I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it.
Kinda. We were open to believing in God. But the start of our journey was just realizing the secular world had nothing to offer us. Then we met a religious homeschooling family w/ 5 kids and they gave us a glimpse of what was possible. So we started swimming in that direction and it just kept getting better the farther out we swam.
> I do wonder what I’d say if/when people question the fervor of my belief though, if I truly converted just for a community with larger families. I imagine “I believe in big families” wouldn’t cut it.
Here’s the thing: if you’re not a militant atheist and you start spending a lot of time around sincerely religious people who you like, you’ll end up believing sincerely yourself. Since you’re secular, I’ll explain it like this: we’re evolved to cohere around a shared system of belief and the appropriate mental machinery will kick in as part of becoming embedded in a religious community. And that’s what I used to believe. But now I know those were just the breadcrumbs I needed to find my way.
But it just didn't work. I wasn't a militant atheist; I just questioned things, and was frustrated when my elders would shut me down and hand-wave my questions away.
I gave up in my early 20s. That was 20+ years ago. I'm still an atheist. I don't have a problem with religious people, unless they try to force their beliefs on others (especially when they try to use the political and legal process to do so). But most folks seem to just want to live and let live. But I no longer think there's something wrong with me, or long to be "normal" like my peers and believe in a god. I can't imagine ever believing, regardless of what communities I find myself a member of.
Questioning things is how one truly reaches God. Your elders failed you.
Some people just hold beliefs because they were born with them, not because they necessarily believe in them. I know these types because I've lived my whole life around many of them. Thanks to them, I've come to despise the modern concept of organizated religions, though I still value religion itself.
This is why I tend to view modern religious leaders as parasites. They convince other people that they [the other people] can't understand religion on their own,that religion is mysterious and only those well versed may speak on the art.
By convincing people of such things, said people then outsource the job of thinking to those select few, and you're left with mindless brains who can't figure out the answers to a child's questions about God.
I ask myself questions, I always do, and I try to look for answers, for each question answered brings me one step closer to God, and by extension, brings me some measure of peace in life.
I know a person who fell in love with a woman that didn't exist. Person A (my friend) was straight. Person B was gay and fell in love with Person A, and then created Person C (fictitious person) with the hopes that Person A would grow to love Person C, and eventually Person B would tell the truth but that Person A's love was pure enough that he didn't care about the deception and wanted to be with Person B.
Hell of a story, but the reason I mention it is because Person A falling in love with Person C didn't make Person C real. How does that work with God?
The acid test of true love for God is that Reality confirms it.
Oh they do- ask anyone in recovery from opioids.
How would you know without experiencing it? The experience of joy someone else gets from anything- physical activity, their own religion, love, drugs (however fleeting) is as valid as yours.
I wager we avoid that kind of love because it boils down to "sacrifice yourself for the good that's outside you". In human terms it's something like parents sacrificing themselves for their children, or friends sacrificing themselves for their friends[1]. Losing something painfully that cannot be replaced in the world. A world where we have all the time, money, internet to distract us from hardship & suffering that brings us closer to goodness.
I personally didn't believe in God until I received a tiny part of his love for myself.
[1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015%3A13&...
don’t you believe that for a second. God does not deal with tiny graces. it’s just a process and then it becomes overwhelming and all resistance is gone. all of it.
Interestingly, this is what turned me into an atheist at a rather young age. A friend invited me to a childrens' religious/social group wherein they explained that most science is actually incorrect; the earth is only 6000 years old, evolution is a lie created by the evil Darwin... that sort of thing. In my head, their version of Christianity fell apart and the rest quickly followed.
You do remind me of one of my favorite Douglas Adams quotes though:
> “Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.”
That’s such an obvious fallacy, you should do yourself a favor and introspect how such an absurd idea came into your head. Who put it there?
To see it’s absurd, consider, have you ever changed your mind about something? If yes, then it’s obviously possible and maybe even likely that you can and will one day change your views on divinity? If course it’s possible, and actually quite common. And yes, it comes as a surprise.
So brainwashing-lite? Man I'm glad whatever "appropriate mental machinery" that was in my head kicked in and got me the fuck away from communities like this.
I'm curious how you interprete "secular"? Cause it seems you're setting it up to mean anti-religion which is certainly not what the usual definition is.
> Here’s the thing: if you’re not a militant atheist and you start spending a lot of time around sincerely religious people who you like, you’ll end up believing sincerely yourself.
I won't question your own experience, but you're being way too broad here. I know many people who are not "militant atheists" but still don't believe in organized religion. I also have a lot of friends whose families are extremely religious - meaning they're around them all the time - none of them has been pushed or convinced to join. They just don't observe prayer etc compared to their friends.
> Since you’re secular, I’ll explain it like this: we’re evolved to cohere around a shared system of belief and the appropriate mental machinery will kick in as part of becoming embedded in a religious community. And that’s what I used to believe. But now I know those were just the breadcrumbs I needed to find my way.
This sounds more like a self-justification than something actually supported by science. Please note I'm not trying to "religion shame you". Just curious. :)
I’ve been having similar thoughts. Sedevacantism seemed like a natural place to look but it isn’t well represented in my area.
I grew up catholic but it was mostly people going through the motions. Yours sounds like a more hippy esque flavor which appeals to me.
There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody should have a problem with you wanting to be a part of a church community, even if you aren't a "real" believer.
There are perhaps exceptions, e.g. if you are intentionally trying to harm the church or members of it, but otherwise the church should accept you as you are -- "true" believer or not.
In practice you will probably find a lot of "bad" churches, so you'll probably have to shop around a little bit.
I really appreciate this view, but certainly some people do have a problem with it. I think it would be especially awkward if you spend a significant amount of your life there, raise kids, etc, but never claim the religion is true. It almost sounds like a cringe-comedy movie
If your values and actions don't align with the religious community, then you should still be accepted, but if you don't have belief, then it's unlikely you'll stay for long.
^ note: by "should" I mean that, at least in my view, a "real" Christian should be accepting and not judge others. In practice nobody lives up to this, but it can at least inform how you should feel, e.g. if you feel judged it's saying more about others than it says about you.
^ double note: "real" Christian is incredibly hard to define. The Bible can be interpreted any way you want. Ultimately what guides me is trying to do what I think is right, using the Bible as one source of information.
Church Crashers