Huawei's offices in France raided by financial prosecutors | Hacker News Reader

Huawei's offices in France raided by financial prosecutors

cnn.com

Just enforcing the law. Happens all the time

https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/24/google-of...

French news mentions that the alleged crime is atteinte à la probité or lack of probity. In other words, things like corruption, influence peddling and so on.

There are scant few details available, but this might be something more serious than just plain old tax evasion.

While Alcatel, Nokia, Ericsson, had to play by the rules of their countries (not bribing officials in foreign locations), Huawei was able to gobble up most of the bids across Asia and Africa. While the Western telco players were held accountable in their bidding process, Huawei managed to gain a competitive advantage by playing under a different set of rules.

For this reason it's impossible for any multinational to compete against Huawei while following the laws. (at least it was all the way until 2015 and by then the ship has sailed).

The idea that Huawei was just better at innovation etc isn't true either since how much of these (5G) patents came to be created is another horror story.

Eventually Huawei gobbled up all the R&D in France, Italy and Germany that previously belonged to us. Lot of people that got laid off from their previous employer simply switched to Huawei working on the same thing. You could work on cutting edge tech for Siemens in Milan one day, and a few months later worked for Huawei on the same topic.

In no other place was the IP theft so visible as in the ETSI standards workgroups (based in france). At ETSI workshops Huawei was "shining" with their active participation and with European based engineers from Italy, France, and Germany - while the other players were slowly dying and could barely afford sending people to these workshops or put them on full-time job for standards ... The reason they could do it is because they simply didn't have to play by the same rules as the rest of us.

the biggest criminals of course aren't Huawei execs but Telecom CxO's that knew how their companies got ripped off but still decided it was a great idea to create a site in China to off-shore some of the work. They sold out not just their companies in exchange for a fat bonus but an entire industry.

[1] https://www.dw.com/en/siemens-chief-promises-full-explanatio...

Replace Huawei with Uber in the ride hailing space. Or basically the entire crypto space.

Move fast, break the law and buy your way out of the consequences is as much a Silicon Valley play as it is Chinese.

I believe Huawei has a rotation policy where Chinese staff must be moved to a different country after a certain number of years lest they become too "localized" and less useful in promoting Chinese interests.

See! The authorities don't even have a tangible reason, they just search because they want to.

Now, because this is Huawei, I don't disagree per se, but that's a different matter. This company should just be outright banned from Europe.

"A crime that is obscurely titled to those who aren't in France" is not at all the same as "don't even have a tangible reason". If you want to assert that they don't have a tangible reason, what is your actual evidence for that assertion?

Yeah, I'm assuming, but I also make that clear with my statement, that I'm basing my statement only on what the person above me wrote. That doesn't mean either that I believe 100% what I wrote myself, but they're important ideas that should be said anyways because these things are happening whether it's happening in this case or not doesn't actually matter.

> This company should just be outright banned from Europe.

You don't even need a tangible reason! Just because you want to!

No, the reasons go on and on. China is a f***ing wrecking ball, and Huawei is one of their little puppets into the West.

Not only Europe but all Western countries. Not just Huawei but all Chinese companies that have stolen IP.

Odd to me that for companies like Google the state doesn't believe they can get what they need from simple subpoenas, but rather feel they need to forcibly seize records in person.

Unannounced raids allow seizure before destruction.

You can destroy things fairly quickly. The Stasi destroyed more than a million records in less than a night. And in 2024 it takes a button click. https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/en/archives/the-recon...

You assume an upright and just state. Raids are also used by the authorities to:

  1) steal legitimate and legal intellectual property
  2) while they perform the raid, they search for other reasons to find them guilty of something
  3) make good companies look bad to the public
  4) it's not that unusual for them to accidentally destroy or cause damage to property while they perform the raid
  5) maintain oppression that they might at anytime be raided for anything

This is disgusting behavior. The biggest threats to society are the states and governments, it definitely not the businesses!!!

> for companies like Google the state doesn't believe they can get what they need from simple subpoenas, but rather feel they need to forcibly seize records in person

Criminal versus civil. This sounds like sanctions suspicions.

