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Comment by rpearl | Hacker News Reader

Python and Ruby are both very fundamentally Not Lisp: Lisp's intentional s-expression syntax is very much a part of what makes Lisp powerful (it lets you write macros very easily, since code and data have the same representation).

Python and Ruby both don't have that. They are alternatives to Lisp, and in the same family of dynamically typed programming languages, but they are not "instances of Lisp's fragmentation" in any way: nobody took a Lisp-like language and from that created Python.

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> Python and Ruby both don't have that.

Python and Ruby have first class functions, garbage collection, dynamic typing, and many other advanced dynamic features, so there is definitely a similarity between them and Lisp. However, the fact that they don't have code as a first class object is definitely a major limitation. In Lisp essentially everything is first class and manipulable at run time.

Sure, they are similar. It would be very strange, however, to argue that they are fragmentations of Lisp in the sense that Ocaml and SML are fragmentation of ML. They may share ideas since they are in the same semantic family (dynamically typed) but that's about the extent of it.

Lisp's s-expression syntax was very much not intentional: IIRC McCarthy specifically wrote that he left implementation of the syntax as an excercise for the reader. As it turned out, very few readers chose to devise a syntax and instead worked on s-expressions directly.

I am dubious of this assertion. The original 1960 paper "Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions and Their Computation by Machine" introduces S-expressions and M-expressions as explicit entities (not as some abstract syntax, but as a literal syntax that people were able to write down). Now, M-expressions never really got used because everyone just used S-expressions, since they were simpler.

Do you have some citation about how he left implementation of syntax as an exercise? I'd be interested to see that.

I think he's kind of close, at least in that it was not meant to be written as S-expressions. AFAIK, the M-expressions were meant to be the main syntax. The very early Lisp docs I've seen were all written in M-expressions, with S-expressions taking the lead something like a decade later. (This was all decades before my time, so it's possible this is sampling bias, but I don't think so.)

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