I bought an oversized polyester fleece balaclava with drawstring at a truck stop. Because it's too big for me it leaves room within the balaclava, so it retains warm air, but still breathes well. I haven't tried it in arctic temps but it works decently at -10F with wind.

I have worn the cold avenger (just google, it should be in the top 10 hits) in the south and north polar areas, and for high altitude.

It's surprising how warm the air gets, I actually had to take it off at times whilst working hard.

I tend to get exercise-induced asthma when I run if it’s near or below freezing. I wonder which of these would be suitable for that.

Exercise-induced asthma is likely caused by dehydration of the airway surface: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6834710/

Increasing the air temperature is not enough, you also need to increase humidity. It also helps to keep the body hydrated by constantly drinking water with electrolytes throughout the workout.

Interesting, thank you for that information! But if it's not primarily cold-related, I wonder why I don't experience it as intensely when it's warmer? I guess because of the dryness of cold air? But then, wouldn't cold air absorb less moisture?

I live in a desert climate, and I frequently get exercise-induced asthma in the early summer when it's hot and dry. A useful metric is the dew point, for me asthma kicks in when the dew point approaches freezing. If you live in a more humid climate, warmer weather usually means higher dew points, so it's only dry in the winter when the air is too cold to hold the moisture (because dew point can't ever exceed temperature).

Funny, I was just thinking about making something like this during cold weather last week.

Is it just me or the website won’t open?

Your body has a built-in device that does exactly what all these devices described do, along with providing some filtration of air before it gets to your lungs.

It's called "your nose."

https://www.google.com/search?q=athletes+nasal+breathing

I've used both. The nose can't get as much air through it.

You don't live where it gets really cold I take it. After about three breaths your nose is a block of ice and don't warm up anything at all.

Have you considered buying a car?

Thankfully, I have been able to keept the car in the garage and ride at -30. Passed a lot of cars needing a boost though.

My commute is about 20 minutes on bike. At -35 C I passed 5 cars in parking lots with the hood up and in best case jumper cables from neighbour cars. There were a lot of cars that just didn't start any more.

Why? Is he disabled?

Is possible

Times like these I wish HN had a downvote button.

At a certain karma threshold (500?) a downvote button is enabled; the desaturated/greyed out appearance of vdaea's comment indicates that people have been using it.

More info: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#downvo...

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