>companies like Google

Is it because Google's mantra is "Don't be evil", therefore they will be truthful with their records and companies not employing such a mantra might destroy evindence therefore can to be raided?

Google did destroy messages that may have been evidence in antitrust suit

They abandoned that mantra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_Files#Kill_switch

Uber implemented a kill switch to prevent government law enforcement from accessing (potentially) incriminating or sensitive information during onsite investigations. When activated, the kill switch would effectively cut off access to Uber's data for the location being raided.

Expecting companies to fully cooperate with state agencies might not always be realistic... I understand why authorities might prefer to directly seize materials or data. It eliminates any potential delay or non-compliance: they basically cut the bullshit.

I suppose such a kill switch could work, but it really depends on the training of the people who would pull that switch.

Would they do it as soon as polite dudes in suits walk in? Would chaos ensue if the switch were pulled in a false alarm? If not, then it's "reversible" and an employee could be coerced into flipping it back, right?

It might just delete hard disk decryption keys. The backup might be in a C-suit's relatives' safe, possibly offshore.

Should count as admission of guilt for all alleged crimes.

"spoliation" is the term you're after.

https://civilprocedure.uslegal.com/discovery/spoliation-of-e...

I love Hacker News... the random things you learn

Not even spoilers before spoilation. But yes every corner a pocket dimension with an expert. Civilization highpoint

I should mention that I never actually saw this proven. A senior lawyer told me it was very hard to make a case of spoliation.

something like this is trivial to implement via a canary token. E.g.: a folder on the Desktop that is named "Juicy-Files" (or something similar) which when opened performs an action (e.g. an alert out of bad, or even deletion of actual secrets in some other location).

Wouldn’t ordinary forensic practice involve operating on an image of the device rather than the device itself?

the comment I was replying to talked about a kill-switch or some kind of method to respond to an intrusion. agree that this would not be useful to defend against forensics on a cold image/drive.

"Pretty please give us all the incriminating evidence you have and definitely don't quietly destroy any documents! If you do, there will be a token fine!"

Totally agree. This is behavior of authoritative and totalitarian governments, who demand to have so much authority and power, that they need to attack and undermine the most successfully businesses, bending the laws to do so (or creating abusive laws that give them the power to do so).

France authorities also recently ransacked Nvidias office in France: https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidias-french-offices-ra...

More and more is it so, that European governments see successful companies as a threat to their power and control.

Governments which are still closer to being democratically elected than the C-suite of these "successful companies". I'll take the lesser of the two evils, thanks.

You 'vote' when you choose to buy or refrain from buying the product. That's a much-louder voice than you are able to exercise at the ballot box.

Yes! Exactly, this too.

These C-suite successful companies were at least built and designed by successful people, who succeeded by being moral human beings at least more moral than most scummy politicians. Even if the C-suite companies are no longer directed by them, which some of them are, their culture of being moral human beings tend to live on.

Politicians on the other hand, like Mr. Trump, are usually born-rich buffoons who do anything to win, and after they win, many of them exercise their power with intolerance and arrogance. Politicians climb the ranks using their money and power, not by developing technical skills, or learning important crafts.

>These C-suite successful companies were at least built and designed by successful people, who succeeded by being moral human beings

The Great Man theory is trumped by the "Went to the right schools and my parents have connections" theory. For both C-suite and politicians.

Politicians on the other hand wield their power on these matters without contention or rebuke - they ransack companies and nobody can say anything or do anything about it! That's the difference.

In the face of politicians vs C-suite business men, you know, it's the politicians that have the authority and power, and they are at the crux to yield it responsibly. C-suite business men are like ants to the politicians - powerless in comparison with the powers of the lawmakers.

As a result, it's not so much of C-suite business men being just, as it's about politicians being unjust.

These people are the same, they are after power and they achieve it in the same way: by being lucky first, and pernicious second.

At least in our neoliberal system all these assholes are counter-powers to each other. Too bad for the environment, though.

> These C-suite successful companies were at least built and designed by successful people, who succeeded by being moral human beings at least more moral

Ah yes, the famous morality of big tobacco, as well as big oil, big pharma, big agrochemestry and now big tech.

> Ah yes, the famous morality of big tobacco, as well as big oil, big pharma, big agrochemestry and now big tech.

Big anything?

So what’s the solution?

Usually these discussions get end with everything being miraculously cured if we all go libertarian.

> Usually these discussions get end with everything being miraculously cured if we all go libertarian.

Well, going more libertarian would be a great start.

> Totally agree. This is behavior of authoritative and totalitarian governments, who demand to have so much authority and power, that they need to attack and undermine the most successfully businesses, bending the laws to do so (or creating abusive laws that give them the power to do so).

This is the kind of things police will do if they have a warrant (or the local equivalent) in any sane democracy. Democracy does not mean that we have to let companies get away with crime or nicely tell them before a search so they can destroy evidence.

> ransacked

Search, that’s the word you’re looking for.

> More and more is it so, that European governments see successful companies as a threat to their power and control.

How’s the US government handling Huawei again? Did the Atlantic Ocean close overnight?

Also, what makes you think that police investigations are more common than they used to be?

There is not a single sentence that makes sense in your post.

> This is the kind of things police will do if they have a warrant (or the local equivalent) in any sane democracy. Democracy does not mean that we have to let companies get away with crime or nicely tell them before a search so they can destroy evidence.

Democracy also doesn't mean that the authorities should ransack successful companies on a mere whim. Democracy also doesn't mean that the states and government should exercise their power limitlessly, nor turn their power into oppressing the people.

> How’s the US government handling Huawei again? Did the Atlantic Ocean close overnight?

This isn't about Huawei. The OP above me wrote about Google, and I included Nividia.

> Also, what makes you think that police investigations are more common than they used to be?

Obviously, this isn't something I'm going to be able to prove. Not all my arguments need to be backed by some sort of a sourceable evidence. If you don't want to believe this part of my statement, then don't, it's up to the reader to form their own opinion - that by no means discredits my post, since I'm obviously giving my opinion and you don't have to agree.

> Search, that’s the word you’re looking for.

Ransacked: search through (a place or receptacle) to find something, especially in such a way as to cause disorder and damage.

^ Yup, that's the one.

Governments don't care about "successful" companies (whatever that means) as long as they pay taxes and don't make it so obvious when they break laws that it makes them look bad if they don't react. Governments can and have to intervene if they feel that companies threaten their power and authority. To prevent that, it usually helps to lobby well. Unless they are perceived to be organs of a foreign, unfriendly government of course.

In America, sure. Come over to Europe where successful companies are the politician's escape-goat. "The world is burning, and it's because of the rich, business owners, and high paying businessmen".

Furthermore, the European elite hate the successful american companies with a passion, and they purposely undermine them to help their own companies instead.

I don’t know that you’re wrong, but are the US elites any better?

There have been plenty of scandals where the US has engineered spying to help US companies [1]. Corruption is corruption except when it’s international and in your own nations interest.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/21/business/us-snooping-on-c...

The US government would do the same if European companies would be economically dominant. And it indeed gleefully persecuted Deutsche Bank and Volkswagen (IMHO well-deserved)

Reuters' coverage is equally terse: https://www.reuters.com/technology/french-authorities-search...

CNN Lite: https://lite.cnn.com/2024/02/09/tech/china-huawei-france-fin...

Wow. Never knew about CNN Lite. It loads instantly like good websites should and the content is readable because ads are not flying in from all over the place. Does this work for all CNN articles?

Wow indeed.

CNN lite's html is 15 kB, whereas the full page's html is whopping 1.3 MB compressed (and 3.5 MB uncompressed).

Also good for edge case use.

I use CNN Lite to read the news on my TRS-80.

> on my TRS-80.

Please tell us more!

Holy shit, it's been such a long time since I've seen a website load immediately upon opening the link. It's beautiful.

So in other words, propaganda lite.

Thank you for CNN Lite! That's fantastic.

"Browser Blocked
We apologize, but your web browser is configured in such a way that it is preventing this site from implementing required components that protect your privacy and allow you to view and change your privacy settings. This functionality is required for privacy legislation in your region.

We recommend you use a different browser or disable the “EasyList Cookie” filter from your “Content Filtering” settings (found under “Settings” -> “Shields” in the Brave Browser)."

If there was a prize for the most creative way of hiding "we don't want adblockers" behind a pile of garbage, they'd have just won it with flying colors.

edit: the site doesn't like the "I still don't care about cookies" extension.

works flawlessly with Frefox UO.

Yes, I nailed down the extension it doesn't like: "I still don't care about cookies" whose purpose is to get rid of the cookies nag windows opening on most sites.

Huh, so India's raiding of Huawei on tax charges might not be spurious.

That was Vivo, wasn't it?

Huawei was raided by India's Income Tax authories in 2022 [0][1]

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/technology/india-has-accused-huawei-...

[1] - https://www.wsj.com/articles/indian-tax-authorities-raid-chi...

Good luck France. Remember what happened to Canada after the Meng Wanzhou situation? Wasn't great. Not saying don't enforce the laws, just... good luck.

I would say that those two Canadians put themselves in danger the moment they entered an authoritarian country.

It is ridiculous to expect that one will get a fair trial in these kinds of countries; law just exists there not to protect the general public, but the dictator himself.

Turns out being a diplomat isn't quite such a glamorous job, eh?

That aside, the situation with the Michaels is a tiny component of how the China-Canada relationship has chilled. The Canadian government continually comes out and says China basically doesn't answer the phone anymore, and it's not like the trade relationship is strong, and we have Xi scolding Justin Trudeau in front of the press on the sidelines of global events.

My point is, if you wanna play with China, you better be ready to play.

https://www.chinausfocus.com/foreign-policy/meng-wanzhou-and...

The website you linked is published by the Hong Kong-based China–United States Exchange Foundation, which was founded by a former Chief Executive of Hong Kong.

As the Chief Executive of Hong Kong is somehow "picked" by the CCP, the media can be seen as semi-state-controlled IMO.

If I happened to carry a French passport and was in China now, I'd get out immediately.

I would give the same advice for anybody with a foreign passport. The country is going downhill and there doesn't seem to be any breaks, foreigners will be the first target on the blame list.

What exactly did happen to Canada? Were they wiped of the map or something?

The same happened to the UK here after the Brexit.

Canada isn't real. It's just a Chinese PsyOp.

What is it with Super Powers being in conflict with their own covert ops?

Yup, you didn't hear? Canada no longer exists. Now y'all are gonna have to consume that inferior Vermont maple syrup.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230509-the-key-issue...

Yeah, China arrested Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, the latter later admitted he was used by Michael Kovrig to pass intelligence information to the Canadian spy agencies. [1] The Canada paid them off to remain silent [2].

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-spavor-kovrig... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canada-ready-pay-sett...

Source [1] says:

> China subjected Mr. Spavor to lengthy interrogation sessions, according to one of the sources. He was drugged, forced to sit in a chair for long hours and subjected to threats of execution, the source said. Mr. Spavor admitted to the Chinese interrogators, the source said, that he provided information to Mr. Kovrig.

I'd only be able to trust statements that were made freely. Have either of these two made any statements on the matter since returning to Canada? I also wouldn't trust most plea deals made with US federal prosecutors either -- it's easy for any government to get people to plead guilty to things they didn't do.

As a matter of fact he did. He sued the other Michael in Canada.

I can see where Spavor sued the Canadian government, but can't find Spavor vs. Kovrig (or vice-versa). Still, since returning to Canada, Spavor is continuing to state that he provided espionage intelligence to Kovrig. So that checks out.

> Spavor is seeking a multimillion dollar settlement against the federal government for involving him in espionage activities without his knowledge. Spavor alleges that he provided Michael Kovrig with intelligence on North Korea, which Kovrig then secretly gave to the Canadian government and its Five Eyes allies without Spavor's permission, leading to their arrest and detention.

You're using an "alleges" as confirmation?

Right before Chinese new year, wonderful timing

I believe that everyone's thoughts are influenced by the information they receive. We have some stereotypes about certain countries and peoples. But in reality, we have neither been there in person nor do we know any of the people from there. Our impressions of them are entirely imposed on us by the media, and it's truly sad that we have a negative view of them because of these impressions.

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